Apogee Full range

bonzo75

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Modded by Henk from Netherlands, heard it as his client in frankfurt. Room 4m wide, around 4m space between panel and front wall, 6m. between speaker center and listening seat, and further space behind listener.

Streamed via Mac into Lyngdorf dac, lyngdorf being used for an active crossover to the bass, while top and mid had a passive crossover. Project Sphinx hybrid amps.

Nakamich TT with Vincent phono and Benz cart.

Nothing fancy in the set up except the speakers. The sound was magical. This was a midrange to die for, creamy and thick and full and real. The Schubert winterreise sounded the best I have heard after the WE. He wasn't into classical but still took down the pic of the LP to order it. Mahler 2 is the best I have heard with the Trios. While I was listening, the loud parts of the symphony came towards me like waves, they just kept coming towards me down the room. After we finished, the other guy too described what he heard as 'waves'. Amazing we were both visualizing the same thing. The soft parts of Mahler were equally delightful, with the flute and clarinet floating up creamily to the center.

The sound wasn't perfect, sometimes the bass was too thick, and there should have been more width for better imaging. Some songs it sounded unbalanced due to excess bass. The owner was an apogeephile, not an audiophile, so didn't care for warming up the system, positioning it perfectly, expensive electronics, etc. Yet I enjoyed this system much more than normal hifi systems I have been auditioning recently. Would I buy this over the MBLs, Wilsons, Focals and Vivids I have heard recently, with expensive electronics

It helped clear my mind. I just love the ribbon tone. Analysis Audio, this Apogee full range, I need to listen to a well set up Dali Megaline with subs.

And these restores are not expensive. I think Henk restores will cost from 10 - 15k GBP. The full range was the first of the apogee speakers made. The new definitives and the Advance 7 (USD $60k) that is coming out now is expected to be much better.
 

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spiritofmusic

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Sounds like you had a fun visit. What are the contact details for this guy, and is obtaining these spkrs a simple ordering job? Any idea of costs? As you know, I'm approaching a time when I want to make a major upgrade, and AG/Cessaros, as well as AA Omegas, are on my shortlist. These should be too.
 

bonzo75

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Sounds like you had a fun visit. What are the contact details for this guy, and is obtaining these spkrs a simple ordering job? Any idea of costs? As you know, I'm approaching a time when I want to make a major upgrade, and AG/Cessaros, as well as AA Omegas, are on my shortlist. These should be too.
Henk from Netherlands and Jon Oke from the UK both restore apogees. Costs can be buying a finished restored full range, or buying a broken used one dirt cheap and paying for the restore. They are restorers for Graz, who makes the ribbons. You can keep improving the specs of your restore - high quality crossovers, super quality frames, etc. The one I heard cost a bit over 10k GBP.
 

bonzo75

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The Advance 7 which is just being made costs 60k USD and is smaller, and the Definitives use higher powered magnets and are $100k. Both of these are higher sensitivity and can be run with SETs
 

spiritofmusic

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Henk from Netherlands and Jon Oke from the UK both restore apogees. Costs can be buying a finished restored full range, or buying a broken used one dirt cheap and paying for the restore. They are restorers for Graz, who makes the ribbons. You can keep improving the specs of your restore - high quality crossovers, super quality frames, etc. The one I heard cost a bit over 10k GBP.
That's amazing value. This c£10k pair outperforms spkrs 5x the price? How do you feel they compare to the Omegas? Esp when it comes to bass extension/impact. For me, I'd be happy to trade a little of the full magic of panels to gain bass closer to box spkr impact, if that indeed is the compromise.
 

bonzo75

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That's amazing value. This c£10k pair outperforms spkrs 5x the price? How do you feel they compare to the Omegas? Esp when it comes to bass extension/impact. For me, I'd be happy to trade a little of the full magic of panels to gain bass closer to box spkr impact, if that indeed is the compromise.
The bass of this is much more than a box, with more presence. Apogees are known for bass. Different bass. They will thunder down at you like a Rugby team breaking down the doors when Mahler is playing. And that bass will be along the panel, so in 7 ft waves.

It's not about 10k outperforming 5 times the price. This was an expensive speaker once. Now it is a restore. And it is like digital vs vinyl, those who like vinyl, will like a 5k TT over a 100k digital stack. Modded garrard beating dCS?
 

bonzo75

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To clarify, these are by no means a perfect speaker, but they just have some things that sound very right, that make them more desirable then a speaker that does a better top to bottom without those special ingredients. I think with Advance 7 these issues would probably have been addressed.
 

spiritofmusic

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The bass of this is much more than a box, with more presence. Apogees are known for bass. Different bass. They will thunder down at you like a Rugby team breaking down the doors when Mahler is playing. And that bass will be along the panel, so in 7 ft waves.

