Sonus Faber Aida vs. Wilson XLF (with the MBL 101 Extreme thrown-in for fun)

marty

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Apr 20, 2010
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Sonus Faber Aida vs. Wilson XLF

Since my initial experience in listening to the Sonus Faber Aida speakers at CES, I have been curious to hear them in direct comparison to the new Wilson XLF. If my understanding is correct, the only dealer in the US to carry both of these speakers in house is LMC (Legendary Music Cinema) Home Entertainment in Phoenix, AZ. After a few months of trying to coordinate a visit there with Steve, we finally managed to make it out to the desert in April 24th. Mike Ware, the owner of LMC was gracious enough to pick us up at Phoenix airport and then let us play at his store for a few hours before returning us to the airport again. LMC is a remarkably upscale shop with not only music demonstration rooms, but some pretty impressive theaters that will bring a lot of smiles to the video crowd as well. It is simply a drop dead gorgeous store.

I’ll begin by saying that when we first arrived, we were led to a room housing the Aida’s driven by some nice McIntosh gear. However the amps were cold, and the speakers were located close to the front corners of the room because the last customer who listened (and ultimately purchased) them, had a wife who would only allow hubby to buy the speakers if they were buried deep in the corners of their room. Poor bastard. Need I say more?

To get right down to it, we spent a considerable amount of time trying to get the speaker to sound as good as it could in the room. I suggested bringing the speaker in a good distance, but Mike identified the spot that worked best from previous experience. We had the benefit of using a simple Phonic frequency analyzer with pink noise to get the best rough-in position, but it was not until much later that we made small position changes (<1 inch range) that allowed the speaker to sound its best (see Fig 1 (initial placement) and 2 final placement). (Note space between horiz dashed lines on meter face is equal to 5 dB).

So what exactly did it sound like? The answer is that it sounded quite good. But unfortunately, the room was not yet treated with the sound absorption materials that are currently on order. Thus, no matter what we did, there was a considerable suck out of 40 Hz that put a room stamp signature on what we heard even though we were able to achieve a fairly smooth response throughout the rest of the range . The main result of this is that the speaker’s sound lost considerable weight as a result of the 40 Hz suck out.. This defect in a key part of the bass range was also unfortunately aided by the fact that the speakers were on Teflon sliders and not spikes. Therefore, full-throated orchestral material, brass bands and even solo classical piano lacked the “weight” that is often a desirable characteristic of a true full range speaker. The rest of the range however sounded quite lovely. The McIntosh single chassis tube preamp and the Mc 2301 tube amps presented a very coherent, seamless sound field. It was hard to find fault with the speaker other than the obvious room boundary effect at 40Hz even though the Aida was not heard at its best. I have been fortunate to hear the speaker under stellar conditions twice previously. The first was at the ARC demo at CES. Drop dead stunning. The second, and possibly even more impressive, was at David Zucker’s Sound Experience in Boca Raton Florida about a month ago. David has a smaller room, and used a superb amp from Zanden Tandem (with which I was previously unfamiliar) to extract simply magical sound from the Aida’s. One can only hope that when the Aida is best set-up in its completely optimized room at LMC, it’s significant merits will be fully apparent.

Next up was a move to another, larger room to hear the Wilson Alexandria XLF. Again, the room is in the process of being optimized. But Mike let us listen to the speaker with the 2 chassis Mc tube preamp as well as both the 1.2KW SS amps and the 2301 tube amp. Fortunately, the room geography did not present any “fatal” suck-outs or bumps, and thus the overall sound was very pleasing. Once again, the speaker was not spiked to the floor, but rather on wheels, as is often the case for speakers that have not found their permanent home in a particular showroom. Still the frequency response was quite respectable but with a noticeable absence of low bass (Fig 3) . We tried changing the direction of the port from rear to front, but this was to no avail so we put it back to the rear port configuration. However Mike surprised us and told us that even though the room we were in was yet to be optimized, his plans called for a new fully dedicated room for the XLFs that will begin construction shortly. He assured us they will be spiked and thus show their full potential upon that room’s completion.

