Hi fi junk vs great art and musical instruments

[Lee]

Not. You can convincingly argue the opposite. Market alienation from potential buyers, "value" pricing by manufacturers that have little or nothing to do with actual costs, companies that may have one big time market success and then go into the abyss leaving purchasers on the cliff not to mention the requisite servicing difficulties, etc.

I suspect that you are one "industry" that has profited as well as manufacturers that charge "uber" prices because of folks that will buy and sustain this "greed is good" marketing strategy.

With all due respect, I am somewhat surprised by your post but, given your magazines financial interests, I reckon I should not be.

I often find that the people that complain most about the prices in high end audio are not typically the actual customers for the manufacturers.

In any event, you can't extrapolate your next point to the media firms because the situation there is different. Also, I am no longer CEO of Nextscreen. Specifically, TAS and Stereophile are not seeing commensurate increases in ad spend by these same companies.

 

[Lee]

I'm not sure how good it is for the industry. If there is demand for $1m turntables and someone is willing to make one, then that is capitalist economics at work and no one is harmed.

Some companies do ultra-type products as research and PR exercises and it can drip down into affordable products. The modern classic is the Rega Naiad, years of materials research, they made 300 and sold them for £30,000 each, not a profitable exercise. The first derivative was the P10 for £4,000 and now the Naia for £10,000, both brilliant. I was sorely tempted to buy a Naia, BUT ....

I had a big ugly black turntable and wanted one that was made from the same veneer as the bookcases in my music room. To me that's luxury, entirely unnecessary expenditure that has nothing to do with sound quality, but gives me lots of pleasure.

It was done here in the UK, at the level as an Artisan Fidelity Statement level machine. Would you call those a waste of money? I have no idea what an AF Garrard 301 Statement costs, but if I was in the USA and had the money I wouldn't think twice about buying one.

I joined this forum to get advice on this project, I bought most of the components from the same supplier as a member here, it turned out to be a lot easier than expected.

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I know of several manufacturers who use flagship sales to grow and hire more people. I know of specific instances of how technology developed for the flagship has trickled down into far more affordable products. I know of two loudspeaker makers where cash flow from flagship products has led to better tooling and that has led to more stable cash flows.

It's important to keep in mind that high end audio is a very tiny industry full of mostly owner/operator firms under $5-7 million in revenue. Getting to stable cash flow is very critical to stay in business.

I also reiterate that it's hard to criticize a maker of $X00,000 speakers without knowledge of parts costs, labor costs, warranty and inventory costs, and overhead costs.

Many of us here on WBF grew up in an era where $10K was a mind-blowing amount to spend on a pair of speakers. But that was a time before expensive drivers, expensive cabinets, and an ultra-luxury segment existed.

 

[Lee]

If i wanna buy "luxury " i can buy a high performance car .
Much better machining / technics / paint job / carbon exterior plus it actually gets you somewhere when you turn the key .
But who am i , i never read a magazine for the past 10-15 years

I am not sure this is true. Wilson paint booths are on par with Porsche for instance. They are actually high quality automotive paint booths. The carbon fiber tech at Magico is very high level. Falcon Acoustics new flagship speaker uses F1 technology from F1 builders. Parts machining for Magico and Wilson is done on Haas or similar level CNC machines. The Haas machines are on premises at the Magico factory.

 

[Lee]

I'm not sure how good it is for the industry. If there is demand for $1m turntables and someone is willing to make one, then that is capitalist economics at work and no one is harmed.

Some companies do ultra-type products as research and PR exercises and it can drip down into affordable products. The modern classic is the Rega Naiad, years of materials research, they made 300 and sold them for £30,000 each, not a profitable exercise. The first derivative was the P10 for £4,000 and now the Naia for £10,000, both brilliant. I was sorely tempted to buy a Naia, BUT ....

I had a big ugly black turntable and wanted one that was made from the same veneer as the bookcases in my music room. To me that's luxury, entirely unnecessary expenditure that has nothing to do with sound quality, but gives me lots of pleasure.

It was done here in the UK, at the level as an Artisan Fidelity Statement level machine. Would you call those a waste of money? I have no idea what an AF Garrard 301 Statement costs, but if I was in the USA and had the money I wouldn't think twice about buying one.

I joined this forum to get advice on this project, I bought most of the components from the same supplier as a member here, it turned out to be a lot easier than expected.

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Just wanted to mention that the bookshelves and turntable are beautiful. I love fine woodworking. I had all my major furniture made with solid walnut using Japanese joinery techniques. It will outlast me!

 

[ssfas]

Not. In fact, you can convincingly argue the opposite. Market alienation from potential buyers ( I am very skeptical regarding trickle down technology and consumer purchase benefits), "value" pricing by manufacturers that have little or nothing to do with actual costs, companies that may have one big time market success and then go into the abyss leaving purchasers on the cliff not to mention the requisite servicing difficulties, etc.

I suspect that you are one "industry" that has profited as well as manufacturers that charge "uber" prices because of folks that will buy and sustain this "greed is good" marketing strategy.

With all due respect, I am somewhat surprised by your post but, given your magazine's financial interests, I reckon I should not be. TAS is clearly part of the hi end audio machine.

