Can a Surge Supressor Degrade Sound Quality?

[Ron Resnick]

I am about to order a Torus WM 90 BAL AVR TVSS balanced power toroidal transformer. The unit comes standard with a "TVSS" (transient voltage surge suppressor), which can be deleted if I do not want it.

Is there any reason to believe that the surge suppressor could affect sound quality in some way?

Thank you!

 

[DaveC]

I'd delete it and use a SurgeX wall mount product in addition to the Torus (disclaimer: I sell modified SurgeX units). SurgeX does use the best surge device and it's 100% transparent to my ears, they have clients like NASA, Boing, Carnegie Hall, Yankee Stadium, etc. The other option would be to use point of use SurgeX as power distribution, but the quality of the receptacles, power cables, etc is not up to par, which is why I modify them. So, I'd run the power through the SurgeX to clean it up and prevent surges from getting to the Torus, then the Torus directly to Furutech GTX(R) receptacles using 10 gauge wire, ideally a twisted pair with a counter-rotating ground wire. It would be best to house the GTX receptacles in an inert, heavy box and tie all the grounds together at one point. You don't want the power distribution box to do any filtering, just distribution as the SurgeX has the filtering and surge covered.

I'm not familiar with the specifics on which SurgeX wall-mount unit to use, I'd call SurgeX and get their advice.

Also, most surge supressors use MOVs, which are noisy and detrimental to sound quality which is why no "audiophile" power distribution systems have surge elimination as a feature. I'm coming out with a unit that uses the exact same surge elimination as SurgeX with improved filtering, parts quality and chassis/footers... it's amazing how much vibration of AC components is audible in your system.

 

[zztop7]

System Protection

I am about to order a Torus WM 90 BAL AVR TVSS balanced power toroidal transformer. The unit comes standard with a "TVSS" (transient voltage surge suppressor), which can be deleted if I do not want it.

Is there any reason to believe that the surge suppressor could affect sound quality in some way?

Thank you!

I clean-up my electricity, but I will skip those items & go right to my major system protection method.
When my system is not in use, there is NO electrical connection to the components [no hot, no neutral, no ground].
The system is not used during storms, therefore electricity is disconnected.
zz.

 

[Folsom]

It depends on if it has any capacitance, most likely. Although I don't know what parts it has, because there's a few others that may not be good.

 

[Occam]

Ron,

The TVSS provided by the Torus units are certainly not MOV based, though is implemented properly, MOVs are quite effective and non-intrusive.
Actually, Torus uses the exact same series mode surge technology that is used by SurgeX, save for the fact that the Torus doesn't require that 100 uH differential inductor, rather relying upon the leakage inductance of the isolation transformer transformer itself.
http://www.toruspower.com/ssp-series-mode-surge-protection/
That same technology is licensed from ZeroSurge is also used by BrickWall and ZeroSurge's own products.

The Torus uses Menno Van der Veen's patented technology [aka Plitron's NBT] to provide impressive differential mode noise attenuation along with the inherent common mode noise attenuation of its isolation transformer.

FWIW

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Occam!

 

[rockitman]

If this is a torus wall mount box...in affect a isolated subpanel, I would avoid the built in surge suppressor. I like torus...it's Piltron after all.

 

[Folsom]

Occam which 100uH inductor? Is it within the box itself? I believe SurgeX sells their unit with one PCB board, and I don't recall "a" inductor on the board. Here's a photo, the board on the right is included with their OEM set I believe.

 

[Frank750]

I am about to order a Torus WM 90 BAL AVR TVSS balanced power toroidal transformer. The unit comes standard with a "TVSS" (transient voltage surge suppressor), which can be deleted if I do not want it.

Is there any reason to believe that the surge suppressor could affect sound quality in some way?

Thank you!

I had the exact same model installed about 14 months ago. I would find it hard to believe you will be anything but ecstatic with the actual performance of the unit or the support you will receive from Torus.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I had the exact same model installed about 14 months ago. I would find it hard to believe you will be anything but ecstatic with the actual performance of the unit or the support you will receive from Torus.

