The officer should have taken him out much sooner, before he ran back to the truck. In fact when he first approached the officer and didn't stop, the officer should have shot him.
Traffic Stop Video: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC
- Thread starter RBFC
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I just found this thread, Lee.
Putting to one side whether a reasonable person would have felt an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm at 0:41 (when the guy ran at the officer the first time) or 0:55 (when the guy ran at the office a second time), I cannot understand why the officer did not shoot immediately upon seeing the guy’s firearm (especially in the context of the guy being obviously nuts and exclaiming that he is a “Vietnam combat veteran”).
And the guy spent so much time fumbling around in his truck for his rifle the officer had plenty of time to grab a long gun and take cover behind the patrol car.
Putting to one side whether a reasonable person would have felt an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm at 0:41 (when the guy ran at the officer the first time) or 0:55 (when the guy ran at the office a second time), I cannot understand why the officer did not shoot immediately upon seeing the guy’s firearm (especially in the context of the guy being obviously nuts and exclaiming that he is a “Vietnam combat veteran”).
And the guy spent so much time fumbling around in his truck for his rifle the officer had plenty of time to grab a long gun and take cover behind the patrol car.
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Ron,
This incident spurred a movement to provide more effective training to law enforcement officers. Understand that many officers in the field have never even been in a fight before. Coming from that type of "sheltered" background, it becomes easier to see how critical survival decision-making under extreme time pressure is quite difficult for these individuals. There is a denial of the event as it unfolds, as we attempt to process the information pouring in.
Lee
Actually, I could post many videos from around the world that are far worse. However, WBF is not the venue for such material. The few videos I did post were meant to serve as springboards to learning for our members. Violent crime is virtually everywhere. The specific "implement" is far less important than the sociopathic conditions that foster the criminal use of deadly force. Seeing the problems more clearly is the challenge, considering how the media likes to manipulate a story for ratings.
Lee
This is an interesting observation and makes a lot of sense to me. In hindsight it's easy to say what the officer should have done, but realistically I'm not sure I could say that I would have acted differently without any prior experience or training.
The restraint showed by this officer which resulted in his untimely demise is not uncommon and many civilians are alive because of that.. We, you may not remember what you may have displayed when stopped by an officer: often disrespect and sometimes outright hostility. Imagine an officer reacting too fast on your behavior...This is a very delicate issue. In Hindsight the officer should have reacted better but ... we are dealing with humans in a civilized society and there are behavior and actions we have come not to expect from an an individual.
A tragedy but I understand the hesitation and mistake of the officer. I suppose better training can help but IMO up to a point.
Vietnam vet. Detected a 'threat' and went into 'combat mode'. I've seen this sort of thing before, especially with the ones who've seen VC ambush action. The LEO was slow, but he did fire the first shot. Not a fun job being a highway robber for the State. Sometimes your victim gets pissed off in a big way. Veterans get shafted. Lousy VA benefits; they gave a lot for this country and that dickhead LBJ, and they get nothing in return but hatred, long waiting lines for medical treatment, if any at all. It's unfortunate that the cop and the vet had to have this encounter, but it is a symptom of a bigger problem caused by Uncle Sam.
• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-deputy-traffic-stop-set-execution-2015.html
• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...acuse-service-PTSD-vast-final-meal-death.html
It is sad, very sad. What to do; execute him? Even after knowing the fact? Hmmm...I don't think so; providing help is what he needed, not being executed...it served no positive purpose.
• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...acuse-service-PTSD-vast-final-meal-death.html
It is sad, very sad. What to do; execute him? Even after knowing the fact? Hmmm...I don't think so; providing help is what he needed, not being executed...it served no positive purpose.
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? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-reached-truck-cane-routine-traffic-stop.html
I'd say that the police officer reacted too quick. If we were all to react fast like that, the world would be in greater chaos.
It's unfortunate. The old vet had no reason for reaching for a gun in a first place, beats me. ...A false move from an inapt cop with a quick reflex on the trigger, much too quick.
It must be a real bad neighborhood around that region. I don't want to live any near that area with a cop like that. The poor old vet is very lucky if he survived, and living with even more tumult in his life. I feel for him, very dearly.
I'd say that the police officer reacted too quick. If we were all to react fast like that, the world would be in greater chaos.
It's unfortunate. The old vet had no reason for reaching for a gun in a first place, beats me. ...A false move from an inapt cop with a quick reflex on the trigger, much too quick.
It must be a real bad neighborhood around that region. I don't want to live any near that area with a cop like that. The poor old vet is very lucky if he survived, and living with even more tumult in his life. I feel for him, very dearly.
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I won't watch the clip, but I really do question why it needs to be on WBF at all.
Can you please remove it?
STUPID COP.
HE caused the situation to escalate, just listen to his voice, which is not to say he deserved to die.
