Problems with Mac El Capitan and USB-X

Steve williams

Steve williams

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I have a modest digital library of about 7 TB's of data which previously were stored on three external hard drives. These I have recently moved to an NAS Server. I use a Mac with JRiver as the player. I use the Playback Designs USB-X box to communicate between my Mac Desk Book Pro and my Playback Designs MPS-5. Life was good until late last week when I wanted to play some music via the NAS. I had gone to bed the previous evening having listening through the above mentioned gear with no problems. I did experience a problem when the USB-X box slipped off my rack shelf and was hanging by the side of the shelf by the optical glass wire. Worried I turned everything on and much to my dismay my computer could not see the USB-X box nor could JRiver. This went on all this past weekend. regardless of whatever I did to correct the problem. I even drove 30 miles to the closest Fry electronics to buy a new set of glass cables with the thought that I broke the cable when the box slipped from rack shelf. Couldn't wait to get home to install the new cable only to find out that this did absolutely nothing. I was clueless. As a result I phoned Andreas Koch to find out what I did and what I can do to fix the problem as I thought perhaps the box was broken. It took me over an hour to get through as Andreas' line was busy. He returned my call and I explained the problem. He asked me if I run a Mac to which I said yes. He then asked if I noticed the problem 4 days ago after I upgraded to OS El Capitan to which I said yes. Andreas said his line was busy because he is getting calls from Mac users all over the world who have updated to El Capitan and had the same problem as I did. The short story is that El Capitan does not support USB-X whereas Yosemite does. Now to uninstall El Capitan and go back to Yosemite is not impossible but takes a bit of work. Interestingly the internet is filled with hits on people who want to uninstall El Capitan and revert to Yosemite.

So if you're running a MAC with your Playback Designs USB-X box don't update to El Capitan or be prepared ........
 
From the Playback Designs website......


Preliminary tests with the most recent release of Apple's El Capitan OS X release (version 10.11) have shown that our hardware is no longer properly recognized when the USB cable is connected. This was not a problem with any of Apple's older releases (Yosemite and older). This appears to be a problem with Apple's new USB driver which is built into the OS. We are working with Apple engineers to resolve this as quickly as possible. According to user forums we are not the only manufacturer experiencing this problem. In the meantime we recommend to not update your Mac to El Capitan, or revert back to the previous release (Yosemite).
 
After many hours of work yesterday my son successfully uninstalled El Capitan and reinstalled Yosemite and as Andreas predicted all was once again normal in playing my digital files through my Playback Designs DAC via the USB-X box.

Bottom line is not to update to El Capitan until the fix is made
 
Steve Williams said:
I have a modest digital library of about 7 TB's of data which previously were stored on three external hard drives. These I have recently moved to an NAS Server. I use a Mac with JRiver as the player. I use the Playback Designs USB-X box to communicate between my Mac Desk Book Pro and my Playback Designs MPS-5. Life was good until late last week when I wanted to play some music via the NAS. I had gone to bed the previous evening having listening through the above mentioned gear with no problems. I did experience a problem when the USB-X box slipped off my rack shelf and was hanging by the side of the shelf by the optical glass wire. Worried I turned everything on and much to my dismay my computer could not see the USB-X box nor could JRiver. This went on all this past weekend. regardless of whatever I did to correct the problem. I even drove 30 miles to the closest Fry electronics to buy a new set of glass cables with the thought that I broke the cable when the box slipped from rack shelf. Couldn't wait to get home to install the new cable only to find out that this did absolutely nothing. I was clueless. As a result I phoned Andreas Koch to find out what I did and what I can do to fix the problem as I thought perhaps the box was broken. It took me over an hour to get through as Andreas' line was busy. He returned my call and I explained the problem. He asked me if I run a Mac to which I said yes. He then asked if I noticed the problem 4 days ago after I upgraded to OS El Capitan to which I said yes. Andreas said his line was busy because he is getting calls from Mac users all over the world who have updated to El Capitan and had the same problem as I did. The short story is that El Capitan does not support USB-X whereas Yosemite does. Now to uninstall El Capitan and go back to Yosemite is not impossible but takes a bit of work. Interestingly the internet is filled with hits on people who want to uninstall El Capitan and revert to Yosemite.

