RMAF: The Interocitor Saved My Life

garylkoh

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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232
1,690
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
Well........ if not my life, at least it saved my show! ;)

This is BIG, and I didn't want to wait until after the show to post this.

You know how it is - a bunch of equipment, a strange room, bad electricity. Surely a recipe for ground disaster. I avoid most of it by going all balanced, but sometimes it just isn't enough.

We had all the computer servers and digital stuff plugged into one power conditioner on one outlet, the analog source and preamp into another power conditioner on another outlet, a monoblock and loudspeaker on one outlet on one side of the room, and a monoblock and loudspeaker on another outlet on the other side of the room.

I had set it up first with analog and all seemed fine. Unfortunately, the moment I plugged the digital part of the system in, the soundstage on the analog collapsed, and a slight buzz crept into the system. The digital was almost unlistenable because the level of the buzz was so high!

The usual solution would have been to pull the ground pins on all the amplifiers in the front of the room, and have the preamp as the only grounded piece in the whole system.

Enter the Interocitor by Steve McCormack. I put it between the preamp and the monoblocks, and all buzzing went away.

It is a galvanic isolation transformer coupled device that isolates all circuits. And, it's totally transparent (which I verified with the analog source). Unfortunately, because it uses the same high-quality transformers that Steve uses in his $17,000 VRE01 preamplifier, it is expensive.

Steve is convinced that he no one will buy it for his $2,000 asking price direct (and $2,500 with upgraded sockets). However, I'm sure that he will be inundated with orders once people know about it.

It not only solves grounding problems, it impedance matches source and output, converts from single-ended to balanced and vice versa. In some systems, adding it will improve the sonics if a tube preamp and a SS power amp or single-ended power amp and balanced power amp is used.

I'm totally jazzed and excited with this unexpected find - and it really saved my show.
 
garylkoh said:
This is BIG, and I didn't want to wait until after the show to post this.

...the moment I plugged the digital...in, the soundstage...collapsed...almost unlistenable because...the buzz was so high!

Enter the Interocitor by Steve McCormack. I put it between the preamp and the monoblocks, and all buzzing went away...a galvanic isolation transformer coupled device that isolates all circuits. And, it's totally transparent ... It not only solves grounding problems, it impedance matches source and output, converts from single-ended to balanced and vice versa. In some systems, adding it will improve the sonics if a tube preamp and a SS power amp or single-ended power amp and balanced power amp is used.

I'm totally jazzed and excited with this unexpected find - and it really saved my show.
Click to expand...
I DEFINITELY want to know more. i live in an apartment, and run tubed DAC, tubed pre (SE-only) into a balanced SS Class A amp (balanced only)...so many reasons to learn more about something like this. I have considered tripoint's power conditoners and grounding block...this seems intriguing. how do we find out more?
 
I think Gary qualifies as pro audio people. If he is impressed with it, i am intrigued. 'Nuff said! ;)
 
fas42 said:
This sounds the sort of thing that pro audio people use on a daily basis, with the addition of ridiculous, audiophile pricing. If you can sell it for that much and get away with it, then go for it, boy!!

Frank
Click to expand...

Frank

you need to take a big breath and relax. Perhaps you don't understand Gary's consternation having a room at the show with his newest speakers on display with a deafening buzz and needing a quick fix. As lloyd said "nuff said"
 
fas42 said:
This sounds the sort of thing that pro audio people use on a daily basis, with the addition of ridiculous, audiophile pricing. If you can sell it for that much and get away with it, then go for it, boy!!

Frank
Click to expand...

Frank, I use a Rane Balance Buddy - that's the pro version, and it's the sort of thing that pro audio people use everyday. It's a fabulous solution, but it is NOT transparent. With a system that does not require the transparency of Steve's device, that will be a great solution. It's easily available online for $149. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/203683-REG/Rane_BB_22_BALANCE_BUDDY_2_Channel.html

I recommend it all the time, just not for high quality systems. For example, even though it would have helped Lloyd, I would NOT have recommended it to him. This one, though impressed me.
 
lloydelee21 said:
I DEFINITELY want to know more. i live in an apartment, and run tubed DAC, tubed pre (SE-only) into a balanced SS Class A amp (balanced only)...so many reasons to learn more about something like this. I have considered tripoint's power conditoners and grounding block...this seems intriguing. how do we find out more?
Click to expand...

Sorry, Lloyd but I don't have very much information. Steve surprised me with them because I've expressed the need for something like this many times. This time, he turned up with a couple of units - and at exactly the right moment. I usually run all-balanced, but this time I had a single-ended USB DAC that I loved the sound of (instead of my usual Firewire balanced Weiss Minerva), but it caused a problem in the show system.

Drop him an email - details are on the smcaudio.com website. I don't think that he's even planned production yet.
 
Thanks!!!
 
my sympathy

garylkoh said:
You know how it is - a bunch of equipment, a strange room, bad electricity. Surely a recipe for ground disaster. I avoid most of it by going all balanced, but sometimes it just isn't enough.