I'm not sure the VietNam vet deserved to die either. He belonged in a mental hospital.
from the wiki article, HOW could he have been convicted of pre-meditated murder??? He was stopped for speeding. It's a typical case of a person getting a worse sentence because the victim was a cop.
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As Lee mentioned there are different levels of training Ron, often police officers in small towns get less range time than civilians and you can forget about any tactical training. Its a complaint I heard from many law enforcement officers I met at various shooting courses. Most of them had to pay their own way to take the class. We don't know anything about this officer or his regular beat and this wasn't a typical encounter, I wonder if he even believed what was going down or that he could get shot by this crazy guy. Here's a report on NYPD's level of training, from this you can just imagine how much how poor training can be across the country.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public_information/RAND_FirearmEvaluation.pdf
The whole document is an interesting and scary read but here's an excerpt from page 35 & 36. If you google you'll see how pathetic the average NYPD cop is in an actual gunfight, here's why.
"Refresher Firearm Traingin and RequalificationThe semiannual firearm requalification consists of three parts:
• Lecture: A two-part lecture to remind officers of current safety and tactical issues.
The first lecture consists of 38 overhead slides that review drawing the firearm,
fundamentals of shooting, accidental discharges, firearm maintenance, and the
basics of using OC spray. The second lecture covers departmentwide firearmdischarge
reports, use of force, reflexive shooting, patrol tactics, dogs, and firearm
safety.
• Practice: An opportunity to fire 45 rounds of ammunition at stationary targets at
7-, 15-, and 25-yard distances. Practice is unscored on a tactical pistol course."
"TThe Requalification: This included firing 50 rounds at stationary targets at 7-, 15-, and 25- yard distances. A minimum of 39 hits is required to qualify.
The current firearm-requalification program is less about making sure officers can
effectively use their pistols in real-life situations than it is about meeting legal requirements
and professional standards. While the requalification course meets the standards
required by the state of New York and is consistent with national norms, shooting
at paper targets on a known-distance range is basically target practice. It does not
demonstrate that the officer has mastered his or her firearm and is ready for a shooting
confrontation on the streets"
[despite a nearly] universal acceptance [that] both the process and product of handgun
qualifications . . . strongly [imply] that officers exceeding prescribed minimum
performance levels are proficient . . . a consensus among police firearms trainers [is
that such training does not] substantially enhance officer or community safety. . . .
There are serious reasons to question the validity of police recruit and in-service
handgun training activities.
The above is aside from tons of regulations that govern the use of deadly force and even the ridiculously high trigger pull of 12lbs for NYPD, probably some of it is necessary but a lot of it seems to be drawn up by clueless bureaucrats and lawyers. Same ones that curb the rights of individuals to arm themselves properly.
david
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Gosh, way, way too quick - I agree. Not only did he not even spend a moment to see if the "weapon" might have been something else, but he never even gave him any time to follow his instructions! He's firing away almost at the same time he's telling him to drop it!
Seems to me that these two videos (one linked to above and the one posted by the OP) should be used together, concurrently on the exact same training course as they demonstrate complete opposites in ways to react, both with adverse outcomes.
Traffic Stop | For Busted Tail Light | Police Officer Kill the Driver!
You probably have read about this Minnesota's traffic stop by the police. The young girlfriend and her young daughter witnessed the shooting of their boyfriend/father.
Check carefully that cop yelling and swearing after he killed the young man. He obviously doesn't have his head together; he just committed a murder and has to justify it.
The young lady is amazingly cool and calm; you can tell that this young family was a very loving family.
? http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/minnesota-police-shooting-1.3668185
______
Less than 24 hours prior to this there was another shooting by a police officer killing another human being for no good reason.
This one I won't link it; I want to concentrate on the link above.
______
And then we all have read about Dallas, Texas's tragedy because of that first link above. ...Five police officers shot dead and few more hospitalized for wounds.
______
Now, put yourself in the shoes of that young lady from that link above. Everyone living in America, Canada, the planet Earth; put yourself in her shoes.
I tell you this; my heart just shredded to pieces! My eyes filled with tears, my thoughts with the young daughter too, and the young man's parents.
The police officer who shot the young man is not a police officer, he is an inadequate liability. He is a deranged fabrication of a system totally wrong in America.
That is my deep and honest opinion. Fear is killing America! This is totally unbalanced, and if justice is not/never served this world is only going to get worst.
It's easy to wash our hands out, and empty our mind, and just let it go. And by doing so we encourage more violence and killing by recruiting our own forces (human soul and mind) to disappear of our fundamental values. We are becoming deserters of the fight for peace and equality among us all.
This thread was started by Lee, a gentleman, by a WBF member, by a good man, by a moderator, by a guy who all like us is human with a heart and a clear mind on justice, equality and peace. That's my view.
I'm listening to classical music right now, with a shaken heart, squeezed guts and broken soul. The music sounds different, my emotions taking me much further than the melodies.
