Cable burn-in: Is it real or imagined?

[Robh3606]

Hello Jack

'cept that if you look into designer bios you'll find quite a few that have come directly from that industry and many more indirectly.

One of my fave cables (no longer in production) were made from copper ribbon transformer windings from USN surplus.

That doesn't surprise me lots of smart guys and with surplus and the cost of copper just goes to show you smart guys. Why not pay pennies on the dollar, Not like coppers cheap.

Hello Rockitman

So wait, you can't hear the diff ? I remember hearing cable differences back In the 1990's with my Levinson, Aerial Acoustics combo. I must be a rare bird indeed.

Amps yes wires/cables never tried. I will be the first to admit I am a bit jaded. I DIY speakers so I have a measurement system lot's of design software and so on. Been in the mil/space industry for 30 plus years so looking at what done there, basically you take it off the spool and away you go. You don't burn in wires or cables although you do on any part like a resistor or capacitor. I have also measured cables for frequency response and phase and just don't see an issue. Just so you know where I am coming from.

Rob

 

[Occam]

The bottom line...if people can't hear differences between cables and don't believe a cable's sound character changes during break in and or settling, they need to have their hearing checked or need to get a more resolving system. This applies to power cables too. Flame on dis-believers.

Or it could simply be expectation bias. Someone doesn't expect to hear differences between cables and as a result perceive no differences. Regarding break in, I do believe in it. My cables change substantially in the 1st half hour, and asymptotically converge to their ultimate state within a week. If someone doesn't feel my cables aren't approaching their needs after 24hrs, it never will. That being said, I have heard cables that do seem schizophrenic, oscillating wildly in presentation prior to converging to their ultimate state. It is this non-asymptotic convergence that leads me to believe it is not simply the listener acclimating to the sound.

But the major problem is the objectivists demand for 'proof', specifically an indirect one of causality, and the subjectivists responding with unsubstantiated, theories. Theories is too benign a description, hypothesis, or more appropriately wild ass guess is a better descriptor. And the subjectivists read this twaddle and repeat it, and among the believers it becomes 'accepted, common knowledge', which the objectivists mercilessly mock, and rightly so. FWIW

 

[garylkoh]

I have also measured cables for frequency response and phase and just don't see an issue.

Look at the hysteresis loop.

 

[CGabriel]

Look at the hysteresis loop.

Very interesting Gary. Do you have a vibrating loop magnetometer? I can understand why you would have one when working with speaker drivers. How do you apply its function in testing a conductor? If you want to take this offline you can email me directly.

Thank you.

 

[FrantzM]

Steve

I don't claim to know the answer. I am a skeptic. Do prove to me the changes that occurred. and let's see what they mean. I am however certain it doesn't involve annealing. I don't dismiss quantum, I don't understand it enough to conjure it. If someone posit that burn-in occurs at the quantum level then proof is needed, i don't see any.
I also feel I must question who the experts are: Those selling the cables? Those using them and hearing "vast" differences? Those who design them?


Now the process by which some metal migrates to another is very well know. I am not sure it involves Quatum Mechanics. I don't know what it has to do with cable burn-in.

I am not sorry to sound negative on those "tweaks". I have come to experience how unreliable our senses are. Those ears that we so often laud are easily fooled by our brains and a good dose of applied psychology. We audiophiles are an interesting bunch. For the most part extremely sophisticated and learned and at the same time somewhat gullible. Our knowledge some can call it culture makes us curious and eager to discover new things and we then come to see .. every single , tiny, things as the cause for our "perception" and our brains helps. Mine did. I have documented this fact candidly here. We do assign explanation to things, something not lost on those who sell these wares. We regularly dismiss the fact that these sellers understand our psychology and use it for their benefits. It helps that for the most part we can afford these things. People on this board or others who buy into those tweaks and acquire those sometimes vulgarly expensive items would not find themselves in dire needs after the purchase. So I will continue to voice my skepticism and I hope it doesn't sound dismissive or offensive.

Lst but not least: Give me two set of cables one cooked and the other not and let me hear it , I will write my impression on this board. Willing to come to LA (you) just for that or to Portland (Gary, Bruce or MikeL) . and let's listen together. No DBT but we will remove the knowledge some ...

