Why every music lover needs to buy a turntable - discuss.

The only reason for mentioning "specs" is to try and get a handle on why "well sorted analog" sounds so good. Analog preferrers aren't the only people who like their music to sound good. If it makes analog sound good, might it not also have the same effect on digital?

But perhaps you would really rather not know why you like analog so much. Maybe it has some psychotropic effect that causes mass delusion? (In which case, if it is discovered, it will certainly be banned... :) )

AH, reductionism at its worst. Never has and never will work. Certainly not in biology.
 
aaagh master, it all is supposed to start and end with the master tape/file. And that's the original goal of Hi-Fi, reproduce the master recording in your home. How did grasshopper do?

sounds/music emanate as an analog signal and reaches our ears as an analog signal. what happens in between is up to the engineer to capture, that will never change until they invent a way to plant a D/A convertor in our brains.
 
aaagh master, it all is supposed to start and end with the master tape/file. And that's the original goal of Hi-Fi, reproduce the master recording in your home. How did grasshopper do?

Not so good I'm afraid. :( It starts in the creator's head(s). It ends in our heads.

In an ideal world, we would get exactly what the creators envisioned. Heck, in an ideal world the CREATORS would get exactly what they envisioned.
 
Not just my system, a whole Italian audio club, over several days, and several systems, came to the same conclusion. Resolution is everything, well, ,when blind testing and that's what they did. I like most systems I have heard in the audio club. Many interpretations, but resolution is important in comparisons like this.

I don't what those Italian systems consisted of. In any event, if you are ever my way, you are more than welcome to be proven wrong after listening to my system. cheers !
 
Given all your specs ect, you still can't explain why well sorted analog sounds better than digital approximations of said analog sources.
Once again, many serious, careful listeners do not find this to be true :p
 
Just like there are many serious, careful listeners who don't agree with digit heads that 'read' specifications for analog and tout the superiority of digital sound.
Not me, I just like the sound better...
 
sounds/music emanate as an analog signal and reaches our ears as an analog signal. what happens in between is up to the engineer to capture, that will never change until they invent a way to plant a D/A convertor in our brains.
Our "brains" already are D>A convertors. Remember those hair cells (the audio organs in the inner ear that convert sound waves to electrochemical nerve impulses)? They don't operate in an analog fashion; they aren't truely binary PCM-style digital either, but that can more closely model their activity than analog.
 
Not so good I'm afraid. :( It starts in the creator's head(s). It ends in our heads.

In an ideal world, we would get exactly what the creators envisioned. Heck, in an ideal world the CREATORS would get exactly what they envisioned.

Ain't that the truth!!

I was told by a musician a long time ago that the reason most musicians don't have a high-end system (most of them are content with a boom box) is that the music that is in their head is much better than the music that comes out of their fingers, let alone the recorded (he said mangled) version spewing from hifi systems.
 
Not just my system, a whole Italian audio club, over several days, and several systems, came to the same conclusion. Resolution is everything, well, ,when blind testing and that's what they did. I like most systems I have heard in the audio club. Many interpretations, but resolution is important in comparisons like this.

So did an American audio club nearly 3 years ago - http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2632-The-Digital-Analog-Dialectic

May be it's time to do it again - ADCs and DACs have improved in leaps and bounds over the past 3 years.
 
I have perhaps a bit more western interpretation of the oriental concepts, aka for example Alan Watts type stuff. I wish in a ideal world that the music industry actually cared about making good recordings instead of money as the lowest common denominator....funny isn't it, the MUSIC industry...oxymoron

Oh so do I, so do I! It doesn't take away from the fact however that those in the industry that DO care about making good recordings are doing so in a constraint filled environment. That is, down to the tools available at hand too. Just as in any human endeavor, limits are set and you either take them or try to find ways to mitigate the deleterious effects often times creatively.

What I'm saying is the message isn't the medium. If a message is simple and of little importance like a note to pick up a loaf of bread at the supermarket, it doesn't matter if it is a hand written post-it or a text message on your phone. The medium however can be used to reinforce the message but you will find, it is only to give the message more import and not change the message itself. A thank you note hand written in stationary versus a text. A full blown presentation versus a printed report. A ransom note made up of cut out letters from magazines versus an e-mail. I digress.

The creative process is also always influenced by how the creator envisions the message to be delivered. Take Opera. The vocal parts are written in such a way that requires the singers to sing the way they do. The change formant structure allows the audience to understand the lyrics as singing in this fashion allows them to not be masked as much by the accompanying orchestra or even chorus because he knows singing "normally" wouldn't work in the typical opera venues. So, as you say, a lot DOES happen along the way and it starts even before a single note is tracked. Decisions are made and these are hopefully not all made in a vacuum.