It's not about 10k outperforming 5 times the price. This was an expensive speaker once. Now it is a restore. And it is like digital vs vinyl, those who like vinyl, will like a 5k TT over a 100k digital stack. Modded garrard beating dCS?
Totally get that, I am a big fan of modded Garrards beating a lot of top modern day belt drives.
So this one you heard was the Full Range, a step up from the Duetta/Duetta Signature?
This price is not so much in the sweet spot, but the middle of the cakeshop LOL!
I can't see anything against it, other than dialling in that bass integration. Do you suspect w/careful placement, and amp choice/room treatments/dsp, this model can be made to work seamlessly in most rooms?
Having heard how good the £6k Illusonic dsp was at Purite, and Nick's Auro3D, I have much less of an aversion against such tech now.
How would I go ahead configuring my system, if I audition and like what I hear?
Would I be looking at two pairs of Nat amps, maybe 120W/ch Transmitters for the bass panels, my current 60W/ch SE2SEs for the tweters/mids, refereed by Illusonic/Deqx/Trinnov etc? Or is one set of amps enough?
Tbh, at £15k for a pair of Definitives, another £15k on Transmitters, and £5k on dsp, I'm still on track to beat the entry ticket for AG Trios w/B'horns or Cessaro Liszts, my current go to SOTA choices, and just a tad more than the £27k I might spend on new flagship Zu Experiences or AG Duo Mezzos.
 

bonzo75

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The full range is the biggest of the speakers. That is the one that is 10ish k. Definitives are $100k :). They were made around 11 years ago. The Advance 7 is a newer version of duetta sig and is at $60k, coming out anytime now. Next year he is planning to make the next one up, Advance 7 technology for Divas. The Full range is above Divas, but not with Advance 7 technology.

The Advance 7 have higher quality passive crossovers, and chassis is made from metal, much stronger. Magnetic grid is much more accurate. It is around 88db efficient. The Definitive was 100db. The Advance 7 Diva-Definitive will probably be high efficiency.

If you want to use SETs, you have to spend on getting a definitive or advance 7, or instead get an Analysis Amphitryon.

I really can't comment on how it will sound with good room treatment and good electronics. What's your room size again? I will be careful with Full range and Amphitryon unless rooms are big, as they can cause imaging issues, though SMT type treatment might help. Omega and smaller apogees will probably fit them better. Flyer in Brussels is soon getting an Omega to replace his Rockport Avior in a small room with loads of SMT, and Tenor Audio amps. I am waiting to listen to that, to see how SMT wings handle a planar.

ps: There is a Grand, that is like Full range with a cone at the bottom which is much more expensive, but that is tough to maintain nowadays because of the electronics in the cone, I heard
 
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spiritofmusic

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Bonzo, this is all good stuff. Ok, let's ask q's in sequence.
First, how do you feel this Apogee Full Range sounds compared to the AA Omega you're familiar with from Peter's? Peter is adamant that the Omega can work w/Nat SETs, the SE2SE in a smaller room, the Transmitters in a bigger space.
I haven't heard the Amphytron, but I suppose I could transpose it for the Omegas if indicated.
So, please contrast sq of Apogee Full Range v Omegas and/or Amphytron.
My room is likely to be 18x12x9, or maybe converted triangular cross section loft 45x15x10.
 

bonzo75

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Bonzo, this is all good stuff. Ok, let's ask q's in sequence.
First, how do you feel this Apogee Full Range sounds compared to the AA Omega you're familiar with from Peter's? Peter is adamant that the Omega can work w/Nat SETs, the SE2SE in a smaller room, the Transmitters in a bigger space.
I haven't heard the Amphytron, but I suppose I could transpose it for the Omegas if indicated.
So, please contrast sq of Apogee Full Range v Omegas and/or Amphytron.
My room is likely to be 18x12x9, or maybe converted triangular cross section loft 45x15x10.
In 18 x 12 x 9 room, defo no full range or Amphi. Go Omega or restored Diva or Advance 7. Since you want SETs, Diva is out. Omega cheaper than Advance 7 by far. Or Definitive at 100k USD.

In 45*15 room, defo only full range or Amphi, or if you want to pay more, wait for Advance 7 Diva. Of these, the Full range cannot be driven by SETs unless you try triamping etc.

What are the differences between Analysis and Apogee? I cannot say. Analysis sound is the one you get at Peter's. Apogee more uncertain. The variance will be high between the older lower sensitivity restores, and the newer higher sensitivity much better designs. Of course, if you kind of like the older, and have the money, you can take a leap of faith on the newer designs since they will be better. There is an Advance 7 coming to the UK so you can get to hear it shortly.

My general take comparing Analysis to older Apogees is that Analysis better balanced and a bit more sophisticated. But that might change with the newer Apogee models especially as you can custom spec them. Analysis less bass than Apogees, but that should not be mistaken for low bass. The bass is pretty good, Apogee bass is mental.