What we really came to hear of course, was the new silk dome tweeter on the XLF, since that’s a big part of both this particular speaker as well as what we are all guessing will be an eventual tweeter change in the entire Wilson line. And there’s good news to share here. Steve characterized the sound of the new tweeter as relaxed, open, and detailed and I concur. What I like most about Steve’s characterization is that he used the word “relaxed” first. Usually the sound of a particular driver can be thought of in terms frequency response, phase response amplitude, and distortion. But in this case, the word “relaxed”, which describes the subjective nature of the listener more than the sound of a transducer, was the perfect “non sequitur” term (if that makes any sense)!

Finally, and just for fun, we had the opportunity to listen to the big 4 piece MBL 101 X-treme Reference loudspeakers (an omnidirectional line source) that carries a big ticket price of about 250+K. That's right folks. After listening to speakers priced at 120K and 195K, it only made sense to listen to a speaker that was twice the price of the Aida! After all, it was right there. What were we going to do, say no? To be honest, I heard these speakers last year at the factory showroom in Berlin, and I noticed the same annoying property at LMC I disliked when I originally heard them under very good circumstances in Berlin. Specifically, when I played human voice, I was able to envision the voice emanating from either the top or the bottom balloon midrange driver, but never as a single voice in the middle of the vertically separated drivers. In other words, rather than hearing a single vocal image, I always heard a double set; one from the bottom set of Radialstrahlers and one from the top set. It was, at least for me, just eerie. Too much “omni” in my opinion. But then again, that is a very subjective view.

So, what speaker did we come away in our thinking that one was top dog? The answer is- neither. Both the Aida and XLF are clearly very fine speakers. But unfortunately, we arrived at a time where the room environments were just not optimized for either. I think we made the collective comment that if each speaker is capable of a “10” on its own accord, we were listening under conditions that afforded only a 6, or 7, maximal score at best which was driven by the fact that both rooms had not been fully treated, and neither speaker was set up on spikes, thereby dramatically attenuating the best bass response that both speakers are fully capable of producing. Still, it was a great day, if only to visit a unique retailer with a spectacular venue well under development (the big home theater is to die for!), and who exemplified the best of high end retail in his knowledge, help, good cheer and modesty. Thanks Mike!
 

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Great comparison, can you give more specific details on the performance of tweeters and mid ranges and also sound stage and overall presentation of played music on both speakers?
 
Thanks Marty . Always a pleasure to read your (too rare these days ) posts...
 
Marty,

Very pleased to read your report. Can I ask how do you compare the Aida versus the XLF tweeters?
I am very interested in learning about your listening session with the Zanden's. Do you remember what were the cables and source?
Thanks a lot!
 
Thanks for the info but gotta say really left me scratching my head wondering. :confused:

Why would a dealer of such speakers (3 very expensive) not have ideal rooms designed and the speakers actually dialed in properly using different electronics driving such, really does not represent the manufactures of such appropriately. :eek:

Mike of LMC obviously knew you were coming to listen.

I have heard the mac gear on numerous occasions 'ACTUALLY OWNED" and would never have thought to pair such up with any of these speakers ideally.

The MBL's and your experience, that's just too weird! :eek: You said;

"Specifically, when I played human voice, I was able to envision the voice emanating from either the top or the bottom balloon midrange driver, but never as a single voice in the middle of the vertically separated drivers. In other words, rather than hearing a single vocal image, I always heard a double set; one from the bottom set of Radialstrahlers and one from the top set."

If this is their sonic characteristics portrayed how could any one like them specially at their crazy asking price, I'm a happy owner of MBL 101E's and have never heard them and always wondered about the double set-up "basically another 101E flipped upside down and placed on top" Od though because I have never read this from anyone else listening to them.

No pictures to share?
 
Thanks for the report Marty. Do you have more specific details on the actual sound for each speaker? And I have to share DEV's concerns here, though mine are more acidic... $600K worth of speakers, much more with the electronics, going "live" with serious potential buyers and wider audience with suboptimal rooms - WHY?
 
Thanks for the info but gotta say really left me scratching my head wondering. :confused:

Why would a dealer of such speakers (3 very expensive) not have ideal rooms designed and the speakers actually dialed in properly using different electronics driving such, really does not represent the manufactures of such appropriately. :eek:

Mike of LMC obviously knew you were coming to listen.

