Review: Grand Prix Audio • Monaco 2.0 Turntable

[morricab]

Adding more opinions from manufactures who endorse and use coreless motors over or picking isolated reviewer opinions does not add nothing to this issue ... IMHO there are so many variables in turntable design and so many varieties that generalizations are not possible, and even then they are due to preferences. We have to look at the whole package before taking a decision.

Are you telling us we should not own, for example, a Micro Seiki 8000 because the motor is not coreless?

BTW, I also own a few top coreless cassette decks- two Nakamichi CR7 and one Revox B215 - a few weeks ago I have been cleaning, checking and listening to them, as I am considering reducing the collection. Sorry, but no comparison is possible with the ultra heavy cored synchronous motor Studer A80 ... But yes, they are really enjoyable!

So, seeing a building consensus among expert engineers adds nothing to the issue? It may not be definitive but it says something because, you know those motors are not cheap and business pushes always for saving money in production. Why use a $1000+ motor when a $50 motor works just as well and it can all be controlled by software?? Technics didn't go coreless now because it saves money...they could have just built the same machine as in the past and put new clothes on it but they instead put in a coreless motor that requires also new software to control. Why? Sales Gimmick? I doubt it. They probably took a clean slate approach and decided that if they were going to do DD then this was the best approach. Business culture can sometimes blind a company and they fall behind their competitors in technology. I think this happened to Technics in the past and why they didn't move to a coreless deisgn back then.

BTW, the vaunted EMTs are not so great as DDs. I haven't heard the idlers but the DDs, while having that typical high torque drive and punch, lack refinement and subtlety.


I am not telling you anything whatsoever about what you should or should not own...however, it is quite possible that replacing a 1970s micro cored motor (if in fact they are cored motors) with a brinkmann sinus stands a good chance of further improving the sound. Old micros sound good as do Brinkmann BDs. I think; however, a Brinkmann BD with their new Sinus drive will sound significantly better (haven't heard one yet). I can tell you for a fact though that the Brinkmann Bardo is a very good sounding DD.

I have heard plenty of big Studer decks (I even live within 1Km of the old Studer company) as they are often seen here in Switzerland. Maybe it is better, I haven't heard them side-by-side...you have a Studer A80?

Mainly though we have compared to other well regarded cassette decks that are not coreless and the coreless ones sound smoother and more natural...just like what I have heard with DDs.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree about the EMT DDs. Quite disappointing. Shakti's Microseiki DD (1500 euro with the arm, iirc) was relatively quite good for the price. Brinkmann BDs are excellent, I have heard both with Pabst and Sinus motor, and though have never compared the two motors, know people who did and they consider the Sinus to be an improvement. It is also my current top choice for a TT for myself, if one with two arms comes along at a great price in a year or two. Never heard the Bardo.

 

[morricab]

I agree about the EMT DDs. Quite disappointing. Shakti's Microseiki DD (1500 euro with the arm, iirc) was relatively quite good for the price. Brinkmann BDs are excellent, I have heard both with Pabst and Sinus motor, and though have never compared the two motors, know people who did and they consider the Sinus to be an improvement. It is also my current top choice for a TT for myself, if one with two arms comes along at a great price in a year or two. Never heard the Bardo.

Do you know which model Micro DD? Bardo and Oasis (same motor) are both quite nice. I would like to hear the BD with a Sinus. I find it interesting as well that the mighty Caliburn was BD but also used a coreless motor...Mark Dohemnann told me that the motor and controller cost them $8K alone!

 

[bonzo75]

Do you know which model Micro DD? Bardo and Oasis (same motor) are both quite nice. I would like to hear the BD with a Sinus. I find it interesting as well that the mighty Caliburn was BD but also used a coreless motor...Mark Dohemnann told me that the motor and controller cost them $8K alone!

Miicro Seiki direct drive DQX 1000 with the standard MA500 arm and an Ortofon 2M Bronze cart http://zero-distortion.org/micro_seiki_8000_mkii_koetsu_colibri_thoress_airtight/

 

[morricab]

Miicro Seiki direct drive DQX 1000 with the standard MA500 arm and an Ortofon 2M Bronze cart http://zero-distortion.org/micro_seiki_8000_mkii_koetsu_colibri_thoress_airtight/

Seems the DQX-1000 uses a JVC motor...prior to their big switch to coreless. Try to hear a TT with a coreless JVC motor and bi-directional servo if you can...

