Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

[Al M.]

I enjoy following your posts on your Soundlab speakers and I have never heard them although I have talked with a couple of people with a lot of experience with them I would suggest that even though a show environment isn't the ideal venue for hearing systems or music it does offer a very concentrated opportunity to listen to state of the art systems that provide a very wide range of sound. You might come away from that still loving your system but it might also temper your assertions about how excellent your system sounds in comparison to other high end standards. I also think it is likely you have tailored your system to the genres of music you listen to. As far as I can tell that primarily means classical, choral, and a dose of jazz. One of the nice things about the shows is you do get exposed to a wider range of music although it is still true that most of what is played falls into fairly standard audiophile fare. This is everything I heard at the recent T.H.E. show in Costa Mesa. https://open.qobuz.com/playlist/32705565 Anyhow, you might decide to spend a day or two at the next audio show that it is convenient for you to travel to and try to maintain an open mind about what you hear.

My experience of show sound is that it rarely delivers. There are exceptions. I bought my speakers at T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa 2023 after hearing them in the PranaFidelity room, which featured excellent sound. I was able to thoroughly evaluate them with all kinds of different music that I had brought with me on CD. I am still enormously happy with my purchase of the PranaFidelity Dhyana speakers. But that was one of just three or four rooms that I had heard there that had good or great sound. My experience at that same show one year later wasn't any better; just a few rooms with good or great sound, the rest mediocre or bad, regardless of how expensive the systems were.

A generally much better opportunity for exploring good sound has been for me hearing friends' systems at home. I have learned a lot from this, and can confidently say that I would never have arrived at the quality of sound that I did without that inspiration and challenge do do better with my own system.

The experience of hearing friends' systems for a long time mostly corresponded to what you say:

"You might come away from that still loving your system but it might also temper your assertions about how excellent your system sounds in comparison to other high end standards."

 

[Paul1960]

Well yeah, most contemporary LPs are sourced from crappy digital recordings so they're gonna sound crap.

I think that is a lazy, biased, and uninformative generalization. If the problem had to do with digital recordings, which accounts for ~99% of all current music, then why does some contemporary vinyl still sound better than streaming? And it certainly isn't like well produced contemporary music sounds like crap unless you are one of those luddites that thinks all the music made in the past 40 years is crap. Surely you aren't one of those people?

 

[Paul1960]

My experience of show sound is that it rarely delivers. There are exceptions. I bought my speakers at T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa 2023 after hearing them in the PranaFidelity room, which featured excellent sound. I was able to thoroughly evaluate them with all kinds of different music that I had brought with me on CD. I am still enormously happy with my purchase of the PranaFidelity Dhyana speakers. But that was one of just three or four rooms that I had heard there that had good or great sound. My experience at that same show one year later wasn't any better; just a few rooms with good or great sound, the rest mediocre or bad, regardless of how expensive the systems were.

A generally much better opportunity for exploring good sound has been for me hearing friends' systems at home. I have learned a lot from this, and can confidently say that I would never have arrived at the quality of sound that I did without that inspiration and challenge do do better with my own system.

The experience of hearing friends' systems for a long time mostly corresponded to what you say:

"You might come away from that still loving your system but it might also temper your assertions about how excellent your system sounds in comparison to other high end standards."

Are you surprised that a hotel room set up over 24-48 hours doesn't sound as good as a carefully curated system at your friends house? I don't think that is any reason not to go to a show. Personally, I only have 2 friends with better systems than mine so my ability to learn from other people's gear is limited and shows expand my knowledge.

 

[Holmz]

Went to this hifi show today, what didn't surprise me was most digitally sourced rooms sounded bad, nothing like music, but what shocked me was most of the turntable set-ups sounded dull and uninspiring. No wonder there are members here that think vinyl is nothing special compared to digital.

North West – Audio Show

audioshow.co.uk

There is a chance that it was you.
Sometimes everything sounds good, and sometimes everything sounds bad.

It is hard to deconvolve the listener with the music/sounds.

 

[Al M.]

Are you surprised that a hotel room set up over 24-48 hours doesn't sound as good as a carefully curated system at your friends house? I don't think that is any reason not to go to a show.

Of course I am not surprised. And yes, this is a reason not to go to a show.

 

[tima]

Thank you for the information. I would like to hear one someday in a good system.

