What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

[allhifi]

(RE: " ....but I have taken exhaustive measurements of my mains and carried many listening tests with many types of equipment, including several power conditioners.")

Let's hear more about these tests; succinctly of course. Such Exhaustive Tests must be logged -in chart form. Please share.

Thanks,

pj

 

[microstrip]

No need to be testy, ms. But since you bring it up, let's chat some more.

What "tests" have you done on your AC Mains ?

Listening impressions aside, AC Mains power wreaks havoc (I didn't wish to offend the sensitive with caps -lol) with low-level circuits/ amplification, particularly impacting digital gear -as listening sessions bear out.

And I will say it again because it's valid -and should never be under-appreciated; It's unwise to assume we have "great" AC (or it can't be bettered, because it can).

pj

Spectral distortion up to 50 kHz, noise spectra up to 250 MHz, impedance of line and low frequency fluctuations. For curiosity I also checked the spectra of wow and flutter of the line - an interesting test. When we carry proper measurements we can have some assurances, but no all. Sorry I am here to have a good moment debating experiences and direct opinions, not magazine and internet reviews. BTW, European mains distribution system has different characteristics from US mains.

 

[allhifi]

ms: Great. Please share (some of) the screen shots (or video) of these 'spectral' distortions (up to 50 KHz. no less) and the discovered noise spectra (up to 250 KHz.)

(btw: 'spectral' components refers to a 'spectrum -over a defined (frequency) bandwidth; your 'Distortion' Spectra and 'Noise' spectra can be seen as one/same thing)

Anyway, I'm confident many WBF members would love to see what you've discovered. I know I would.

To do any meaningful measurements on AC power line quality, we require 24/7 monitoring -with, of course the necessary equipment, monitoring and recording elements. Please post a link (to your measurements).

Can you share those with us ?

Thanks,

pj

 

[BillWojo]

The USA's EQui=tech appear the only (strong) Balanced/Symmetrical AC Power supply's
Since AC power is basically a 60 cycle sine wave what does this unit do? Are you saying that part of the sine wave is unbalanced? Where did it go?
I like to use an isolation transformer before any digital gear if I can, as it is optimized for 60Hz and much of the noise is filtered out.
It's like a tube output transformer that is optimized for 20Hz to 40,000Hz. Except the tube output transformer is highly engineered to pass that wide bandwidth and drops off at either end.
Isolation transformers are optimized for 60Hz or 50Hz and make very lousy audio transformers, everything but 60 or 50 HZ gets filtered out. Heck, a transformer rated at 60Hz may be de-rated if run on 50Hz because it becomes inefficient.
So I can make a case for isolation transformers and scientifically make a case for the use of them. I'm very skeptical about some of the other units being sold in the market out there.

BillWojo

 

[allhifi]

The USA's EQui=tech appear the only (strong) Balanced/Symmetrical AC Power supply's
Since AC power is basically a 60 cycle sine wave what does this unit do? Are you saying that part of the sine wave is unbalanced? Where did it go?
I like to use an isolation transformer before any digital gear if I can, as it is optimized for 60Hz and much of the noise is filtered out.
It's like a tube output transformer that is optimized for 20Hz to 40,000Hz. Except the tube output transformer is highly engineered to pass that wide bandwidth and drops off at either end.
Isolation transformers are optimized for 60Hz or 50Hz and make very lousy audio transformers, everything but 60 or 50 HZ gets filtered out. Heck, a transformer rated at 60Hz may be de-rated if run on 50Hz because it becomes inefficient.
So I can make a case for isolation transformers and scientifically make a case for the use of them. I'm very skeptical about some of the other units being sold in the market out there.

BillWojo

Balanced/Symmetrical Power: Do a Google search -and learn.

(" .... I'm very skeptical about some of the other units being sold in the market out there"). Good for you.

pj

 

[Al M.]