 

[microstrip]

So, seeing a building consensus among expert engineers adds nothing to the issue? It may not be definitive but it says something because, you know those motors are not cheap and business pushes always for saving money in production. Why use a $1000+ motor when a $50 motor works just as well and it can all be controlled by software?? Technics didn't go coreless now because it saves money...they could have just built the same machine as in the past and put new clothes on it but they instead put in a coreless motor that requires also new software to control. Why? Sales Gimmick? I doubt it. They probably took a clean slate approach and decided that if they were going to do DD then this was the best approach. Business culture can sometimes blind a company and they fall behind their competitors in technology. I think this happened to Technics in the past and why they didn't move to a coreless deisgn back then.

BTW, the vaunted EMTs are not so great as DDs. I haven't heard the idlers but the DDs, while having that typical high torque drive and punch, lack refinement and subtlety.

Coreless saves a lot of money - but needs adequate control. Coreless is not new - it has been even used in cheap motors, such as the old diskette drive motors since long. There are many other factors associated to each type of motor than we are not addressing - torque magnitude, structural changes, vibration behavior of the platter and motor that affect subjective sound quality and are not measurable.
One of the reasons of the boom of coreless is the use of fast cheap digital controllers.

I am not telling you anything whatsoever about what you should or should not own...however, it is quite possible that replacing a 1970s micro cored motor (if in fact they are cored motors) with a brinkmann sinus stands a good chance of further improving the sound. Old micros sound good as do Brinkmann BDs. I think; however, a Brinkmann BD with their new Sinus drive will sound significantly better (haven't heard one yet). I can tell you for a fact though that the Brinkmann Bardo is a very good sounding DD.

I have heard plenty of big Studer decks (I even live within 1Km of the old Studer company) as they are often seen here in Switzerland. Maybe it is better, I haven't heard them side-by-side...you have a Studer A80?

Mainly though we have compared to other well regarded cassette decks that are not coreless and the coreless ones sound smoother and more natural...just like what I have heard with DDs.

Brinkmann new motor adds a large rotating mass of 500 grams, achieved by using a nickel-plated steel motor body, works likes a flywheel. (quoting their literature) How much of improvement is due to the flywheel effect?

And yes, I have two Studer A80's (and one extra for spares...) How else could I say they sound very different?

 

[XV-1]

Well I own what are considered by some the best cored and coreless examples of the vintage Japanese DD technology.

Technics SL1000mk3 / SP10 mk3 and Pioneer Exclusive P3. Impossible to really compare the two as the plinths and tonearms cannot be interchanged. I cannot hear any cogging of anything from the SP10mk3 that Morricab talks about.

I will say the SP10mk3 does sound better after the Fidelis Analog replacement for the Technics MN6042 Pitch Synthesizer IC.

Both tables are extremely stable, sound pitch perfect and have that bass drive and control that only DD's seem to be able to do.

 

[bonzo75]

What are you supposed to hear when you hear cogging?

 

[morricab]

Coreless saves a lot of money - but needs adequate control. Coreless is not new - it has been even used in cheap motors, such as the old diskette drive motors since long. There are many other factors associated to each type of motor than we are not addressing - torque magnitude, structural changes, vibration behavior of the platter and motor that affect subjective sound quality and are not measurable.
One of the reasons of the boom of coreless is the use of fast cheap digital controllers.



Brinkmann new motor adds a large rotating mass of 500 grams, achieved by using a nickel-plated steel motor body, works likes a flywheel. (quoting their literature) How much of improvement is due to the flywheel effect?

And yes, I have two Studer A80's (and one extra for spares...) How else could I say they sound very different?

The motors are not cheap...not good ones anyway...some of the most expensive out there...I have one that cost me well over $1K. All those details, while important for optimizing a given architecture do not eliminate inherent traits...only reduce the effects from them. A totally smooth motor makes very little vibration...this is why rumble figures for the Yamaha GT-2000 are -85db and Kenwood L07-D -94db!