So if you're running a MAC with your Playback Designs USB-X box don't update to El Capitan or be prepared ........
Click to expand...

Steve, stories like this is why I recommend purpose built audio renderers and not computers as sources. One will never, ever achieve SOTA sound with a MAC or Windows computer. They are not purpose built for audio. In 7 years of using purpose built devices, designed by audio engineers, NOT computer engineers, I have never run into an O/S or software incompatibility. Not once. Relying on a commercial OS is the kiss of death.

I can't stress enough about how these products are designed to take ALL the stress of the computer out of the listening room, where it has no place.

Below is my Bryston BDP-2 It outputs every known format including DSD. It connects to any USB DAC, and has AES/EBU, and BNC outputs. I have my library on remote computer, but you can also connect up to SIX hard drives. I have a little flash drive attached for my "hot new" acquisitions, but everything else gets streamed via gigabit ethernet. I use made in Sweden Supra Ethernet Cat7 cables and a SoTM Ethernet filter.

IMG_1765.JPG
 
Steve Williams said:
Thanks for all the great advice Andre
Click to expand...

If you go that route, remember all these devices offer different feature sets. Some offer the ability to connect
storage, some don't, some are Ethernet only, some have WiFi, some don't, some lock you into a proprietary
control app (bad), some allow for any control app to be used (good).

The support offered is also paramount. Bryston has 6 full time engineers working on their digital products. Auralic, it has been said,
has none.

Ultimately most of the good ones run on Linux or some variant, with custom firmware, have no display (very good), linear power supplies,
no fans, and simply communicate with the DAC with no hinderance.
 
while I agree in principle with Andre that peace of mind for us server file listeners can be dicey using main line windows or mac products, I disagree that one should particularly avoid windows (can't comment on mac) completely. the facts are that great tech that is constantly being made for these main line machines that can continually advance the performance. one simply has to be able to isolate these machines from all the crap they don't need. then you get the best tech and peace of mind.

first off; you use Win Server 2012 R2 Standard Edition, and operate that in 'core mode' to eliminate all the crap.

then you install Audiphile Optimizer that further suppresses bad things.

these 2 steps turn your CPU into an audio appliance. no more unwanted stuff.

and then you have an upgradable computer instead of a closed system that can get easily outdated.
 
Steve Williams said:
Thanks as well Mike. I noticed the R2 has MSRP of $6200. Where do you have yours.
Click to expand...

I think it's this one for $699. I think the $6200 version is for managing a large server with 100 thin clients.....so it's more about how many PC's you are managing.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...gclid=CL_j_4WLu8gCFROSfgodJXYA8A&gclsrc=aw.ds

my son Steve, the network engineer, actually used a 'trial' download of this product and I will pay the license fee later. I'm not the right person to spec this purchase. I can get more precise details for you if you need them.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
while I agree in principle with Andre that peace of mind for us server file listeners can be dicey using main line windows or mac products, I disagree that one should particularly avoid windows (can't comment on mac) completely. the facts are that great tech that is constantly being made for these main line machines that can continually advance the performance. one simply has to be able to isolate these machines from all the crap they don't need. then you get the best tech and peace of mind.

first off; you use Win Server 2012 R2 Standard Edition, and operate that in 'core mode' to eliminate all the crap.

then you install Audiphile Optimizer that further suppresses bad things.

these 2 steps turn your CPU into an audio appliance. no more unwanted stuff.

and then you have an upgradable computer instead of a closed system that can get easily outdated.
Click to expand...

Mike, yes another option for sure. But still very, very kludgey, far too many moving parts for someone who just wants to listen to music. The fact that you have disengage all major process and employ all sorts of optimizers is absolute proof these devices were never intended for audiophile use. Good luck everytime there is an OS update.

Actually, Bryston, for one is far from a closed system. There have been 3 major firmware upgrades in 8 years. I can work as a DLNA server, as an MPD based file playback system with directly connected storage, as a NAS, with Open Home, and is controllable via dozens of apps. The very anti thesis of a closed system.

Bryston is just one player. There are others like SoTM, Aurender, and dozens more.

It is about time these distress posts disappear from folks trying to turn a consumer grade foxxconn box into an SOTA transport.