Both my phono stages and my streamer are trickle-down products.

I use a Luxman L-509X. The current model L-509Z costs $6,500 in Japan. It costs $12,500 in the USA and more in the UK. It has trickle through technology, refined over numerous iterations, manufactured in large numbers, totally reliable. Similar products from the likes of Soulution and Gryphon are three times the price because they are made in low numbers with more promotion required, so the R&D, design and manufacture costs per unit are way higher. Most people understand the economics of small batch or bespoke production and that the products will be a lot more expensive. They are OK with that.

 

[thedudeabides]

Lee, thanks for your clarifications / responses. I fully understand your comments but they are predictable / defensible from TAS's perspective. From a previous high end audio product consumer, I personally don't find them convincing. Hopefully we can agree to respectfully disagree. Best.

 

[Lee]

Lee, thanks for your clarifications / responses. I fully understand your comments but they are predictable / defensible from TAS's perspective. From a previous high end audio product consumer, I personally don't find them convincing. Hopefully we can agree to respectfully disagree. Best.

Fair enough. I am doing my best here to share honest opinions based on my own personal experience and knowledge.

 

[Lee]

Both my phono stages and my streamer are trickle-down products.

I use a Luxman L-509X. The current model L-509Z costs $6,500 in Japan. It costs $12,500 in the USA and more in the UK. It has trickle through technology, refined over numerous iterations, manufactured in large numbers, totally reliable. Similar products from the likes of Soulution and Gryphon are three times the price because they are made in low numbers with more promotion required, so the R&D, design and manufacture costs per unit are way higher. Most people understand the economics of small batch or bespoke production and that the products will be a lot more expensive. They are OK with that.

That's a good point. Economies of scale is a real factor here.

 

[PeterA]

I'm not sure how good it is for the industry. If there is demand for $1m turntables and someone is willing to make one, then that is capitalist economics at work and no one is harmed.

Not only is no one harmed, but sometimes real knowledge is gained and people benefit. The original American Sound AS 1000 turntable was basically a bespoke effort. A Hong Kong dealer in about 1970 hired a guy to design it because he had a few clients whom he thought would like it. It was built in a Japanese shipyard because they had the materials and tooling. I have no idea what the original cost was or how many were made, but it was an extremely small production. I know of three samples, all bought by David Karmeli years ago. One was used by Vladimir Lamm as he developed his electronics. I had that very table in my system for a month. It is a brilliant design and all those who have directly compared it to the EMT 927, the Goldmund Reference, the Thorens reference, and the big Micro Seiki SZ1 and SX8000II, The TechDAS AF1 preferred the AS1000.

It is a pure expression of form follows function and arguably one of the best tables ever made. Many people have tried to copy it or improve it, mostly in Asia. I have seen some of these one-off efforts.

I don’t know how good it is for the industry. In this case, the turntable was basically outside of the industry, not a part of it, just available for a lucky few to enjoy. These are expressions of the designer focused on achieving a very specific goal. In the best cases, they can reveal what is possible, and in that sense, for those who have heard them, that knowledge and experience can move the industry forward.

 

[ssfas]

Just wanted to mention that the bookshelves and turntable are beautiful. I love fine woodworking. I had all my major furniture made with solid walnut using Japanese joinery techniques. It will outlast me!

We love woodworking. All our furniture, kitchen and bedroom suites are bespoke hand made, most by the same guy over the last 25 years.

I mentioned I have several drip-down products. When Devialet designed the Devialet Premier, it was based on mobile phone technology, parts placed at 5,000/minute, 100% reliable. The problem was that the parts come on long tapes and have to be bought in minimum orders of 100,000+. One reason for designing the Phantom and Reactor products was to get much higher volume production so that they could get the parts for the lower volume Expert range at sensible prices. Just another weird bit of hifi economics.

There are many fine woodworkers, but the real problem is marketing and getting people to buy the stuff. I've come across plenty who've given up because they just can't make a living. In the West a lot of crafts are not recognised as much as they are in Asia, where they are preferred to representational art. We have a few pieces by a young man who is getting places, he finds fallen trees and makes things from them, usually vessels of one sort or another.



My house guy has many clients in the USA, I saw this in his workshop a few weeks ago, and on Instagram, a client obviously wanted an alligator swimming across his breakfast table. This is quite modest compared to some of the things I've seen. I much prefer to spend money on this kind of thing than hifi. As you say, it will still be around long after we're dead and buried.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I often find that the people that complain most about the prices in high end audio are not typically the actual customers for the manufacturers.

In any event, you can't extrapolate your next point to the media firms because the situation there is different. Also, I am no longer CEO of Nextscreen. Specifically, TAS and Stereophile are not seeing commensurate increases in ad spend by these same companies.

They are struck by the pains of envy. Me personally I would rather spend my money on motorcycles and airplanes than so overpriced piece of electronics. I can fix my aircraft and motorcycles.

 

[thedudeabides]

Fair enough. I am doing my best here to share honest opinions based on my own personal experience and knowledge.

I am confident that this is true. Hopefully, you did not interpret anything I said that would indicate otherwise. As in audio, we all have our own perspectives and experiences that we use to form personal opinions. Best. Gordon