You are wrong, the "boom" in coreless was in the late 70s and early 80s when digital controllers as such didn't even exist!! It was not cheap to implement a good controller at that time (at least the first time it was developed...it gets subsequently cheaper the more you use it...although the one in the TT101 was never simple or cheap). There is a rediscovery of that technology going on in the last few years but there was about a 30 year drought in its use in new TTs.

And so what about Brinkmann's use of a heavy body?? Nearly everyone uses a heavy platter as well...inertia never hurts...

as to the Studer, you could easily have a friend with one and you brought your cassette deck to his place...one of many possibilities...thus my question.

 

[morricab]

Well I own what are considered by some the best cored and coreless examples of the vintage Japanese DD technology.

Technics SL1000mk3 / SP10 mk3 and Pioneer Exclusive P3. Impossible to really compare the two as the plinths and tonearms cannot be interchanged. I cannot hear any cogging of anything from the SP10mk3 that Morricab talks about.

I will say the SP10mk3 does sound better after the Fidelis Analog replacement for the Technics MN6042 Pitch Synthesizer IC.

Both tables are extremely stable, sound pitch perfect and have that bass drive and control that only DD's seem to be able to do.

Both of those tables have cored motors. Pioneer didn't go to coreless until PL70 series II (the whole series II went coreless).

 

[XV-1]

Both of those tables have cored motors. Pioneer didn't go to coreless until PL70 series II (the whole series II went coreless).

Might be definations here. Pioneer P3 is a linear motor. The scheme which controls DD motor of the linear torque scheme of a slotless and a coreless structure by Quartz PLL is adopted as a phone motor and a bearing structure.
Pioneer says it was coreless because it is ironless and therefore there is no possibility of saturation-induced cogging.
P3 and 3A also had rumble measure of 95db,. The best measure of any Japanese DD motor. The Japanese changed their DIN B measurement methodology.

Can be seen as smoke and mirrors. The proof is in the listening and SP10mk3 and P3 are superb sounding DD tables.

 

[microstrip]

What are you supposed to hear when you hear cogging?

We should separate two effects : torque ripple and feedback corrections. What do we want to address?

 

[microstrip]

The motors are not cheap...not good ones anyway...some of the most expensive out there...I have one that cost me well over $1K. All those details, while important for optimizing a given architecture do not eliminate inherent traits...only reduce the effects from them. A totally smooth motor makes very little vibration...this is why rumble figures for the Yamaha GT-2000 are -85db and Kenwood L07-D -94db!

The numbers war again ... Should we use it also in electronics?

You are wrong, the "boom" in coreless was in the late 70s and early 80s when digital controllers as such didn't even exist!! It was not cheap to implement a good controller at that time (at least the first time it was developed...it gets subsequently cheaper the more you use it...although the one in the TT101 was never simple or cheap). There is a rediscovery of that technology going on in the last few years but there was about a 30 year drought in its use in new TTs.

I was not addressing turntables or precise dates, just DC motors in general. There is life outside the audio community.

And so what about Brinkmann's use of a heavy body?? Nearly everyone uses a heavy platter as well...inertia never hurts...

Surely it improves performance. Just pointed it to say it is impossible to conclude anything with assurance by comparison with previous motor.

Again, my main point is that generalization to subjective sound quality based on motor type is too personnel and misleading.

 

[bonzo75]

We should separate two effects : torque ripple and feedback corrections. What do we want to address?

Both. Can you hear a particular character due to either?

 

[morricab]

The numbers war again ... Should we use it also in electronics?



I was not addressing turntables or precise dates, just DC motors in general. There is life outside the audio community.



Surely it improves performance. Just pointed it to say it is impossible to conclude anything with assurance by comparison with previous motor.

Again, my main point is that generalization to subjective sound quality based on motor type is too personnel and misleading.

"The numbers war again ... Should we use it also in electronics? "
I just mentioned noise, not speed accuracy.

"I was not addressing turntables or precise dates, just DC motors in general. There is life outside the audio community. "

That's funny because I could have sworn that we are on an audio forum talking primarily about TT drive systems...is it possible you are crossthreading your forums??? Why would you go off on a tangent and not even state explicitly that you went off on that tangent??