P.S. that is not to mention the endless hardware incompatibilities. Audiophile manufacturers and simply do not have the resources to keep up with
Windows and Mac updates.
 
Last edited:
Steve Williams said:
What I don't know Andre is whether I would still need the Playback Designs USB-X if I used a device such as Bryston
Click to expand...
Steve, the Bryston, like others is strictly a bit perfect file renderer. There is no on board DAC. It has one job and one job only. To send any digital file to your DAC perfectly..FLAC, AIFF, DSF, WAV, ALAC etc.

The USB-X, if I understand is simply the USB interface for Playback gear. I think there stuff sounds absolutely outstanding, but I honestly never understood their USB implementation.

But that is neither here or there. You would output USB, AES/EBU, or BNC to your DAC from the BDP just like a computer. USB is the only transmission for DSD currently.

Let's also be clear the BDP, and the Auralic, and the Aurenders, etc ARE computers..but purpose designed and built by audio engineers. Not propeller heads who would not know an mp3 from a 192 kHz FLAC.
 
Andre Marc said:
If you go that route, remember all these devices offer different feature sets. Some offer the ability to connect
storage, some don't, some are Ethernet only, some have WiFi, some don't, some lock you into a proprietary
control app (bad), some allow for any control app to be used (good).

The support offered is also paramount. Bryston has 6 full time engineers working on their digital products. Auralic, it has been said,
has none.

Ultimately most of the good ones run on Linux or some variant, with custom firmware, have no display (very good), linear power supplies,
no fans, and simply communicate with the DAC with no hinderance.
Click to expand...

Andre, so Auralic told you they have no engineers working on their digital products? Or is this just information you heard third hand from someone. I find your comment in regards to Auralic's staffing odd as Mr Wang has reported a software development team focused full time on the development and evolutions of their Lighting DS applications, Lighting Server, as well as the firmware for the Auralic Aries.

Seems a bit unfair to Auralic, no? Unless of course you verified this with them.
 
bplexico said:
Andre, so Auralic told you they have no engineers working on their digital products? Or is this just information you heard third hand from someone. I find your comment in regards to Auralic's staffing odd as Mr Wang has reported a software development team focused full time on the development and evolutions of their Lighting DS applications, Lighting Server, as well as the firmware for the Auralic Aries.

Seems a bit unfair to Auralic, no? Unless of course you verified this with them.
Click to expand...

No, no. I meant resources specific to customer support. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I heard this directly from Auralic owners who told me about numerous unanswred emails and phone calls.
 
bplexico said:
Andre, so Auralic told you they have no engineers working on their digital products? Or is this just information you heard third hand from someone. I find your comment in regards to Auralic's staffing odd as Mr Wang has reported a software development team focused full time on the development and evolutions of their Lighting DS applications, Lighting Server, as well as the firmware for the Auralic Aries.

Seems a bit unfair to Auralic, no? Unless of course you verified this with them.
Click to expand...

Just to porvide a little more perspetive..Auralic is eliminating all further development for Android. And thry still have no iPhone app.

That puts them behind the competition.

Don't get me wrong...i really like Auralic products.
 
The problem with the dedicated renderers is that their user interface is way behind. The Bryston app was horrible when I last saw it and so was the Lumin. If you can't use JRemote or Rune you might as well just not use digital as defeats the only advantage of digital - convenience.
 
MadFloyd said:
The problem with the dedicated renderers is that their user interface is way behind. The Bryston app was horrible when I last saw it and so was the Lumin. If you can't use JRemote or Rune you might as well just not use digital as defeats the only advantage of digital - convenience.
Click to expand...

I think you may be several years behind. Bryston has not had an app for quite a while. When used as a DLNA renderer
you can choose ANY app you want..I use Audionet, Linn Kazzoo, and several others. When the BDP is used with locally
stored files, you use MPAD, or others. I am not familiar the Lumin app.

Let's leave statements about advantages/advantages of digital out of this thread please.
 