I like to use an isolation transformer before any digital gear if I can, as it is optimized for 60Hz and much of the noise is filtered out.
It's like a tube output transformer that is optimized for 20Hz to 40,000Hz. Except the tube output transformer is highly engineered to pass that wide bandwidth and drops off at either end.
Isolation transformers are optimized for 60Hz or 50Hz and make very lousy audio transformers, everything but 60 or 50 HZ gets filtered out. Heck, a transformer rated at 60Hz may be de-rated if run on 50Hz because it becomes inefficient.
So I can make a case for isolation transformers and scientifically make a case for the use of them. I'm very skeptical about some of the other units being sold in the market out there.

BillWojo

I have a TrippLite medical grade isolation transformer (1000W) in front of my digital gear. It cost 400 bucks. I don't see why I should pay multiple times as much for 'audiophile' units that do essentially the same. I don't believe in fancy power cables. Mine are stock or the TrippLite variety ($ 16).

 

[allhifi]

I have a TrippLite medical grade isolation transformer (1000W) in front of my digital gear. It cost 400 bucks. I don't see why I should pay multiple times as much for 'audiophile' units that do essentially the same. I don't believe in fancy power cables. Mine are stock or the TrippLite variety ($ 16).

Hi Bill. Smart: Isolation transformer powereing digital (It's precisely what a Balanced/Symmetrical AC supply uses).

"... I don't believe in fancy power cables." Good.

Yet, find any other (generic) power cord (feeding the audio component from the Iso.), and listen.
To make the results much easier to discern, find a "thin" (#16 guage), and then a fatty/thicker insulated #14/#12 generic power cord.
And then, listen again.

peter jasz

 

[BlueFox]

I have a TrippLite medical grade isolation transformer (1000W) in front of my digital gear. It cost 400 bucks. I don't see why I should pay multiple times as much for 'audiophile' units that do essentially the same. I don't believe in fancy power cables. Mine are stock or the TrippLite variety ($ 16).

Your loss. Enjoy your gear.

 

[allhifi]

Your loss. Enjoy your gear.

No way; 'X-22' Pass preamp ? How do you like it ? Would you how it compares to the ML-326s preamplifier ?

pj

 

[allhifi]

Your loss. Enjoy your gear.

Oh, and the Shunyata Sigma 'signal' cables; your impressions/any comparisons you could make (to brands/model of other similarly premium offerings) ?

Thx,

pj

 

[Al M.]

Your loss. Enjoy your gear.

Haha, I've heard enough of that other stuff, thank you. Anyway, yes, most important that we both enjoy our gear.

 

[microstrip]

I have a TrippLite medical grade isolation transformer (1000W) in front of my digital gear. It cost 400 bucks. I don't see why I should pay multiple times as much for 'audiophile' units that do essentially the same. I don't believe in fancy power cables. Mine are stock or the TrippLite variety ($ 16).

Al. M,

People who connect their DACs directly to mains, as me, could tell you they do not see why you paid infinitum times more for a medical grade isolation transformer ... Each system and each of us is a different case ...

Again, we only start understanding the truth when we meditate about F. Toole writings on stereo and multichannel and S. Linkwitz about F. Toole. Unless we decide or are forced to stop the fall , stereo is really an endless abyss.

 

[Al M.]

Al. M,

People who connect their DACs directly to mains, as me, could tell you they do not see why you paid infinitum times more for a medical grade isolation transformer ... Each system and each of us is a different case ...

Fair point!

 

[wil]

What do you guy's think, either in theory or practice, of using an AC Regenerator and Isolation Transformer together in a system?

Specifically: Wall > PS Audio Regen. > Topaz Iso Trans > simple power strip for Digital (Ethernet Switch, Server and Dac)

The power amp is plugged into Regenerator.

The idea is to optimize the voltage from the wall with the Regen. And then, attenuate the line noise -- from the AC mains and more line noise created by the Regen -- through a Topaz low capacitance Iso transformer which is known for reducing a wide spectrum of common mode noise.

 

[bonzo75]

These are great news for me - I still have not committed to a top expensive player, as I always feared digital obsolescence. In what issue was published such comment?