It is clear that the problem with going coreless was always having a really good control system (whatever that means in the context of use) because they are not speed stable with changing load. Only the big budget Japanese firms had the money and resources to produce such products 30+ years ago and now it has gotten easier (in theory at least).

"Surely it improves performance. Just pointed it to say it is impossible to conclude anything with assurance by comparison with previous motor."

Well all I said is that I am sure it improves performance...I guess we are in agreement on that point at least.

"Again, my main point is that generalization to subjective sound quality based on motor type is too personnel and misleading"

Again, once you have heard a number of configurations of each type, certain common characteristics stand out that can be referred back to a certain drive system. Each system has a character and some are more musically consonnant than others.

 

[KeithR]

Both. Can you hear a particular character due to either?

I've always wanted to know the answer to this question as well.

 

[microstrip]

"The numbers war again ... Should we use it also in electronics? "
I just mentioned noise, not speed accuracy.

"I was not addressing turntables or precise dates, just DC motors in general. There is life outside the audio community. "

That's funny because I could have sworn that we are on an audio forum talking primarily about TT drive systems...is it possible you are crossthreading your forums??? Why would you go off on a tangent and not even state explicitly that you went off on that tangent??

It is clear that the problem with going coreless was always having a really good control system (whatever that means in the context of use) because they are not speed stable with changing load. Only the big budget Japanese firms had the money and resources to produce such products 30+ years ago and now it has gotten easier (in theory at least).

"Surely it improves performance. Just pointed it to say it is impossible to conclude anything with assurance by comparison with previous motor."

Well all I said is that I am sure it improves performance...I guess we are in agreement on that point at least.

"Again, my main point is that generalization to subjective sound quality based on motor type is too personnel and misleading"

Again, once you have heard a number of configurations of each type, certain common characteristics stand out that can be referred back to a certain drive system. Each system has a character and some are more musically consonnant than others.

Please quote and answer according to WBF standard when posting and I will be happy to debate.

 

[microstrip]

Both. Can you hear a particular character due to either?

I have not direct experience enough to answer. But we can always learn from from more experienced people. If it is not possible to separate them, then we have a problem ...

 

[morricab]

Might be definations here. Pioneer P3 is a linear motor. The scheme which controls DD motor of the linear torque scheme of a slotless and a coreless structure by Quartz PLL is adopted as a phone motor and a bearing structure.
Pioneer says it was coreless because it is ironless and therefore there is no possibility of saturation-induced cogging.
P3 and 3A also had rumble measure of 95db,. The best measure of any Japanese DD motor. The Japanese changed their DIN B measurement methodology.

Can be seen as smoke and mirrors. The proof is in the listening and SP10mk3 and P3 are superb sounding DD tables.

Just going by what I have read and from the schematic drawings (I haven't found any actual photos yet) of the motor, which from the drawings doesn't look like a coreless pancake motor (there are other types of coreless though). Also, it is interesting that for the later TTs the word "coreless" is specifically used and pictures I have found of those motors are indeed coreless designs. With the P3 the word "linear" is used, whatever this happens to mean, although there is a suggestion of no cogging, which would imply coreless. Personally, I could not live with what I have heard from the SP10Mk2 (I haven't heard the Mk3).

 

[PeterA]

Just going by what I have read and from the schematic drawings (I haven't found any actual photos yet) of the motor, which from the drawings doesn't look like a coreless pancake motor (there are other types of coreless though). Also, it is interesting that for the later TTs the word "coreless" is specifically used and pictures I have found of those motors are indeed coreless designs. With the P3 the word "linear" is used, whatever this happens to mean, although there is a suggestion of no cogging, which would imply coreless. Personally, I could not live with what I have heard from the SP10Mk2 (I haven't heard the Mk3).

Could you describe the "sound" of cogging and what specifically you identified as the sound from the Mk2 that you did not like? I have heard an SP10MK2 only once in an unfamiliar system which had other issues, so I could not sort out the sound of the Mk2. I have also directly compared a restored Mk3 in my system to my SME30/12 using the same, though not identical samples of the SME V-12 arms and AirTight Supreme cartridges. The Mk3 owner and I both preferred the SME table and something sounded "not right" about the Mk3, but we could not figure out what or why, only that it sounded unnatural and mechanical. It was in a lovely custom Panzerholtz plinth.