RIAA is a necessity just as dither is, as well as compression employed to be loud while staying below 0dB above which all hell breaks loose. Those are limitations set by the medium. So the question is again begged. Do we consider deviations distortions or are they merely decisions knowing that the end products made from the and not necessarily the master itself was an integral part of the whole process? The end product after all is the delivery product. That is where OUR part begins. Reproduction. Given that the LP and Digital copies will be different, fidelity begins at OUR source and those sources are our Files, LPs, Tapes or Optical discs. That makes them completely separate challenges.

That there are many people who find more enjoyment from analog over digital and vice versa is inconsequential to an individual who just wants to enjoy his music collection. Why one likes one more than the other is beside the point in as far as those of us who DO make efforts to optimize both. We too are working within constraints. My analog front end took another leap forward a few months ago and now I have a new DAC on the way, a new Server and ordered a new CD player last night. I'm certainly not a digital hater but I'm also not an apologist for digital. As Gary says, both are getting better. Neither are perfect and I'm perfectly okay with that truth. I do however want more MUSIC and that is MY constraint. If an album comes out that I really like, I want to be able to play it back as best I can whatever medium it comes in. I'm not asking anybody to get on or stay on the train. I just don't want to get off just yet.

In fact the selfish thought of not having more people get into vinyl crosses my mind a lot. &$*%(%^ are driving up used LP prices! Grrrrrrrrr.
 
Ain't that the truth!!

I was told by a musician a long time ago that the reason most musicians don't have a high-end system (most of them are content with a boom box) is that the music that is in their head is much better than the music that comes out of their fingers, let alone the recorded (he said mangled) version spewing from hifi systems.

Another real reason is that they live, eat and sleep music all day long and the last thing they want to do when go home is listen to more music.
 
I don't what those Italian systems consisted of. In any event, if you are ever my way, you are more than welcome to be proven wrong after listening to my system. cheers !

I bet they could "prove" that there's no difference between LPs and MP3s too.
 
I don't what those Italian systems consisted of. In any event, if you are ever my way, you are more than welcome to be proven wrong after listening to my system. cheers !

And we don't know if you did your listening blind, or if you were watching your well sorted table turn as you concluded that at sounded better.

Tim
 
So did an American audio club nearly 3 years ago - http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2632-The-Digital-Analog-Dialectic

May be it's time to do it again - ADCs and DACs have improved in leaps and bounds over the past 3 years.

Yeah, we've been down this road, and Gary was very thorough about it. As a reminder, the bottom line:

1) The respondents explicitly said that they could hear a difference 51 times.
2) 23 times, the respondents explicitly said that they could NOT hear a difference. (45 times if the two blank sheets were included)
3) Of all the responses, 87 out of 171 (50.88%) got it correct

They could have done as well turning the volume all the way down and flipping a coin. I would love to see the same test done with relatively inexpensive DACs, at lower resolution rates, in statistically significant numbers, in true DBT conditions... But it won't happen because no one with the resources to do all of that seems to care. Or more accurately, they can't make a business for it.

Gary, wouldn't the improvement of DAC/ADC technology just make the difference even more difficult to hear?

Tim
 
This thread has officially entered its death spiral.
 
Right, the digital only crowd. I get it.

I'm not exactly sure what this means? "digital only"? I personally have lots of LP's (a few thousand) and even R2R tapes (although no 15 ips); because I choose not to listen to them I am "digital only"?

IMO, in the best of all possible worlds ;) every music lover doesn't need a turntable, what we need is one person with a great phono setup and ADC to make needle drops of all the LP's with markedly better mastering than digital versions for people who have the (inferior) CD's or downloads. Then we could all have the better masterings but the sales figures wouldn't show more LP's sold. I know the music industry could interpret that as people don't want the better masterings, but I could hope they would interpret it as people wanting better sounding masterings in digital format :mad:
 
By all means digitize your vinyl and store them off site.
 
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This thread has officially entered its death spiral.

Maybe it has hit the wall. Let's review:

The measurements, which may not measure everything we could possibly imagine measureing in all possible future scenarios and are, therefore, invalid in your view, say that the differences between vinyl and digital are in the noise, distortion and limitations. Nothing else shows up.

Two audiophile clubs, who by definitiion probably wanted to reach very different conclusions, concluded that they couldn't tell the difference between the vinyl and a digital recording of the vinyl, two generations down (ADC/DAC). And of course you really don't have to accept these findings; the tests were informal, inconclusive. Not that you would accept these findings if they were...

The hard-core vinylphiles here still believe digital is superior. Not just preferred, but superior. OK. You can do that because none of the evidence above is absolutely conclusive. But you have no evidence to the contrary to inform the debate, so yeah, you're right, there's really no place to go from here.

Tim
 

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