Dave Grusin's Discovered Again Mistracking

[cbl117]

Does anyone else have trouble cleanly tracking Ron Carter's first bass note on Keep Your Eye on the Sparrow (Side 1, Track 2) from Dave Grusin's Discovered Again?

I have never been able to get that first bass note reproduced cleanly. I've tried 4 different copies (1 US, 1 German, 2 Japanese) and they all have trouble on the first bass note. I'm wondering if this note was too hot when they cut direct to disc. The issue is a slightly buzzy sound on the first bass note. I don't think it's coming from one side, but centered.

My setup is a Brinkmann Taurus with 12.1 tonearm, Hana Umami Red, Cardas Clear Beyond Phono cable, VTL 6.5II phono stage. Gain is set to 56dB and loading is 470ohms. VTF is 2.05g, table is level, AS is set using Peter Ledermann's method. Geometry set using Brinkmann's protractor. Azimuth is set using Fozgometer V2 and visually confirmed. The Hana is new and only has 18 hours on it. Does anyone think the cartridge needs to break in more to become more compliant?

I don't have any mistracking on any other records, which leads me to question whether this is just inherent to the recording. Appreciate any insight!

 

[Another Johnson]

No problem on my copy (bought at first release). Clearaudio Master Reference with Universal 12 and Charisma V2.1.

I looked up the Umami Red tracking specs. They are typical of many moving coils, but low overall. Im going to try it on an LP12 with Lyra Etna Lambda when it gets to the end of the side.

 

[cbl117]

@Another Johnson Thanks for checking. I noticed from your record label that you have the Sheffield Treasury pressing, which is a tape copy from the D2D session. https://www.discogs.com/release/2652272-Dave-Grusin-Discovered-Again

I have that pressing as well, but haven't tried that yet. I'll have to give it a go.

Do you happen to have the D2D pressing to try? It will have a green label with pink flower. https://www.discogs.com/release/1052741-Dave-Grusin-Discovered-Again

 

[Another Johnson]

Klimax LP12 with Lyra Etna Lambda. Very clean again. I can’t find tracking specs for this cartridge, but I think it’s at least 80. Umami Red is 70. Charisma is 90. The old Shure cartridges would track over 100. As you’ve noted 70 is fine for 99% of recordings.

Try the opening artillery shots on the 1812 Overture.

 

[Another Johnson]

Do you happen to have the D2D pressing to try? It will have a green label with pink flower. https://www.discogs.com/release/1052741-Dave-Grusin-Discovered-Again

I haven’t played this in at least 30 years, so I’d forgotten their color schemes. I think I have the D2D, but I’ll have to dig. I bought them as they were released.

What bothered me about this recording was the opening bars of the piano. It is more realistic a few bars in, at least to my ears. Both TTs gave this same impression.

Maybe the Umami Red will track the Treasury version. I hope so.

 

[Another Johnson]

I do have the D2D version. Playing it now on the Clearaudio rig.

Very clean here too. I’ll try it on the Linn next.

 

[Another Johnson]

Very clean and natural again.
FWIW, the Etna Lambda costs about twice the price of the Umami Red, while the Charisma V2.1 is about half. The Etna Lambda tracking force is 1.72 grams. The Charisma V2.1 is 2.4 grams.

 

[cbl117]

@Another Johnson Thanks for taking the time to check! Hmm, so it's not the recording. Do you think the Hana just needs more run-in time to loosen up the suspension? Or perhaps the 70um tracking ability is just reaching it limits on this particular section? I'd hate to invest a lot of time messing with the setup only to end up where I started.

 

[mtemur]

I have D2D copy of Discovered Again. Manufactured in Germany but since it's a D2D recording all are made from same lacquer and father.



It plays without skipping or any other problems on my setup but bass is excessive on this album which makes it unpleasant to play. Maybe excessive bass is making your cartridge to skip. Producers also aware of this excessive bass and the reason for this might be the reversed phase. When you look at inside the gatefold cover you see a note.

I listened to this album also as advised, phase reversed on speakers. Bass level is decreased but not much, still excessive. More importantly bass became tighter and centered.

 

[mtemur]

One final thing, it's not always the cartridge, tonearm might be responsible for skipping.

 

[Another Johnson]

I think that most D2D recordings present excursions that will test the tracking ability of many cartridges. But as you note, 70 is good enough for the vast majority of recordings. If I were you, I’d be pleased that the Umami Red does so well overall. And I’d put this recording away for now. Use it as a test record when you set up your next cartridge.

Regarding the excessive bass issue, neither pressing exhibits excessive bass in my room. The bass is quite natural.

 

[Another Johnson]

As I understand you, you are not complaining about any skipping. Your concern is about mistracking which you correctly understand to manifest as a slight rattle or buzz. 70 is a very modest tracking capability. It is not surprising that it might mistrack on a Sheffield or two.

 

[cbl117]

One final thing, it's not always the cartridge, tonearm might be responsible for skipping.

The stylus isn't skipping. There's just a slight buzz over the the bass note.

 

[cbl117]

As I understand you, you are not complaining about any skipping. Your concern is about mistracking which you correctly understand to manifest as a slight rattle or buzz.

Yes, correct

 

[mtemur]

The stylus isn't skipping. There's just a slight buzz over the the bass note.

Ok, my bad. My copy on my setup plays without any issues, no buzz or mistracking. Again, it should play perfectly and tonearm might be the problem here besides cartridge.

 

[mtemur]

AS is set using Peter Ledermann's method.

It may not be related with the issue here but unfortunately Peter Ledermann's AS method is wrong. It still worth to try more and no AS for the sake of experiment.

 

[miniguy]

Tracks cleanly. No buzz, no rattle. SPU Wood A. 0.7 conical stylus.

 

[cbl117]

I think I figured it out! The anti-skating was pretty far off. It was too low. I played Norah Jones’ Come Away With Me Analogue Production reissue and noticed her voice was a bit smeared across the soundstage and I was getting break up in the right channel. It took a few tries to dial in the anti-skate, but when I did the change was huge. Her voice shrank to near pin point accuracy and was pushed back into the soundstage a bit. More three dimensional. The breakup in the right channel went away. Tried Dave Grusin and that tweak all but eliminated the mistracking on that first bass note!

 

[mtemur]

If you want to check your cartridge’s tracking ability play the first track on side one of this record especially the climax close to end.


Another good record for trackability test is side three of this double Lp.


IMHO those are harder to track than Dave Grusin record and if your cartridge plays these without noticeable distortion you’re all set.