This is only one aspect of what audiophiles experience in their room from their hi-fi sound systems. And that aspect is as much important as all the tuning and adjustments of the turntable. Everything is important in this audio hobby. Every small detail affects the overall outcome in our music listening. ...Not just the recordings (mediums and artists), software and hardware but also our own state-of-mind. Our emotions, being relaxed, or stressed, or cloudy or clear, clean or spoiled, ...all levels of emotions; are part of our music listeming experience. The world around us lives and surrounds us all; it is not a solitary world. Music is a celebration, a universal language, a liberation, a freedom, a respect for humanity, a dance for peace, a joy to savior, a communal right, an expression of life. Some music expresses the depression, the oppression, the dissemination, the 'dehumination', the humiliation, the atrocities of war and injustice...some great classical masterpieces.
__________
You probably have read about this Minnesota's traffic stop by the police. The young girlfriend and her young daughter witnessed the shooting of their boyfriend/father.
Check carefully that cop yelling and swearing after he killed the young man. He obviously doesn't have his head together; he just committed a murder and has to justify it.
The young lady is amazingly cool and calm; you can tell that this young family was a very loving family.
? http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/minnesota-police-shooting-1.3668185
______
Less than 24 hours prior to this there was another shooting by a police officer killing another human being for no good reason.
This one I won't link it; I want to concentrate on the link above.
______
And then we all have read about Dallas, Texas's tragedy because of that first link above. ...Five police officers shot dead and few more hospitalized for wounds.
______
Now, put yourself in the shoes of that young lady from that link above. Everyone living in America, Canada, the planet Earth; put yourself in her shoes.
I tell you this; my heart just shredded to pieces! My eyes filled with tears, my thoughts with the young daughter too, and the young man's parents.
The police officer who shot the young man is not a police officer, he is an inadequate liability. He is a deranged fabrication of a system totally wrong in America.
That is my deep and honest opinion. Fear is killing America! This is totally unbalanced, and if justice is not/never served this world is only going to get worst.
It's easy to wash our hands out, and empty our mind, and just let it go. And by doing so we encourage more violence and killing by recruiting our own forces (human soul and mind) to disappear of our fundamental values. We are becoming deserters of the fight for peace and equality among us all.
This thread was started by Lee, a gentleman, by a WBF member, by a good man, by a moderator, by a guy who all like us is human with a heart and a clear mind on justice, equality and peace. That's my view.
I'm listening to classical music right now, with a shaken heart, squeezed guts and broken soul. The music sounds different, my emotions taking me much further than the melodies.
This is only one aspect of what audiophiles experience in their room from their hi-fi sound systems. And that aspect is as much important as all the tuning and adjustments of the turntable. Everything is important in this audio hobby. Every small detail affects the overall outcome in our music listening. ...Not just the recordings (mediums and artists), software and hardware but also our own state-of-mind. Our emotions, being relaxed, or stressed, or cloudy or clear, clean or spoiled, ...all levels of emotions; are part of our music listeming experience. The world around us lives and surrounds us all; it is not a solitary world. Music is a celebration, a universal language, a liberation, a freedom, a respect for humanity, a dance for peace, a joy to savior, a communal right, an expression of life. Some music expresses the depression, the oppression, the dissemination, the 'dehumination', the humiliation, the atrocities of war and injustice...some great classical masterpieces.
__________
I wouldn't rush to any conclusion yet Bob, I'm not saying it was right but I'm sure that there's more to the story than just being pulled over for busted traffic light and then getting shot for being black. This woman's behavior isn't normal by any stretch of imagination, to sit there and calmly record a video when a dear one is shot and killed next to you isn't doesn't sit well with me. Most people including soldiers used to death are traumatized, yet its as if she's on the phone with a girl friend. None of this makes sense and now there are sites with Castile's arrest records and not the good boy that girl friend wants to portray. We'll have to wait and see how the truth unfolds.
david
david
I've heard that he had a pistol in his lap, and his claim of a permit is not yet substantiated. Please allow more details to emerge before casting judgement.
As to the current mindset of law enforcement officers: imagine that you go to work everyday knowing that there is currently a wave of workplace shootings that target folks with your job. It doesn't matter if you actively do anything to anger anyone. One cannot help but be changed by that type/amount of pressure. These same individuals, who are being castigated in the public eye, are the first ones who will put themselves in danger to save your kidnapped child, etc. My theories on why the public vs police drama has escalated are (unfortunately) not proper material for this forum.
Lee
As to the current mindset of law enforcement officers: imagine that you go to work everyday knowing that there is currently a wave of workplace shootings that target folks with your job. It doesn't matter if you actively do anything to anger anyone. One cannot help but be changed by that type/amount of pressure. These same individuals, who are being castigated in the public eye, are the first ones who will put themselves in danger to save your kidnapped child, etc. My theories on why the public vs police drama has escalated are (unfortunately) not proper material for this forum.
Lee
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