Yes, but people got used to call it "pressurizing" in audiophile jargon, so we should follow the usual trend.
Magico S5's in the house...
- Thread starter MadFloyd
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Yes, but people got used to call it "pressurizing" in audiophile jargon, so we should follow the usual trend.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I think this thread brings the question of EQ in the bass region.
We all know it is a lot easier to attenuate bass than amplify it with EQ.
There is no one speaker system that does it all, as some recordings are bass shy and others are bass heavy.
EQ in the bass can give you added flexibility in what you want to hear, with the all music you want to listen to.
We all know it is a lot easier to attenuate bass than amplify it with EQ.
There is no one speaker system that does it all, as some recordings are bass shy and others are bass heavy.
EQ in the bass can give you added flexibility in what you want to hear, with the all music you want to listen to.
You must consider the room acoustics and said treatment/design before a broad brush statement like that sticks.
I agree, Martin Colloms' reviews are very accurate and fair.
Here's his in room FR measurements of the Magico S5s verses his reference WA S3s:
Here's his in room FR measurements of the Magico S5s verses his reference WA S3s:
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Hi Ian,
Congratulations for giving yourself the opportunity to compare your Sashas with the S5s using the Pass Labs gear. I believe it has the potential for tremendous complimentary performance and satisfaction.
May I make a couple of observations?
First, you've been listening to, and advocating for the Wilson sound for a considerable time. Shifting from that preference may take awhile, whatever speakers you audition or live with.
Second, there's a lot going on in your listening room (including two full sets of speakers in the same space simultaneously), including the room's complex shape and proportions.
Third, your cabling was just changed from Transparent to MIT, to match/compliment your Sashas --but not necessarily the S5s.
Fourth, Jim Smith's RoomPlay at your house revolved around the Sashas, while you have no parallel experience of the S5s --yet.
Fifth, (if you think it's pertinent) it may not be possible to 'load' your room, based upon its open and asymmetric plan.
Sixth, your experience of what have been reference recordings for you may change unalterably as this process unfolds. ( I was shocked to hear Peter's system recently. His recent changes have proved a 'game changer,' and I didn't think there was a lot of room for improvement. The frequency balance of most recordings we used as the ones we use as references is almost drastically different than before these changes )
Seventh, I ran out at sixth.
Would you consider, or have you already:
1) removed the Sashas from the room? (you mentioned wanting to do this: I'll help if you don't get it done before I can come)
2) have someone play your bass in your listening room while you listen, comparing this to a similar recording played through the S5s?
3) consider that when there's a potential 'game-changer' introduced to your room, your thoughts about your reference sources' sound may need to change, too?
4) consider that your current cabling may not compliment the S5s? (as much as this may prove a pain in the @ss)
5) consider that the S5s may need a completely different room position than the Sashas, once the Sashas are out of the room?
6) consider that the S5s may require room treatment where the Sashas appear not to have needed it?
7) consider that moving the S5s toward the back wall to augment bass may not work until the Sashas are out of the room?
8) consider that moving the S5s further into the room may be the path to best bass (as it did with my Aurum Acoustics speakers)?
9) consider that this is a process you've given yourself the opportunity to undertake, and that it may take some very considerable amount of time to optimize?
10) that, despite your very considerable experience as both a musician and audiophile, this is a great deal to undertake 'all at once'? You're literally changing what you're listening to, changing the sound design philosophy from Dave Wilson's to Aalon Woolf's. It's a genuine paradigm change.
When you've listened at my house, you've been fairly pleased with the bass reproduced by the sealed Aurum Acoustics speaker design. They are -3dB at 30 Hz, -6dB at 24 Hz and -10 dB at 20Hz, and you have heard them with and without subs. The last time you listened --and liked the sound better than before, I believe-- the left channel woofer was not working because the woofer channel amp was out, and there was correspondingly only one sub playing.
I suspect a great deal of what the S5s may be able to do will require very careful room positioning and possibly some component matching (in this case meaning cables, fuses, Stillpoints, etc) and possibly some room treatment, but most of all --and most importantly-- TIME to recalibrate your ears' long-standing reference point of Dave Wilson's approach to sound reproduction.
No matter your final choice, I'm really happy you're giving yourself this test-bed opportunity at home, where you can tune your system to your preferences with all the time you need. You're going to learn a lot from the process: I think it's really exciting!
Very Best of Luck, Patience/Persistence and Fulfillment,
David
Congratulations for giving yourself the opportunity to compare your Sashas with the S5s using the Pass Labs gear. I believe it has the potential for tremendous complimentary performance and satisfaction.
May I make a couple of observations?
First, you've been listening to, and advocating for the Wilson sound for a considerable time. Shifting from that preference may take awhile, whatever speakers you audition or live with.
Second, there's a lot going on in your listening room (including two full sets of speakers in the same space simultaneously), including the room's complex shape and proportions.
Third, your cabling was just changed from Transparent to MIT, to match/compliment your Sashas --but not necessarily the S5s.
Fourth, Jim Smith's RoomPlay at your house revolved around the Sashas, while you have no parallel experience of the S5s --yet.
Fifth, (if you think it's pertinent) it may not be possible to 'load' your room, based upon its open and asymmetric plan.
Sixth, your experience of what have been reference recordings for you may change unalterably as this process unfolds. ( I was shocked to hear Peter's system recently. His recent changes have proved a 'game changer,' and I didn't think there was a lot of room for improvement. The frequency balance of most recordings we used as the ones we use as references is almost drastically different than before these changes )
Seventh, I ran out at sixth.