OK, a couple of things that I see here that I feel I must address:

1- Mike mentioned the benefit of having an "upgradable computer" instead of a "closed system". There are pros and cons of the "mix and match the components" approach. One of them is reliability. Drivers fighting each other, and everybody fighting Windows/MacOS. Throw ease of use out the window. But of course, at any given time, a fully tricked out computer might perform better than even the most cutting edge server, as it takes longer to develop and ship a proper server than to replace a card in a hotrodded PC.
2- Ian mentioned that dedicated renderers have UIs that's "far behind". Most streamers rely on either UPNP or OpenHome/DS, and you can use lots of different apps to control them, including JRemote! Matter of fact, you can use the Lumin app to control an Auralic, the Linn app to control the MSB renderer, etc. The only system that forces you to use their own app, AFAIK, is the Aurender, whose app is, by far, the most solid and stable that I've ever used.
3- Steve, if you adopt a proper streamer, most will have an SPDIF or AES/EBU out, and you won't need the USB-X. But as with (almost) anything in audio, it's best to experiment, as it's not a given that the other ports will perform better than USB. This is really heavily device dependent.
4- Auralic support has been outstanding so far for me, and my customers. I think it's bad they dropped Android support, but as an ex-programmer/developer, Android is a nightmare, and for a small company, they're right to focus. Auralic's Lightning DS app is *by far* the most complex of all the apps out there. It does 10x more than all the other apps, as it's not merely a "control point". It actually catalogues your collection, reading and interpreting tags, something that the other apps leave for the computer/desktop.

Hope this helps :D
Alex
 
asiufy said:
OK, a couple of things that I see here that I feel I must address:

1- Mike mentioned the benefit of having an "upgradable computer" instead of a "closed system". There are pros and cons of the "mix and match the components" approach. One of them is reliability. Drivers fighting each other, and everybody fighting Windows/MacOS. Throw ease of use out the window. But of course, at any given time, a fully tricked out computer might perform better than even the most cutting edge server, as it takes longer to develop and ship a proper server than to replace a card in a hotrodded PC.
2- Ian mentioned that dedicated renderers have UIs that's "far behind". Most streamers rely on either UPNP or OpenHome/DS, and you can use lots of different apps to control them, including JRemote! Matter of fact, you can use the Lumin app to control an Auralic, the Linn app to control the MSB renderer, etc. The only system that forces you to use their own app, AFAIK, is the Aurender, whose app is, by far, the most solid and stable that I've ever used.
3- Steve, if you adopt a proper streamer, most will have an SPDIF or AES/EBU out, and you won't need the USB-X. But as with (almost) anything in audio, it's best to experiment, as it's not a given that the other ports will perform better than USB. This is really heavily device dependent.
4- Auralic support has been outstanding so far for me, and my customers. I think it's bad they dropped Android support, but as an ex-programmer/developer, Android is a nightmare, and for a small company, they're right to focus. Auralic's Lightning DS app is *by far* the most complex of all the apps out there. It does 10x more than all the other apps, as it's not merely a "control point". It actually catalogues your collection, reading and interpreting tags, something that the other apps leave for the computer/desktop.

Hope this helps :D
Alex
Click to expand...

Alex, my friend, thanks for your perspective. Much appreciated.

Pretty much agree with your post, although I will say I have yet to hear a hot rodded Windows or Mac computer that could touch
a SOTA transport. At least that my experience in hearing hundreds of set ups. John Atkinson in his recent review of the Antipodes streamer admitted
that in using his "tricked out" Mac Mini for the past ten years he has been reviewing with a compromised source as he NEVER even got it to sound
as good as his Ayre disc player.

As far as Auralic, they have had growing pains. The Aries suffered from a noisy display, so noisy you could hear it from the listening position. The Lightening app has been a work in progress, to put it politely. They promised features that took a very long time to appear.

But..before it seems like I am slamming them, the only thing they be guilty of is being over ambitious...in other words, their intentions are good and they really do want to offer great products. Heck I WANT an Aries Mini..and I don't even need it!

I still think their resources cannot match those of other companies. How many US employees to they have?

I know this, they certainly have a US PR agent.
 
This is all very interesting, because I am considering a streaming solution for my system. Right now I am trying to decide if I build a Windows HTPC, or buy a dedicated renderer. The advantage of the Windows PC is that it can be used for all sorts of other things, e.g. applying DSP. The other advantage is that I can download the software and use it for a trial period ... as opposed to dropping multi-thousand $$$ on an Aurender and finding that the interface does not work for me. The disadvantage, as you say, is that it is unreliable, and there are too many unnecessary services.
 
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