I previously thought Analysis had better midrange, among my favorites, but yesterday's was excellent. Though I haven't heard Analysis for over a year now, so I need to listen again. Analysis a bit laid back compared to Apogee. A classical guy can like both, and might prefer Analysis slightly. But rock and electronic definitely more Apogee.

That said, in the 45*15 room, there is always the Analysis Orion, $48k, which is an Amphi with bass panels. So like I said, it is your room and your budget and your music choice that will define the speaker choice. But both are excellent.
 

bonzo75

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I heard an Ypsilon aelius (200w hybrid) + soundlab Ultimates with Ypsilon pre, HRS stack, Purist Audio cables, and Ypsilon CD player just a couple of days before. One thing for sure, I am totally off stats, into ribbons.
 

spiritofmusic

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One of my dilemmas Bonzo, is that to open up the 45x15x10 loft space, I will have to spend a small fortune bracing the roof radically differently, and this will leave me no budget to go for these more expensive models. I gain w/one hand, lose w/the other.
The other critical thing, is that I have ZERO way of predicting what a triangular cross section space and springy floors will bring to the party, I could spend a TON of cash, and get an acoustic that in unmanageable. The risk is extremely high.
No, I am very likely to resign myself to the 18x12x9 conventional space, using Omega or Advance 7. I will have the advantage of a bombproof solidity - the walls are amazingly thick, and the floor beyond indestructable non springy.

SOOO...if the choice is going to be Omega v Advance 7, the latter is a "new" model, not out yet, but soon in the UK? Will the UK distributor likely deal it? It's in the $60k area, and can be run w/SETs like my 60W ch Nats? Do you know if it will require bi amping/dsp, or am I good to go w/current pair of Nats?

I am ready to spend this sort of cash if it gives me a true step change in what I've heard so far from my Zus, AG Duos, Liszts, and prev demo experience of MLs, Wilsons, Magicos, Rockports etc.
 

bonzo75

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Yes the UK distri will deal with it. I don't know much about your amp questions yet. But if you like what you hear, you can defo ask for a more sensitive or bigger version with a year or 18 month waiting time
 

spiritofmusic

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Bonzo, ultimate bass power, if a critical improvement in Apogees over the Omegas, will compensate for any moderate shortfall in delicacy etc the AAs might be king in.
I listen to way more rock, dance, dub, prog, than I do classical. If I can truly get a big step up in what makes ribbons so attractive to you in the Advance 7 w/rocking bass, I would choose this over the omega, I can't imagine I wouldn't.
You're not saying the Apogees are 'poor' on classical, are you?
 

bonzo75

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Bonzo, ultimate bass power, if a critical improvement in Apogees over the Omegas, will compensate for any moderate shortfall in delicacy etc the AAs might be king in.
I listen to way more rock, dance, dub, prog, than I do classical. If I can truly get a big step up in what makes ribbons so attractive to you in the Advance 7 w/rocking bass, I would choose this over the omega, I can't imagine I wouldn't.
You're not saying the Apogees are 'poor' on classical, are you?
No, Apogees are excellent on classical and Analysis are excellent in bass. That is why the choice is so tough. You just have to listen to both and see which balance you prefer. Now again, what if Advance 7 bass is not as loud as old apogees? Which is why better to listen. There is one thing I can say for certain. If you love some of the things in Peter's Omega, you will just have to listen to full range, advance 7, and Amphi
 

bonzo75

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Extract from Enjoy the Music reviews on Analysis Audio Omega and Amphi



As much as I like full-range electrostatics, I would be the first to admit that they can't handle macrodynamics with any kick ass conviction. Even the Apogee planars of old lacked sufficient slam. It's a different story with the Omega. But there's a catch… they clearly need a lot of power.
."
 

spiritofmusic

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Going to contact the UK guy presently. How have you heard the Advance 7s will work w/SETs like the NATs? If Omegas can get away w/SETs in the kind of room I'm considering, I'd hope the Advance 7s could do too.
 

bonzo75

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Going to contact the UK guy presently. How have you heard the Advance 7s will work w/SETs like the NATs? If Omegas can get away w/SETs in the kind of room I'm considering, I'd hope the Advance 7s could do too.
I don't think anyone has heard the Advance 7 yet.
 

spiritofmusic

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Bonzo, just spoken to Jon, the UK Apogee guy, and mentioned you put me onto him.
He confirms the Duetta Advance 7s planned to be w/him "early" in the New Year, they should be fine w/Nat SETs (he knows Peter, and has experience of the Omegas and Nats).
Really contends their construction and bass abilities make them a better candidate for the widest range of music, and no dance or rock fan should want for more.
Additionally, they'll work just fine w/one pr of amps, no multi amping needed (Definitives another matter).
A better choice for SET-lovers than the Full Range.
So, I'll get a taste of excellent sound at Peter's soon, and have a yardstick to compare to the Duetta Advance 7s in Jan or Feb.
 

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