I had set it up first with analog and all seemed fine. Unfortunately, the moment I plugged the digital part of the system in, the soundstage on the analog collapsed, and a slight buzz crept into the system. The digital was almost unlistenable because the level of the buzz was so high!
Click to expand...

You have my sympathy. Dealing with this kind of problem in a strange room under time pressure with a big downside penalty would be quite nerve wracking.

I change configurations every couple of years and often have a fresh ground loop problem after the change. Eliminating the problem usually takes some experimentation and the remedy seems to be different each time.

garylkoh said:
$2,000 asking price direct (and $2,500 with upgraded sockets).
Click to expand...

Pretty pricey for me. Guess I'll skip the upgraded sockets.

Bill
 
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garylkoh said:
Frank, I use a Rane Balance Buddy - that's the pro version, and it's the sort of thing that pro audio people use everyday. It's a fabulous solution, but it is NOT transparent. With a system that does not require the transparency of Steve's device, that will be a great solution. It's easily available online for $149. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/203683-REG/Rane_BB_22_BALANCE_BUDDY_2_Channel.html
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what I'm talking about, with the sort of price I would have expected. Now, it's only a transformer so here something like a Lundahl should do the trick with the right quality, for hopefully somewhat less than that price. I'm not disputing that you needed a solution, merely that the pricing is exactly what gives the audio game a bad name.

Frank
 
fas42 said:
(...) I'm not disputing that you needed a solution, merely that the pricing is exactly what gives the audio game a bad name.

Frank
Click to expand...

Do you really think it is pricing that gives audio a bad name? I disagree. First, AFAIK, audio does not carry a "bad name". A few people, who seem not to understand what audiophiles are speaking about, like to spread this idea and it is difficult to counteract it, as bad examples stay for long and the many success cases are easily forgotten.

As an example, read what Steve McCormack said about his preamplifier:

"I wanted the VRE-1 to provide a window on the sound of the original recording as authentically as humanly possible. I wanted for the VRE-1 to convey the emotional intent of the musicians unlike so many 'straight wire with gain' preamplifiers that fail in the musicality department and sound cold or analytical. If audiophiles prefer and choose a certain coloration because it suits their tastes better, that's great - as long as they know and understand what transparency is first. If they choose to cater to their own taste, that's just fine. But if they choose coloration because they have never heard what undistorted transparency sounds like, then they have been misled. "

I understand what he means, but please do not ask me to define my own words "undistorted transparency". But I know I have experienced it many times.

IMHO, most of the problem is a communication issue.
 
Thanks, microstrip. I agree completely. If those like Frank think that just popping a Lundahl transformer into a box and declaring it "undistorted transparency" is all it takes, then those are the ones giving high-end audio a bad name.

I know what a pro-audio Rane Balance Buddy can do in a system, I also know what a Lundahl transformer can do, or a Jensen transformer, or a custom-wired transformer can do. But I couldn't do what Steve managed to do with the box that he made up or I would have made one myself. Everytime I wanted something that no one else did (from racks to amplifiers to cables) I designed something for myself. It's my dealers and customers that persuade me to sell something that's not loudspeakers. I've wanted something like this for a couple of years - and I also designed my own single-ended to balanced adapter that sounds far better than just shorting pin 3 (or for some equipment pin 2) to ground. But a galvanic isolation transformer-based design I couldn't achieve transparency.

I'll have to find out from him what he did and provide more information here, but I know that he tried various configurations, and also various suspension systems for the transformers, and also different configurations for the plates that hold the connectors.
 
garylkoh said:
Thanks, microstrip. I agree completely. If those like Frank think that just popping a Lundahl transformer into a box and declaring it "undistorted transparency" is all it takes, then those are the ones giving high-end audio a bad name.
Click to expand...
I apologise if I have offended anyone here, but the mentioning of the price was, at that moment for me, the last straw. As Tim rightly puts out, with a little effort and less money than that device you can provide something like 95% of an excellent audio solution. So sorry, but from someone outside of the audio world this looks quite absurd, and ensures that members of a younger generation really think we're nuts! This is equivalent to buying a MB, having some vibration come through the accelerator pedal, and saying to solve it we need a special third party cushioning pad which costs more than a Honda Civic

Remember, I'm not having a go at Gary, he needed a solution, it was provided and he got on with the job. My gripe is with the industry, as many others have repeated over and over again in multiple threads -- that the consumer is being told constantly if he wants really "good" sound he has to spend money at a quite outrageous rate for what he gets in the hand.

Frank
 
garylkoh said:
Thanks, microstrip. I agree completely. If those like Frank think that just popping a Lundahl transformer into a box and declaring it "undistorted transparency" is all it takes, then those are the ones giving high-end audio a bad name.

I know what a pro-audio Rane Balance Buddy can do in a system, I also know what a Lundahl transformer can do, or a Jensen transformer, or a custom-wired transformer can do. But I couldn't do what Steve managed to do with the box that he made up or I would have made one myself. Everytime I wanted something that no one else did (from racks to amplifiers to cables) I designed something for myself. It's my dealers and customers that persuade me to sell something that's not loudspeakers. I've wanted something like this for a couple of years - and I also designed my own single-ended to balanced adapter that sounds far better than just shorting pin 3 (or for some equipment pin 2) to ground. But a galvanic isolation transformer-based design I couldn't achieve transparency.

