Emm labs DA2 v2 upgrade

[awsmone]

I don’t know about that DRM issue, but originally the two fibre system Meitner developed was for professional use with recording industry and compatible with Sonoma work station with two st optical in, I have several Meitner pro dacs and adc and they are all twin fibre in and out

Meitner first commercial players were also twin fibre between players and dacs

With the move to the X series of all in one players, they moved to single fibre

Their current systems are all single fibre, and double fibre system is not to my knowledge compatible

I didn’t realise the TX players were so limited edition, but that makes sense, and the price also....

 

[Bar81]

The reason for the need to only use one fiber optic connection is that there is no need to send a clock signal to the transport since the DA2 is asynchronous. That's also why it performs well with sources other than the TX2.

 

[awsmone]

Interesting point but the twin fibre is clock in and out

 

[Bar81]

Interesting point but the twin fibre is clock in and out

Yes, to synchronize the clocks of the transport and DAC which isn't required with an asynchronous DAC so all you need is a single cable to transfer data from the transport to the DAC; no clock cables needed like earlier.

BTW, I believe it was actually three cables - one for data and two for clock (one going each way between the units).

 

[GSOphile]

I don’t know about that DRM issue, but originally the two fibre system Meitner developed was for professional use with recording industry and compatible with Sonoma work station with two st optical in, I have several Meitner pro dacs and adc and they are all twin fibre in and out

Meitner first commercial players were also twin fibre between players and dacs

With the move to the X series of all in one players, they moved to single fibre

Their current systems are all single fibre, and double fibre system is not to my knowledge compatible

I didn’t realise the TX players were so limited edition, but that makes sense, and the price also....

DRM = Digital Rights Management assoc with all SACD recordings. It's my understanding that if you have an SACD player that you'd like to use as a transport with another manufacturer's DAC, that's OK for CDs, but not SACDs.

 

[awsmone]

DRM = Digital Rights Management assoc with all SACD recordings. It's my understanding that if you have an SACD player that you'd like to use as a transport with another manufacturer's DAC, that's OK for CDs, but not SACDs.

Lol ... I know what DRM stands for, what I don’t know is the second statement ?

 

[Yuen A.]

Thanks for your USB recommendations

I am not into criticising other equipment

However since I modified my speaker cabling for the Goldmund’s, the DA2 has gone to another level of micro detail, and organic flow

It’s truly extraordinary product

I am looking for a transport for my sacd collection

Hi awsmone,

The only solution is to get the emm labs tsdx transport (same esoteric drive but less expensive).

 

[Yuen A.]

Agree that LAN or HDMI would be a nice upgrade, particularly LAN.

As far as USB cables, I've tried several and I am most impressed with the Stealth Audio Select T. The placement of the filter is critical but rather easy to identify by moving it in 1/2 inch increments and listening for improvements. My filter is about 60% of the length from the computer to the DAC but YMMV. When it's right, the staging is remarkably good in spatial detail as well as timbre.

My sense is that you're either a dCS guy or you're not. I am not. Too sterile. The DA2 is more musical by far with a superior top end. (Perhaps I could be an MSB DAC guy, but my grandkid's college fund is the higher priority. (Besides, not sure i want to pay 100K for a DAC that the Moore's law of DACs suggest will surely be bettered in a few years at a far lower price.)

Hi marty

You said that you could be an MSB DAC guy. What are your thoughts on the MSB vs DA2? Thanks.

 

[marty]

Hi marty

You said that you could be an MSB DAC guy. What are your thoughts on the MSB vs DA2? Thanks.

Yuen
I should have said "perhaps" in the context of extended listening only, which I have not done. I have only heard them at shows. Their top DAC is obviously thought of highly by many folks including Mike Lavigne whose opinion I respect. In that regard, I'd welcome an extended listening experience in my system. However, the pragmatics of cost make it doubtful I will try to accomplish this since I have other more pressing audio needs at the moment. The Meitner gear is wholly satisfactory for me at this point and at a price I can handle. Let me expand upon that a bit.

