Trinity DAC

[Jazzhead]

Hi Jazzhead
I have heard the upgrade is not available anymore. Do you know if it is the case ?

Hi Chrk , where from did you hear this ? Have not heard anything myself . The last I know it was 3000 euros , you have to send the DAC back to Dietmar , for the mod . Do let us know if you learn otherwise . Cheers

 

[Chrk]

It was on a different system than mine and funnily enough is quite similar to yours (full Vitus masterpiece electronics and Coltrane supreme, but with an Aurender). The two DACs are surely very different (mine hasn't been upgraded either). The MSB Select is more detailed and has a both sharper and wider soundstage. The Trinity sonic image was more forward and centered, less spacious but with an unbeatable tone and "texture"(?), which most would call "more analogue". We both have a strong phono system and it was striking how closer to our phono sound the trinity was compared to the MSB. It is also noticeable how the format of the audio file impacts the sound experience with the Trinity when it does not so much with the MSB (I believe the 24/176&192 are far better than lower Rez on the trinity, but it's maybe a placebo effect, even if it seems the way the trinity works would confirm this). In a way the Trinity is more enjoyable for small bands/chamber music and voices while the MSB would be more interesting on large ensemble like symphonic and philharmonic orchestra. Of course this is totally subjective...

 

[Chrk]

Hi Jazzhead
Thank you for your answer. I asked the person who imported the Trinity for me (UK). I send a message to Dietmar and had no answer yet. Help would be greatly appreciated as I would really like to get the upgrade done asap.

 

[Audiocrack]

I have my Trinity combo (dac plus server) for sale. So if anyone is interested, please PM me.

 

[Legolas]

Please do. The W20 sounds much better. The old S10 isn't any better than a regular computer when using it via its USB out.

In my experience, the USB signal quality makes a big difference with this DAC.

Have you tried an AOIP connection? I gave up on USB as couldn't get it to sounds smooth enough for my tastes.

 

[Elberoth]

AOIP is that optical interface Dietmar developed ? Does it sound better than USB ?

 

[Legolas]

AOIP is that optical interface Dietmar developed ? Does it sound better than USB ?

I am referring to Rednet AOIP, not a specific Trinity product. I became aware of the quality of Ethernet with the CH Precision C1 which sounds better on AOIP than USB. I spent so much trying to fix the USB chain after dropping a CDP out of my system.

YMMV and it can be reflected by the level of re-clocking and chips in the USB receiver in the DAC I am told. Issue with Dante and Rednet is it is limited (by Dante) at 192K, though that may change. It doesn't bother me as I don't upsample and stay with 44.1 up to 96K.

 

[wisnon]

I think the Dartzeel "Danalog" ethernet Dac is also AOIP. It costs about $15K and is also a 200wpc Integrated amp. It does DSD up to 128. Not sure what the PCM limit is, but likely 384khz.

 

[asiufy]

darTZeel is purely UPNP, a standard protocol used by 99.9% of the streamers out there.
So, if by "AOIP" (Audo over IP?) you mean UPNP, yes, that's what the CH Precision uses for its Ethernet connection as well. Oh, and in most cases, that input will sound better than USB + an external streamer.

 

[Chrk]

Hi Chrk , where from did you hear this ? Have not heard anything myself . The last I know it was 3000 euros , you have to send the DAC back to Dietmar , for the mod . Do let us know if you learn otherwise . Cheers

The upgrade is available but the price for me is 6000 EUR. Dietmar certified that 3000EUR was never possible. Anyway, high end audio work mysterious ways

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Oh, and in most cases, that input will sound better than USB + an external streamer.

What is most cases and why would that be the case? I would agree that it much more convenient since you don't have to deal with drivers and connectivity issues of USB, but sound wise I would like to hear your justification for this.

 

[asiufy]

First, my opinion is based on experimentation, not technical/theoretical reasons. I've listened extensively to a number of DACs with both connections, and the Ethernet/UPNP is generally better, and not by a small margin, in most of the cases. Even products like the Linn Klimax, which is a DAC with a built-in streamer (and no USB) probably derive most of its performance advantage from the fact that it's Ethernet only.