I'll have to find out from him what he did and provide more information here, but I know that he tried various configurations, and also various suspension systems for the transformers, and also different configurations for the plates that hold the connectors.
Click to expand...

With you and Micro on this.
I was going to mention Jenving Technology as well, and their transformer product is also not transparent, even with their expertise.

Cheers
Orb
 
microstrip said:
I understand what he means, but please do not ask me to define my own words "undistorted transparency". But I know I have experienced it many times.

IMHO, most of the problem is a communication issue.
Click to expand...
Agreed, it is a communication issue, but you don't have to define "undistorted transparency". I wouldn't be talking the way I often do without understanding exactly what you mean. But the interesting thing is that some people here, without mentioning names, can't accept that I or others can achieve that experience using relatively modest equipment, especially at higher sound levels. Money can be used to solve the problem, but knowledge and precise application of exactly the appropriate materials or parts is another means to an end: good music.

Frank
 
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fas42 said:
This is equivalent to buying a MB, having some vibration come through the accelerator pedal, and saying to solve it we need a special third party cushioning pad which costs more than a Honda CivicFrank
Click to expand...

Hi Frank...i am not sure i agree with that comparison. Car manufacturers do not see themselves (certainly not at the MB level) as providing a car that is at the extreme edge of SOTA and pushing the envelope of performance. Its a high quality, reliable car. In audio, many manufacturers that we discuss in this forum actually do place themselves at that edge...it is, by definition on this forum, the ultimate edge of the extreme that we are discussing. And i agree with your general incredulous sentiment...it IS extreme! So while i agree with you that prices do not always result in commensurate quality...beware the Emperor's New Clothes...i will still say that whenever you pursue a hobby to the extreme, everything gets "out of perspective" by "ordinary folk" who "just dont get it".

If we go back to cars...forget MB...try the guys who hotrod their cars using Nitro to do 0-60 in under 2.5 seconds...and spend tens of thousands (on their Honda Civics!) to get it there. Ironically, just one custom driving seat and seatbelt in that Honda streetracer can cost more than a set of replacement tires for an MB.

Winning the Gold Meal in 100m is a matter of hundredths of a second. Athletes will say their performance is partly dictated by what they ate at least 4 days before the race. Extreme? You bet! Most of dont think about Sunday dinner affecting performance at the office for Thursday's meeting.

I think in Gary's instance, he found a product that was so well built and esigned that it actually fit with his ultra-high level of equipment...as opposed to just being something that just gets rid of hum and matches impedance but is otherwise out of place.

To your point, is it worth 2500? not in parts possibly, if Steve McCormack's own doubts about saleability is a proxy...but once we get to the extreme (and a product does something to a level that the rest of the market products just dont compare)...it generally becomes a little bit of name your price.
 
For once I'd love a thread to stay on topic here, but hey "I'm only dreamin'".:p

Gary found an answer to a situation that obviously was of great concern, and he simply shared his thoughts.
And now it's where?........MB's, Honda Civics and accelator pedals? This is WBF, but right now I'm thinking WTF?
 
Gary, I find no mention of this product on his web site. Is it available for sale or is he still thinking about it? Do you have a picture of it and size/weight?
 
lloydelee21 said:
Hi Frank...i am not sure i agree with that comparison. Car manufacturers do not see themselves (certainly not at the MB level) as providing a car that is at the extreme edge of SOTA and pushing the envelope of performance. Its a high quality, reliable car.
Click to expand...
Ciao!

That highlighted sounds like a good way for making a high fidelity system to me!

If we go back to cars...forget MB...try the guys who hotrod their cars using Nitro to do 0-60 in under 2.5 seconds...and spend tens of thousands (on their Honda Civics!) to get it there. Ironically, just one custom driving seat and seatbelt in that Honda streetracer can cost more than a set of replacement tires for an MB.

Winning the Gold Meal in 100m is a matter of hundredths of a second. Athletes will say their performance is partly dictated by what they ate at least 4 days before the race. Extreme? You bet! Most of dont think about Sunday dinner affecting performance at the office for Thursday's meeting.
Click to expand...
Perhaps a better comparison would be Danley's 150dB capable PA equipment, or Basspig's setup ...

I think in Gary's instance, he found a product that was so well built and esigned that it actually fit with his ultra-high level of equipment...as opposed to just being something that just gets rid of hum and matches impedance but is otherwise out of place.
Click to expand...

To be fair, where MB and such are way ahead is size of market. If they sold in audio sized quantities then anything they did as options to their cars would also be way OTT in price ...

Frank
 
amirm said:
Gary, I find no mention of this product on his web site. Is it available for sale or is he still thinking about it? Do you have a picture of it and size/weight?
Click to expand...

I believe Gary mentioned that it wasn't even a product for offer yet, and Chip wasn't sure he could bring it to market yet.

Lee
 
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