 

[Joe Whip]

I know enough about QM to know that we still don't understand it very well. Applying it to a subject such as supposed cable burn in is a waste of time. I would love to participate in a test of cooked and uncooked cables as well, if anyone close to the Philly area wishes to supply some for us to test.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Steve

Lst but not least: Give me two set of cables one cooked and the other not and let me hear it , I will write my impression on this board. Willing to come to LA (you) just for that or to Portland (Gary, Bruce or MikeL) . and let's listen together. No DBT but we will remove the knowledge some ...

while i respect anyone's feelings that they need proof, i specifically would not be involved in any test of this cable break-in device. i really don't care what others think about it. it's simply not worth the aggravation to deal with.

i'm happy to answer questions about what i do for those curious, which i've done. but i draw the line there.

OTOH i'd love to someday host you Frantz in my home and that offer continues. but i'd hate to have a cable breakin DBT be the focus of that.

 

[FrantzM]

Mike

No DBT .. I need to come enjoy your system and I will ... If you don't want to be part of that cable test so be it .. No harm done. I am not the least interested in a DBT too. I want two cables to listen to: one broken in the other not .. Is that asking too much?
I do however want to stress one thing: Education and/or discovery are not always painless. They sometimes involves letting go of old ideas.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

No DBT .. I need to come enjoy your system and I will ... If you don't want to be part of that cable test so be it .. No harm done. I am not the least interested in a DBT too. I want two cables to listen to: one broken in the other not .. Is that asking too much?
I do however want to stress one thing: Education and/or discovery are not always painless. They sometimes involves letting go of old ideas.

cable comparisons are hard work in the context of high end audio discovery. not the focus of any quality time i can tell you.

now comparing digital to analog. that is fun stuff with a slam dunk result and i'd be all over that.

but no measurments!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I blindfolded my girlfriend and apparently I measured up!

Life is good!

 

[microstrip]

Steve

I don't claim to know the answer. I am a skeptic. (...)

Frantz,

You are too knowledgeable and experienced in audio matters to be a true skeptic in audio. Sorry to say, but IMHO your skepticism only shows about others audio beliefs, but you do not question yours. As far as I remember (please correct me if I am wrong) you never carried a proper DBT test and all your skepticism was motivated either in what many of us consider inappropriate experiences and mostly as a reaction of the audiophile hyperbole you dislike so much.

BTW, some decades ago I spent some time carrying wire and microstructure radiation detectors burnin. The reason for this process is to clean wire surface and migrate defects in the dielectrics to suppress electrical noise in detectors. Although it is not related at all with audio, it prepared me to accept that sometimes finding the real scientific explanations is so time and resource consuming that we use the practical results and forget about the deep science.

 

[JackD201]

I blindfolded my girlfriend and apparently I measured up!

Life is good!

That's cheating. She may have been blindfolded but she still knew it was you!

 

[JackD201]

So how do you all burn if folks know that the sound is now how it is supposed to be? What is "better" and in reference to what....you got some golden ears, Amazing just how much you DON'T hear compared to the 20 year old, I mean, really now...

You know when you know. It's really that simple……and maddening. For me the reference is simple. The reference is daily life. You don't have to have golden ears to just know when something sounds artificial or even contrived. You just have to be in tune with your aural environment with whatever facilities the Big Guy has given you. Hearing is a wonderful thing not just reserved for music. I'm headed to a tropical paradise next week with my wife. I'm looking forward to lounging on the beach with my eyes closed to just listen to the wind, the rustling of leaves, the birds and the crashing of the surf.

Now sensing or knowing that something is out of whack and determining cause, that is continually learned and practiced. It is not mandatory of course. One thing we humans are very good at is listening through the crap. We can be really great at filtering things out. That kind of defeats the purpose of any hobby though. Where would the fun in that be?

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

You are too knowledgeable and experienced in audio matters to be a true skeptic in audio. Sorry to say, but IMHO your skepticism only shows about others audio beliefs, but you do not question yours. As far as I remember (please correct me if I am wrong) you never carried a proper DBT test and all your skepticism was motivated either in what many of us consider inappropriate experiences and mostly as a reaction of the audiophile hyperbole you dislike so much.