If I had to guess the reason(s), it's because Ethernet is a more reliable way of carrying data than USB, with proper package correction/checksum on both ends. And by eliminating a link in the chain, by having the streamer sit right next to the DAC, there's one less step for the digital signal to go through - outboard the streamer, and you don't run the risk of harming the digital signal.

It's well known that USB cards and adapters have a "sound", and a lot of manufacturers just buy some OEM part and stick it in there, so by eliminating that, you're one step closer to the true sound of your DAC.

Of course, implementation still trumps all, so a badly implemented streaming board/card might not sound as good as a properly isolated USB + a top flight server like the SGM.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

First, my opinion is based on experimentation, not technical/theoretical reasons. I've listened extensively to a number of DACs with both connections, and the Ethernet/UPNP is generally better, and not by a small margin, in most of the cases. Even products like the Linn Klimax, which is a DAC with a built-in streamer (and no USB) probably derive most of its performance advantage from the fact that it's Ethernet only.

If I had to guess the reason(s), it's because Ethernet is a more reliable way of carrying data than USB, with proper package correction/checksum on both ends. And by eliminating a link in the chain, by having the streamer sit right next to the DAC, there's one less step for the digital signal to go through - outboard the streamer, and you don't run the risk of harming the digital signal.

It's well known that USB cards and adapters have a "sound", and a lot of manufacturers just buy some OEM part and stick it in there, so by eliminating that, you're one step closer to the true sound of your DAC.

Of course, implementation still trumps all, so a badly implemented streaming board/card might not sound as good as a properly isolated USB + a top flight server like the SGM.

Gotcha. I too prefer the IP based solution as a former Linn dealer as it makes setup and implementation a lot easier, but sound quality wise was not aware anything that supported them being better quality than the USB counterparts.

 

[Legolas]

Gotcha. I too prefer the IP based solution as a former Linn dealer as it makes setup and implementation a lot easier, but sound quality wise was not aware anything that supported them being better quality than the USB counterparts.

My situation may not be typical as I use an old school NOS R-2R DAC with no USB input. BUT I have been through the 'ringer' IMO with various external USB convertors, decrapifieres inc OffRamp 5, M2 Tech full Stack inc Battery supply and ex Clock and various cables inc TotalDAC USB and linear power supplies for the various systems. It was ok but I was always aware of a haze, a digital layer to the sound, a thinness and an unnatural 'hifi' slant to the music. I had beaten my original CEC CDP, but still not as good as a demo unit Audio Note transport. Until I dropped USB and went AOIP with the Rednet and Dante. Now we are talking, right away a liquid, smooth and full sound, better layering, more 3D and NO digital glaze or hint it was fed by a computer. Very happy indeed.

I have no exact theory why this is, but I guess isolation, no dirty line (USB power), much better latency. Dante is also designed for audio transmission, unlike the USB protocol which I always suspected was a 'connection for all' type of design. Quite possibly the amount of improvement will vary on the server or PC used as many USB buses are shared so further dirties the line.

Many DACs I found have the internal Amanero board which is good, but retails as OEM for about 79 USD, quite possibly there are better ones? The C1 board is 5K!! Insanely overpriced IMO. But as I said I got fed up with buying USB fixers and move on.

Anyway, I would say give Rednet a try f you don't use DSD or upsample above 192K. Mine cost 899 USD for the Rednet 3 inc software.

 

[asiufy]

Hi,

Seems to me we're comparing apples and oranges. The Rednet is a pro-audio product, designed for studios to stream audio from one location to another. In the end, that product is still interfacing with your DAC via an external connection, in your case, I assume it's SPDIF or AES.
UPNP (and its extension, OpenHome) are designed for home audio/video, and as such, are much more customer-friendly, with a variety of servers and remote control apps. The Ethernet/streamer module doesn't go through an external interface, but instead is directly connected, via an internal bus, to the DAC. That's a benefit to this approach right there...
Unless the audio industry as a whole adopts that Dante standard, it's highly unlikely that product has a future in home audio. Roon has a much better chance. PS Audio already has Roon-ready Ethernet modules, dCS also has their Network box, and MSB is coming out with their upgraded modules within a few months.