I have heard the mac gear on numerous occasions 'ACTUALLY OWNED" and would never have thought to pair such up with any of these speakers ideally.

The MBL's and your experience, that's just too weird! :eek: You said;

"Specifically, when I played human voice, I was able to envision the voice emanating from either the top or the bottom balloon midrange driver, but never as a single voice in the middle of the vertically separated drivers. In other words, rather than hearing a single vocal image, I always heard a double set; one from the bottom set of Radialstrahlers and one from the top set."

If this is their sonic characteristics portrayed how could any one like them specially at their crazy asking price, I'm a happy owner of MBL 101E's and have never heard them and always wondered about the double set-up "basically another 101E flipped upside down and placed on top" Od though because I have never read this from anyone else listening to them.

No pictures to share?

Dev

out of fairness to Mike the owner he told us straight up about the modifications being done to his store and all of the room acoustics being installed. Suffice it to say his store was one of the nicest high end audiostores I have ever frequented. He was almost embarrasse. The underlying issue was related to his lease and once that was settled he went full charge ahead to finish everything. It just wasn't when we were there. He had hoped that the rooms would be finished however he had made custom art work sound panels for each room but when they arrived they discovered the panels weren't wrapped correctly and they all were sent back to the factory. In short DEV it was Marty and I who picked the date but as I am sure you know that in this hobby things don't always go as planned. Mike is doing something right as he owns two large stores in Arizona and is soon to open a 3rd in the Dallas area. He is the number one McIntosh dealer and the only dealer to carry in stock every component made by McIntosh as well as being the overall number 3 Wilson dealer with the hope that he will be number one this year. He has clients from all over the world and recently delivered an Aida setup to a client in Monaco. His staff go all over the world to do the installs. Sp please DEV let's cut him some slack
 
Thanks for the report Marty. Do you have more specific details on the actual sound for each speaker? And I have to share DEV's concerns here, though mine are more acidic... $600K worth of speakers, much more with the electronics, going "live" with serious potential buyers and wider audience with suboptimal rooms - WHY?


The inventory in this store was beyond belief but certainly in the many millions of dollars and that was just the Scottsdale store.Mike also shared with us that unlike other dealers he owns EVERY piece of inventory in all of his stores.

The MBL 101-Extreme is essentially a D'appolito design of DEV's speaker which BTW was also in the room sitting next to the 101-Extreme

I have pictures. Not the best but let me put them up later
 
BTW, Marty is a very modest man and never posts pictures of his room so I thought that I would put this one up. It was completely designed by Marty and has won architectural awards for the design and look.

IMO not only is it gorgeous to behold but it is one of the finest sounds I have ever heard
 

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(...) I have heard the mac gear on numerous occasions 'ACTUALLY OWNED" and would never have thought to pair such up with any of these speakers ideally.

Disclaimer : I can´t be unbiased when speaking about Mcintosh gear - when I was still an young university student without money for hifi, there was a well known shop that had the great looking mac equipment in the window shop and I spent too many long minutes flabbergasting at the beautiful blue and silver panels with great wood casing.

My experience with this brand is limited to the MC275 with Quad ESL63s and not long ago to a C2200 + MC2102 ( I could not resist to try this pair, as it was being sold as new for a fraction of the price). They sounded very good, and could drive Wilson Maxx speakers perfectly - the current owner is using Wilson 7s. I can easily accept that the better and more expensive mac units are an excellent match with Aida's or XLF's when used with a good source and appropriate cables (but have no experience with them).

I have got the idea that Mcintosh's are very neutral - may be it is also one of the reasons why this dealer wanted to show these top speakers with such electronics.
 
Marty, your room is gorgeous! Looks like it's comfortable and not "sterile". May I ask the distance from the listening position to the speakers? Hard to judge scale, but looks to be 10-12 feet.

Lee
 
I have heard the mac gear on numerous occasions 'ACTUALLY OWNED" and would never have thought to pair such up with any of these speakers ideally.