Dear Frank,

Thank you for that report. Am I correct in assuming that your unit has the surge suppressor? Did you consider deleting it when you placed your order?

 

[Ron Resnick]

If this is a torus wall mount box...in affect a isolated subpanel, I would avoid the built in surge suppressor. I like torus...it's Piltron after all.

Dear Christian,

I am inclined to delete the surge suppressor, but Ross Whitney at Torus will think I'm a complete audiophile nut (not that I really care)!

 

[Frank750]

Dear Frank,

Thank you for that report. Am I correct in assuming that your unit has the surge suppressor? Did you consider deleting it when you placed your order?

I spoke directly with Ross at Torus as well as an engineer at the company and they assured me the TVSS would have zero affect on sound quality. Based on the results, I would say they were correct.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for that report, Frank. Ross told me the same thing. But engineers often have a different view than us (kooky) audiophiles!

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Actually there are two surge suppressors in the WM units.

1) is provided as standard, and that is a series mode surge suppressor based on technology licensed from Zero Surge. It is located on the secondary side of the transformer. Mainly intended to protect connected equipment. Note the isolation transformer already provides a large reduction in mid-->high frequency transient voltages.
2) is optional and is on the primary side of the transformer. It is a called a TVSS module (transient voltage surge suppressor). This is an MOV based unit. It's mainly intended to protect the transformer.

Our approach is to use the Environmental Potentials EP-2050 instead of the TVSS module and then to add a EP-2775 Ground Filter. The Torus units do not provide any isolation of the ground (this is nothing unusual, I do not know of any power conditioners that do except the EP units). The EP-2050 is a more sophisticated unit than a TVSS board.

 

[amirm]

If all that is being talked about is the TVSS on the primary side, my strong recommendation is to eliminate that. TVSS only works well when it has a strong ground to shunt the surge into. That strong ground only exists at the panel where the main ground is.

Here is a great measurement that shows what happens when you lengthen the connection to ground from 1 foot to just 3 foot:

As you see, using 1 foot, 75% of the surge is reduced whereas at 3 foot (left graph), you almost get nothing! Using thicker wires has almost no impact either.

So imagine how well such a system works if you put it tens if not 100+ feet away from your panel. What it will do is dump the surge from the main lines into the ground wire of your building. That then transmits the surge into all the other devices in your home!

The only place for a TVSS surge protection device is right at the meter or the main panel. Putting it any other place simply is not going to do any good and may have some harm. If you live in an area where surges are common, then have the power company put one in the meter (usually costs around $400) and then get a proper TVSS that sits right next to your main panel.

Answering the original question, no it won't have any effect on sound either way. These are devices that normally do nothing unless hit with a surge.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you very much, Nyal. Thank you, too, Amir.

I am inclined to ask Torus to eliminate both surge suppressors.

 

[DaveC]

I would not eliminate the Zero Surge device on the secondary side, their series mode surge elimination has no audible downsides, I've tested it in a few dozen systems.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Thank you very much, Nyal. Thank you, too, Amir.

I am inclined to ask Torus to eliminate both surge suppressors.

I would put an EP2050 at the main panel (as per Amir, this is the best place for it), home run the circuit to the Torus from there and include an EP2775 ground filter in series between Torus and panel. I'd spec the Torus without TVSS. Keep the series mode surge protection, there is "ZERO" reason to remove it! If you ask them to remove it you are only being an armchair designer. The guys at Torus know their stuff, and I do not know anyone else who has asked them to remove the series mode surge protection. Many people are extremely satisfied with it just the way it is.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Answering the original question, no it won't have any effect on sound either way. These are devices that normally do nothing unless hit with a surge.

There is a theory that MOVs have leakage capacitance which causes a small current to appear on the ground regardless of whether they are shunting surge to ground or not.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Nyal. I will keep the surge suppressor on the secondary side and delete the TVSS on the primary side.