 

[Legolas]

I think there i room for both TBH. UPNP tends to be over wifi and that can cause issues I won't go into here.

For a really clean Mac / PC over Ethernet to DAC IMO the Dante protocol is a good route. It has fabulous sound quality. It is a one path system, not so universal as Roon over UPNP true. You can however run 16 devices over the Rednet and the latency is excellent.

I don't need Roon as don't have multiple devices storing or playing music, only a Mac and ext Firewire drive and streaming MQA and Tidal.

 

[asiufy]

astrostar,

There are several misconceptions in your post.
UPNP has nothing to do with Wi-Fi. It's a protocol that runs over TCP/IP, so it'll use whatever physical TCP/IP network you have, wired or wireless.
Then, you're not listening to Dante, you're listening to an Ethernet to SPDIF/AES converter, that happens to use their own thing to talk between devices on its proprietary network. That's what you like, while you previously didn't like the USB to SPDIF/AES converters you tried. That's fine, as far as I know, but you gotta compare apples to apples, as Rednet is not "really clean", as it still goes through an external interface, same as the USB approach is not "really clean"...
You said it yourself that you don't have multiple devices, yet you claim the benefit of Dante is supporting 16 devices... ? And Roon does support a number of devices on the network, one server, many endpoints, and many remotes. And UPNP/OpenHome as well, with multiple servers as well.

 

[Legolas]

astrostar,

There are several misconceptions in your post.
UPNP has nothing to do with Wi-Fi. It's a protocol that runs over TCP/IP, so it'll use whatever physical TCP/IP network you have, wired or wireless.
Then, you're not listening to Dante, you're listening to an Ethernet to SPDIF/AES converter, that happens to use their own thing to talk between devices on its proprietary network. That's what you like, while you previously didn't like the USB to SPDIF/AES converters you tried. That's fine, as far as I know, but you gotta compare apples to apples, as Rednet is not "really clean", as it still goes through an external interface, same as the USB approach is not "really clean"...
You said it yourself that you don't have multiple devices, yet you claim the benefit of Dante is supporting 16 devices... ? And Roon does support a number of devices on the network, one server, many endpoints, and many remotes. And UPNP/OpenHome as well, with multiple servers as well.

Fare enough. How does a typical UPNP then connect to a DAC? It is resorts to USB it won't interest me as going back to where I left. Basically any AOIP or USB device connection wether external or internal is going to covert the digital stream to something the DAC understands. My post is offering another option to try to avoid USB, that is all. Not saying Roon or UPNP is inferior, just I prefer the sound I am getting with Dante. Like I said, Dante was designed for pro audio, so bit different to USB.

 

[sbo6]

Hi,

Seems to me we're comparing apples and oranges. The Rednet is a pro-audio product, designed for studios to stream audio from one location to another. In the end, that product is still interfacing with your DAC via an external connection, in your case, I assume it's SPDIF or AES.
UPNP (and its extension, OpenHome) are designed for home audio/video, and as such, are much more customer-friendly, with a variety of servers and remote control apps. The Ethernet/streamer module doesn't go through an external interface, but instead is directly connected, via an internal bus, to the DAC. That's a benefit to this approach right there...
Unless the audio industry as a whole adopts that Dante standard, it's highly unlikely that product has a future in home audio. Roon has a much better chance. PS Audio already has Roon-ready Ethernet modules, dCS also has their Network box, and MSB is coming out with their upgraded modules within a few months.

x2, you beat me to it. ;-)
You're comparing 2 different animals. Also, do you mean UPNP or DLNA?

 

[asiufy]

x2, you beat me to it. ;-)
You're comparing 2 different animals. Also, do you mean UPNP or DLNA?

DLNA is a subset of UPNP, with more restrictions, DRM, etc. In practice, it's the same thing.