Dev IMO that is what makes the hobby so much fun. Pick your flavor. Some could say the same re pairing the MBL with VAC for that matter
 
Interesting that you say Mike owns all of the gear that he is selling. IIRC DW used to have a hand in what ancillary gear he would "expect" to be used with his speakers and "suggest" to dealers said gear.
Perhaps in this case the fact that Mike owns the gear vs. has it on consignment, does not allow DW to have such sway.:confused:
 
Dev IMO that is what makes the hobby so much fun. Pick your flavor. Some could say the same re pairing the MBL with VAC for that matter

Steve, yes I agree one must try. So when will you be replacing your 32 watt $140K + Lamm tube mono blocks? with these specific Mac amps?

If not then why if they were all this and that? You would be able to put allot of money back into your pocket ;)

Curious from your extensive experience of listening to Wilson what was your over all sonic comparisons?
 
Dev

out of fairness to Mike the owner he told us straight up about the modifications being done to his store and all of the room acoustics being installed. Suffice it to say his store was one of the nicest high end audiostores I have ever frequented. He was almost embarrasse. The underlying issue was related to his lease and once that was settled he went full charge ahead to finish everything. It just wasn't when we were there. He had hoped that the rooms would be finished however he had made custom art work sound panels for each room but when they arrived they discovered the panels weren't wrapped correctly and they all were sent back to the factory. In short DEV it was Marty and I who picked the date but as I am sure you know that in this hobby things don't always go as planned. Mike is doing something right as he owns two large stores in Arizona and is soon to open a 3rd in the Dallas area. He is the number one McIntosh dealer and the only dealer to carry in stock every component made by McIntosh as well as being the overall number 3 Wilson dealer with the hope that he will be number one this year. He has clients from all over the world and recently delivered an Aida setup to a client in Monaco. His staff go all over the world to do the installs. Sp please DEV let's cut him some slack

Steve, in general my comments are just in conversation and nothing else meant by them. Aren't we allowed to offer such?

Maybe it wasn't the best time for the OP "Marty" to write as he did or in doing so should have added some of the information you did, I wasn't there so how would I know.

It's great to read Mike is doing so well in the audio business specifically with lines mentioned.

In relation to Mac gear, as I mentioned I have owned and enjoyed numerous pces. Actually still own a MR-78 TUNER but with the speakers mentioned there are numerous others to pair up and compare.

You mentioned Mike caries in stock every component made by Mac, why did he not have MC2KW Monoblocks paired up with any of these speakers then?

In relation to what Marty said hearing the 101Extremes and hearing double voices is this what you heard also?
 
Thanks for the review .
The room is beautifull especially the ceiling, great work .
I fully agree on zanden gear which i know pretty well .
Unfortunately also on the radialstrahler(which i heardonly once ) no offense dev :D every one takes his pic , the isis (your) i like for sure
 
BTW, Marty is a very modest man and never posts pictures of his room so I thought that I would put this one up. It was completely designed by Marty and has won architectural awards for the design and look.

IMO not only is it gorgeous to behold but it is one of the finest sounds I have ever heard

Steve,

Great room. It looks comfortable, and mostly non-technical. So much I must ask - where is the audio system? (I hope this is not a Where's The Wally type post and I am missing it ;)) .
 
First let me say that Marty and Steve are both great gentlemen and true audiophiles with a passion for our craft, it was a pleasure to meet them both! Had I known that they were part of the audiophile community and interested in doing a quick review on the speakers I would have requested that they come after we finish expansion and have done a final set on the speakers...I look forward to hosting them again! Our listening rooms are NOT specially designed, near acoustically perfect rooms-this is not what most people have in their homes. We can and have done such rooms for clients with the desire, time and space, however our goal in the showroom is to create wonderfully reproduced music in real-world living rooms.

As for the speakers themselves; they are all world-class and as we all know speakers are the most subjective part of a high-end music system. We do not all hear the same things, we have different acoustic and aesthetic tastes and different speakers perform very differently in the same room...To that end we have assembled what I feel is the finest selection of speakers for our clients to chose from. Thanks again to Marty and Steve and I wish all audiophiles and music lovers everywhere the best!
 
Mac with SF is a very common pairing.

And the new Mac gear is excellent. If you havent heard 601s, 2301s, etc you really owe it to yourself to try it. Stunning build quality and sound.

Im a bit confused why bass was such a focus - as that is so room dependent and both speakers hae large bass drivers. And you both use subs.
 

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