Would you consider, or have you already:
1) removed the Sashas from the room? (you mentioned wanting to do this: I'll help if you don't get it done before I can come)
2) have someone play your bass in your listening room while you listen, comparing this to a similar recording played through the S5s?
3) consider that when there's a potential 'game-changer' introduced to your room, your thoughts about your reference sources' sound may need to change, too?
4) consider that your current cabling may not compliment the S5s? (as much as this may prove a pain in the @ss)
5) consider that the S5s may need a completely different room position than the Sashas, once the Sashas are out of the room?
6) consider that the S5s may require room treatment where the Sashas appear not to have needed it?
7) consider that moving the S5s toward the back wall to augment bass may not work until the Sashas are out of the room?
8) consider that moving the S5s further into the room may be the path to best bass (as it did with my Aurum Acoustics speakers)?
9) consider that this is a process you've given yourself the opportunity to undertake, and that it may take some very considerable amount of time to optimize?
10) that, despite your very considerable experience as both a musician and audiophile, this is a great deal to undertake 'all at once'? You're literally changing what you're listening to, changing the sound design philosophy from Dave Wilson's to Aalon Woolf's. It's a genuine paradigm change.
When you've listened at my house, you've been fairly pleased with the bass reproduced by the sealed Aurum Acoustics speaker design. They are -3dB at 30 Hz, -6dB at 24 Hz and -10 dB at 20Hz, and you have heard them with and without subs. The last time you listened --and liked the sound better than before, I believe-- the left channel woofer was not working because the woofer channel amp was out, and there was correspondingly only one sub playing.
I suspect a great deal of what the S5s may be able to do will require very careful room positioning and possibly some component matching (in this case meaning cables, fuses, Stillpoints, etc) and possibly some room treatment, but most of all --and most importantly-- TIME to recalibrate your ears' long-standing reference point of Dave Wilson's approach to sound reproduction.
No matter your final choice, I'm really happy you're giving yourself this test-bed opportunity at home, where you can tune your system to your preferences with all the time you need. You're going to learn a lot from the process: I think it's really exciting!
Very Best of Luck, Patience/Persistence and Fulfillment,
David
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I like MC reviews, but his bass summations are questionable. They often don't reconcile with JA measurements of the same speaker. Have a look at Alexia measurements in both magazines. in Stereophile, the bass summation drops like a rock below 50Hz. And you can see the typical Wilson voicing with a +4dB at 80-90Hz to give you the impression the speaker has a lot of bass.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-loudspeaker-measurements
Same story if you have a look at XLF or MAXX measurements.
In reality, Wilson speakers are not very extended in the bass, but they have excess bass around 70-90Hz which fools your ears... People may like it, but it is far from linear and from the reality of a live instrument.
I personally prefer linear voicing of the bass, because with a bass bump, you hide details in the mid range. And I prefer sealed bass because it doesn't artificially boost bass with a lot of out of phase air from the port- you gain a lot of information in the bass with a sealed design. But yes, you need to reeducate your ears for a few months, and then there is no way back to ported.
Well... the Magico bass issue continues....I have wondered about this for some time. Expressed my feeling on this forum as well. I have the KEF 207/2. They move air! But whenever I listen to a Magico, I am charmed by the transparancy and lack of overhang. So....maybe Magico does things the way things should be done. I simpy love Magico designs! take their design over any KEF with the exclusion of the Muon (which I consider the most beautiful speaker ever built). Maybe this is the best way to get the best (live) sound: A Magico speaker with a decent sub! Is this some item for a new thread: How many Magico owners also use a sub???
Cheers,
Wim
Cheers,
Wim
The bass response measurements that MC, JA, and anyone else make in a "normal" listening room only show the results of the speaker and its' interaction with the room, at least to some extent. The attempts that JA makes at more accurate results by close up measurement of the woofer cone and port, if there is one, and scaling the results, etc. are pseudo scientific. Read Mr. Shaw of Harbeth Speaker reply to him regarding the Stereophile measurements of Harbeth speakers. The speaker must be measured in a large anechoic chamber for true low frequency response results. Luckily, SoundStage does this at the NRC chamber in Canada. My point is that low frequency measurements published in most HiFi magazines are not definitive. All that said, I too prefer the low frequency performance of Magico speakers. Having progressed from Wilson to Avalon, also ported but using the port as a means of "unloading" the woofers to allow quicker transient response, to now Magico and making reference to the sound of live acoustic instruments, the correct approach is clear.
I agree. I have the diminutive Magico Mini 2, and though the extension is not what you hear with the larger Magico speakers, the mid/bass transparence, articulation and impact are incredible. Within its limits, it is very natural sounding. I tried to integrate two JL Audio F110 subs in my small room and found that it was a trade off - more extension, but less midrange clarity/purity. I decided to sell the subs and listen to the Mini 2 only. I have absolutely no regrets.
Madfloyd has a larger open room, so it may take some time to get used to this new bass sound. I hope to hear his system soon. I know the sound of his Alexias pretty well. I'm really looking forward to hearing the S5 in his space.
peter, when you tried the JLs, did you roll the LFs to the minis or were they running full range? if the former, no disagreements, as a passive xover is about as obvious as a fart in church when speakers are as transparent as magicos are.
but re: an earlier ?, yes, i'm running S3s w/ JL F110s (two) and have very very good and satisfying sound these days.
but re: an earlier ?, yes, i'm running S3s w/ JL F110s (two) and have very very good and satisfying sound these days.
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