I can play vinyl and instantly A/B a specific track with the identical digital file through the DA2 at identical volume levels using my VTL 7.5 III preamp. Going back and forth, it is often impossible to tell the two apart on certain material. Now that either means my vinyl sucks (Goldmund Studio/T3F/Benz LPS/ASR phono) or my digital is darned good. I don't think it's the former, but I could be wrong! Now, on other material, the vinyl is easy to distinguish as superior. The question to ask is how much more would a 100K DAC buy me? Would the MSB ever allow me to say it is indistinguishable from vinyl 100% of the time? I doubt it. So now the question is, how much more of the time would I find digital indistinguishable from vinyl if I had a better DAC and what is the price for that differential in performance? I honestly do not know that answer but I know I don't want to spend 100K to find out. Bottom line, I am extremely pleased with the Meitner TX2/DA2. It is a beautiful instrument, sounds great and gets out of the way of the music which is job #1. The day may come (and most certainly will) where a less expensive DAC will do a better job than the DA2. I don't think advancements in other areas such as amplification and speaker design are going to move as fast in terms of performance per dollar as will occur with DACs, so for those reasons, the Meitner gear is not a link I would consider targeting for improvement as the cost of doing so now is unattractive to me personally. As I said, I have other fish to fry so I will ride the TX2/DA2 into the sunset for now because its a sonic superstar that I don't think is easily bettered without spending really big bucks (and even that is an assumption but one I'm willing to make for now).
Marty

 

[awsmone]

Yuen
I should have said "perhaps" in the context of extended listening only, which I have not done. I have only heard them at shows. Their top DAC is obviously thought of highly by many folks including Mike Lavigne whose opinion I respect. In that regard, I'd welcome an extended listening experience in my system. However, the pragmatics of cost make it doubtful I will try to accomplish this since I have other more pressing audio needs at the moment. The Meitner gear is wholly satisfactory for me at this point and at a price I can handle. Let me expand upon that a bit.

I can play vinyl and instantly A/B a specific track with the identical digital file through the DA2 at identical volume levels using my VTL 7.5 III preamp. Going back and forth, it is often impossible to tell the two apart on certain material. Now that either means my vinyl sucks (Goldmund Studio/T3F/Benz LPS/ASR phono) or my digital is darned good. I don't think it's the former, but I could be wrong! Now, on other material, the vinyl is easy to distinguish as superior. The question to ask is how much more would a 100K DAC buy me? Would the MSB ever allow me to say it is indistinguishable from vinyl 100% of the time? I doubt it. So now the question is, how much more of the time would I find digital indistinguishable from vinyl if I had a better DAC and what is the price for that differential in performance? I honestly do not know that answer but I know I don't want to spend 100K to find out. Bottom line, I am extremely pleased with the Meitner TX2/DA2. It is a beautiful instrument, sounds great and gets out of the way of the music which is job #1. The day may come (and most certainly will) where a less expensive DAC will do a better job than the DA2. I don't think advancements in other areas such as amplification and speaker design are going to move as fast in terms of performance per dollar as will occur with DACs, so for those reasons, the Meitner gear is not a link I would consider targeting for improvement as the cost of doing so now is unattractive to me personally. As I said, I have other fish to fry so I will ride the TX2/DA2 into the sunset for now because its a sonic superstar that I don't think is easily bettered without spending really big bucks (and even that is an assumption but one I'm willing to make for now).
Marty

Marty....Great response, pretty much encapsulates my thoughts

Rather spend money in other areas also !

 

[Yuen A.]

Yuen
I should have said "perhaps" in the context of extended listening only, which I have not done. I have only heard them at shows. Their top DAC is obviously thought of highly by many folks including Mike Lavigne whose opinion I respect. In that regard, I'd welcome an extended listening experience in my system. However, the pragmatics of cost make it doubtful I will try to accomplish this since I have other more pressing audio needs at the moment. The Meitner gear is wholly satisfactory for me at this point and at a price I can handle. Let me expand upon that a bit.

I can play vinyl and instantly A/B a specific track with the identical digital file through the DA2 at identical volume levels using my VTL 7.5 III preamp. Going back and forth, it is often impossible to tell the two apart on certain material. Now that either means my vinyl sucks (Goldmund Studio/T3F/Benz LPS/ASR phono) or my digital is darned good. I don't think it's the former, but I could be wrong! Now, on other material, the vinyl is easy to distinguish as superior. The question to ask is how much more would a 100K DAC buy me? Would the MSB ever allow me to say it is indistinguishable from vinyl 100% of the time? I doubt it. So now the question is, how much more of the time would I find digital indistinguishable from vinyl if I had a better DAC and what is the price for that differential in performance? I honestly do not know that answer but I know I don't want to spend 100K to find out. Bottom line, I am extremely pleased with the Meitner TX2/DA2. It is a beautiful instrument, sounds great and gets out of the way of the music which is job #1. The day may come (and most certainly will) where a less expensive DAC will do a better job than the DA2. I don't think advancements in other areas such as amplification and speaker design are going to move as fast in terms of performance per dollar as will occur with DACs, so for those reasons, the Meitner gear is not a link I would consider targeting for improvement as the cost of doing so now is unattractive to me personally. As I said, I have other fish to fry so I will ride the TX2/DA2 into the sunset for now because its a sonic superstar that I don't think is easily bettered without spending really big bucks (and even that is an assumption but one I'm willing to make for now).
Marty

Hi marty

Thank you so much for the extended response. I value the insights you provide.