BTW, some decades ago I spent some time carrying wire and microstructure radiation detectors burnin. The reason for this process is to clean wire surface and migrate defects in the dielectrics to suppress electrical noise in detectors. Although it is not related at all with audio, it prepared me to accept that sometimes finding the real scientific explanations is so time and resource consuming that we use the practical results and forget about the deep science.

Never misses an opportunity to direct a jab at me but I do sincerely appreciate the compliment , it comes from a person with a vast knowledge of things Audio.
You may have noticed that I might be one of the very few to question my own observations. So much that my entire stance on Audio reproduction has shifted. Your jab falls flat.
I am by no means saying there is no such a thing as burn-in simply that the change we assign to our perception may not come from it. And I don't thinkl it applies to cables.
We audiophile have come to overestimate our hearing abilities. The truth is: We don't hear that well , we, the over 40 and most likely close to 60 years old people who populate WBF. Yet we are claiming to hear things that can't be measured by equipment infinitely more accurate, precise and repetitively so than our ears... On top of that we routinely dismiss what our bias do to our perception of the world around us. We go as far as claiming we can hear the differences after a cable has moved! I was a believer. I have been candid and sincere enough to admit in public.

Remind me of a few years ago at the twilight of analog TVs, circa 2005... I am in a room and am reading. TV a big Sony 35 inch is apparently off. My niece about 14 years old then comes in the room and declare the TV on. There is nothing on the screen I say, she: No it is whistling and it is very loud ... Flyback transformer of that TV was for her the telltale . I believe something above 15 KHz... I couldn't hear it until I paid serious attention to it and it was faint .. She heard it as a unbearably loud (her words) whistle ... I was the audiophile. Perhaps we should try these comparisons with very young people as listeners...
Again if after a few hours of cooking it sounds good to you then by all means enjoy it ...

 

[Steve Williams]

Frantz

you have always struck me as a reasonable man with an open mind but here on this issue it is you who is telling everyone else what they are hearing or not hearing. You have completely shut out all possibilities by glibbly rejected any one's positive impressions as expectation bias or whatever

My initial reaction when I switched to Shunyata power cords was that each time I introduced one into the system there was an immediate perception that the volume of my preamp has been adjusted upwards. Such was not the case. I am not the only one who has heard that

You asked for some measurements (as is always the case to try to stifle a debate)

How about this from the Shunyata web site re DTCD measurements

http://shunyata.com/technical-feat/78-dtcd/288-dtcd


so what sayest you now??

 

[GaryProtein]

I won't argue with his graphs, but the total time on the graph is 50 u sec.

That corresponds to the time it takes for ONE cycle of a 20kHz tone to happen and the magnitude of the amperage shown doesn't seem reasonable or possible in any kind of stereo system.

I'm just trying to give this some sort of clinical relevancy.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz

you have always struck me as a reasonable man with an open mind but here on this issue it is you who is telling everyone else what they are hearing or not hearing. You have completely shut out all possibilities by glibbly rejected any one's positive impressions as expectation bias or whatever

My initial reaction when I switched to Shunyata power cords was that each time I introduced one into the system there was an immediate perception that the volume of my preamp has been adjusted upwards. Such was not the case. I am not the only one who has heard that

You asked for some measurements (as is always the case to try to stifle a debate)

How about this from the Shunyata web site re DTCD measurements

http://shunyata.com/technical-feat/78-dtcd/288-dtcd


so what sayest you now??

The Shunyatta pece is not convincing .. GaryP addressed the issues.

I am not debating the audibility of cables here. I am debating that of cable break-in, a process that so far no one has cared to explain to me. The Shunyatta reference doesn't address the issue of burn-in BTW.

 

[ack]

Here's what George Cardas has to say about all this http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php
Also, Caelin has said on this site that Shunyata don't break in their cables because any positive effect is erased when the cables are bent again out of shape when shipped...

 

[dmnc02]

And this is Audioquest's perspective on cable break in and how it relates to their dielectric biasing system (on which they have a joint patent with Vandersteen):

http://www.audioquest.com/resource_tools/LearningMods/DBS.pdf

 

[FrantzM]

I am bowing out.

Must point out that all the references are from people in the audiophile cable business