One of the big speakers must have hit micro in the head in the last five years since this comment

 

[allhifi]

Hi Jpetek,

I am not a fan of expensive items, but I am a big fan of well-made things that make me feel like I got 'the one'. I have listened to the following digital equipment:
- Metronome Kalista Ref/C2a
- Emm CDSA
- Esoteric X-01SE
- Krell 505
- ARC CD 3, 5, 7, 8
- Meridian 808.i2
- Weiss Medea
- DCS Elgar, Scarlatti, Vivaldi
- STahl-Tek Vekian
- Zanden 4-box

I also have listened to the [relatively] more moderate levels: Oppo 83, 95 and some modd'd versions (excellent). I have heard AMR, Unico, Rega, NAD, Rotel, Yamaha, and the list goes on...

To give you my personal bias...I ran a pretty high end system (SF Strads, Guarneris, CJ equipment...using a $60 Daewoo DVD player that embarrassed an $800 Rega player in front of the dealer who admitted there was no point in my upgrading). I did that for almost 10 years because I knew high end digital was better, but I found better places to spend my money and I had not found anything that triggered my interest that seriously.

In my own personal experience, [some] of the digital in the 'expensive tier' possesses a 'magic' that incorporates the following which I find comes at an extraordinary premium for the money (hence why I refused to upgrade in instalments until I could find something magical second hand):

- detail, detail detail without throwing it at you, carving it out space, forcing it
- quiet, quiet quiet noise floor which allows both detail and micro and macro dynamics
- and effortless that makes you really feel like you are listening to music more...and listening less to music reproduction
- You also get incredible full-range presence...the bass I enjoy along with the density of signal, the depth of the note, the meat of the note, and the purity of tone...are all at a level that makes my Oppo 95 (and excellent player) very hard and mechanical. Very. And its a darn good player! Sure, within 3-5 seconds on the right track in the right moment, you might be fooled...but honestly, its tough to be fooled, and in any rationale amount of time, it is so much harder it is not really worth 'testing yourself' anymore...you just go back to listening to music on the bigger DAC.

That said, [for me]...I tried and tried and tried to convince myself to buy the DCS Elgar (over my $60 Daewood player) 3 times...and could never get myself to do it...despite it being a deep discount. I really wanted to upgrade and do it...but never could pull the trigger. It was not worth it to me, even at 35 cents on the dollar of retail. Along came the Zanden (also second hand)...but at 2x my original budget. Took me 20 minutes as the store was closing to ask for an official audition the next day (in my own mind, the next day's 2-hour audition in the store was just a sanity check on my foregone conlusion I was going to buy it)...and mind you, at the time, I had never even heard of Zanden before. I had to google it. And I was already ready to buy it after 20 minutes.

A longwinded way of saying for me, when its right, its right. And in a number of cases, its costs more...but that's the price of magic. I wont pay for other people's magic...I certainly wont pay if there is no magic...would rather pay $60 bucks and save my money. But when its right, magic is wonderful...

I realize this is a 5-year old reply, BUT 'LL-21' speaks to something vital, in hi-fi land: a component must literally floor/ impress/WOW for an "upgrade" to make sense (as in "Wow" -SQ speaking; you;ll know it when you hear it/it's there).

Premium equipment cost premium dollars (within a sensible/desirable circuit design and parts compliment), premium parts are not cheap. A $5-$6K/component price should offer up some nice build quality/circuit design, and sound quality. However, today, rather inexplicably, a premium high-end 'preamp' (Levinson, VTL, Pass) approaches and exceeds $10K (US$) !

So, for that kind of money, you better expect/demand superb, out-of-this-world improvements in SQ, as 'LL21' points out. Big money often equates to top-shelf parts, but assuming it automatically equals superior performance/SQ is altogether a different matter.

pj

 

[microstrip]

One of the big speakers must have hit micro in the head in the last five years since this comment

On the contrary - it was great sounding digital music that hit my ears ... And yes, using fantastic sounding full range speakers helped a lot.

 

[Alrainbow]

Read my two or three last posts why.
You can get very close or even surpass top tier dacs but one must know how to.
As for the reviews we first must know how discerning there system is. A lesser system shows less so makes things closer.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ne-trinity-aqua-formula-stahltek.24595/page-6

 

[BlueFox]

I might be wrong, but should that be in a separate thread.

 

[adamaley]

I might be wrong, but should that be in a separate thread.

Sorry, you were right, and I deleted my post.