 

[Yuen A.]

Hi marty

I can certainly concur with you regarding the astonishing DA2. In fact, I had just completed listening to Rachmaninov Paganini Rhapsody by Lang Lang and Valery Gergiev, Orchestra of the Mariinsky Theatre (DG SACD) and I am getting goosebumps listening to it! Everything you want from a live performance is there - the visceral impact, the astonishing transient response, the explosive dynamics, the extreme clarity of timbre and texture, the sweetness of the various instruments, the clarity of the harmonics.

 

[Bar81]

The goal of vinyl sound is not universal. I certainly am not looking for my front end to sound like vinyl - if that's where I was now I certainly wouldn't be as content as I am. In fact, I'm not clear why anyone buys a digital front end with the goal of it sounding like vinyl. If you want the vinyl sound, buy vinyl.

 

[Yuen A.]

The goal of vinyl sound is not universal. I certainly am not looking for my front end to sound like vinyl - if that's where I was now I certainly wouldn't be as content as I am. In fact, I'm not clear why anyone buys a digital front end with the goal of it sounding like vinyl. If you want the vinyl sound, buy vinyl.

Hi Bar81

You are right. For those who listen to classical music (mostly), the best reference would be live unamplified orchestral music at concert halls.

 

[GSOphile]

Hi Bar81

You are right. For those who listen to classical music (mostly), the best reference would be live unamplified orchestral music at concert halls.

Couldn't agree more with both Bar81 and Yuen A.

 

[Yuen A.]

Hi Folks

1. When comparing the sound quality of a digital remaster thru the DA2 to that of the LP of the same recording, a factor we must consider is the age of the original analogue master. We would not expect the original analogue master to remain in 'perfect' condition after some 40 or 50 years of storage. Hence, we would not expect the digital remaster to be a 'perfect' copy of the original analogue master.

2. Our goal is not a sound indistinguishable from vinyl. Vinyl has its own coloration and associated 'distortions', esp. those made some 40 or 50 years ago (the equipment used back then were less than perfect! Consider also the used of equalizer, dynamic range compression, amplification of quiet sounds, etc.).

 

[Yuen A.]

I forgot to add that

3. Rather our goal is a sound that is identical to the sound of the microphone feeds.

 

[Yuen A.]

Hi

For those who think that digital recordings cannot "sounds more like the real thing than the analog one"; "the artificiality of digital playback—its persistent inability to capture fully the dynamic, harmonic, dimensional, and ambient liveliness of instruments" (Jonathan Valin, The Emperor's New Server, The absolute sound) should listen to this digital recording thru the DA2 in a reference sound system with very low noise floor: Kalevi Aho Solo X for French horn and Gyorgy Ligeti Trio for Violin, Horn and Piano (Brahms, Ligeti Horn Trios, BIS SACD-1859). I rest my case.

 

[marty]

Hi

For those who think that digital recordings cannot "sounds more like the real thing than the analog one"; "the artificiality of digital playback—its persistent inability to capture fully the dynamic, harmonic, dimensional, and ambient liveliness of instruments" (Jonathan Valin, The Emperor's New Server, The absolute sound) should listen to this digital recording thru the DA2 in a reference sound system with very low noise floor: Kalevi Aho Solo X for French horn and Gyorgy Ligeti Trio for Violin, Horn and Piano (Brahms, Ligeti Horn Trios, BIS SACD-1859). I rest my case.

Yuen
I appreciate the recommendation.
is this the SACD you mentioned?
http://bis.se/performers/neunecker-marie-luise/brahms-ligeti-horn-trios

If so, it's interesting that it is offered on Amazon as a CD for $45.01 but it is offered directly from BIS as SACD for 15 Eu.
I look forward to receiving the disc from BIS.
Marty

 

[Yuen A.]

Yuen
I appreciate the recommendation.
is this the SACD you mentioned?
http://bis.se/performers/neunecker-marie-luise/brahms-ligeti-horn-trios

If so, it's interesting that it is offered on Amazon as a CD for $45.01 but it is offered directly from BIS as SACD for 15 Eu.
I look forward to receiving the disc from BIS.
Marty

Yes. Great!