You've heard a slotless/coreless motor DD in my videos.

 

[No Regrets]

There are exceptions. I bought my speakers at T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa 2023 after hearing them in the PranaFidelity room, which featured excellent sound. I was able to thoroughly evaluate them with all kinds of different music that I had brought with me on CD. I am still enormously happy with my purchase of the PranaFidelity Dhyana speakers.

I didn't come across PranaFidelity this past April at the AXPONA Show near Chicago. However, Steven was showing his stand mounted Dhara speakers last year at AXPONA and I'll tell you what... I thought those speakers put out some amazing sound for such a small speaker! I came back to Steven's room several times over the 3 days that I was at the show, because I enjoyed it that much! I can only imagine how much better your model might sound.

Best wishes,
Don

​

 

[godofwealth]

In my early years as an audiophile in the ‘80’s, when I was an impoverished grad student, I read a lot of TAS. It was highly opinionated and eccentric. No doubt highly influenced by its creator Harry Pearson, who was a bit eccentric. But I thoroughly enjoyed it, particularly its tongue-in-cheek character. The cartoons were quite funny. There were a lot of serious articles on music and series like Sid Marks long survey of RCA Living Stereo recordings.

But fortunately I was also exposed to a lot of live classical music through a year long student subscription to the Pittsburgh Symphony under Lorin Maazel. That helped me understand what HP was getting at in his writings on “the absolute sound”. It was a time when there were many good dealerships and I was able to listen to a lot of different systems. I gravitated to electrostatic loudspeakers fairly early on, after a brief stint with Spendor box loudspeakers. These were dynamically challenged but their midrange was lovely.

My current reference Soundlab G9-7c is far less dynamically challenged, but I would imagine you could easily find box loudspeakers at its price range that go louder or deeper in the bass. But at the expense of midrange coherence. A crossover-less loudspeaker with no internal box will have some inherent advantages that no box loudspeakers are going to equal. I owned a pair of B&W 800 Diamonds for a few years back in the east coast, but eventually their rising top-end was too much to take. I like loudspeakers that let me enjoy a wide range of music, from 1930’s jazz to modern classical high res recordings.

 

[tima]

I thought audio shows such as the high-end portion of CES were originally opportunities for business between manufacturers or distributors and buyers. And to show or announce new models to same. They were less consumer oriented events although press could attend.

The idea of demonstration for consumers grew out of that seemingly by coincidence or by the show owners/planners looking to make money off attendance. Thus the rise of the consumer oriented audio show. But who (no one?) would see hotel rooms as a decent venue? It can be very costly for dealers, distributors, manufacturers. Those with experience or skill can get 'acceptable' results but no one would choose those conditions for evaluation. If you don't have expectations you won't be disappointed.

 

[sbo6]

whereas digital performance is system and room dependent and we can expect digital players to have consistent performance of themselves, vinyl is much more variable especially which pressings are used. so unless you brought your own pressing and know the vinyl set-up guy in that room, it's hard to put much stock into expectations.

Curious why you believe any particular source type has any more (or less) effect on a room?

 

[godofwealth]

Several decades ago I vividly remember how I ended up buying my first high end turntable, a Basis Ovation with a Graham 1.5T tonearm. I visited a high end store in Scarsdale, NY, where they had the table set up in a large listening room. It was hooked up to a pair of Theil CS7’s through a set of fancy Krell electronics.

The dealer was a shrewd salesperson. He told me to listen to my stack of viny as long as I wanted and to feel free to play any of their vinyl in the store. I spent half a day literally playing a lot of vinyl and having a blast. I bought their demo table. I owned that turntable for almost 30 years, selling it reluctantly when I moved to the west coast and was contemplating living in a tiny apartment in San Francisco. I had to replace the tonearm when the internal cabling broke and Graham himself told me it could not be fixed.

I think dealers that let you do this are worth seeking out today. But you can’t do this at an audio show.

 

[bonzo75]

This is the legendary Denon DP100M. Very rare and I am told extremely good sounding. I think it came from Peter, but I do not know if he set it up.

I compared DP100 to Holbo audio at Sallingboe audio in Denmark. The Denon had Ikeda and Ikeda top cart while the Holbo had the lower model Ikeda cart. I preferred fluidity of Holbo. Others can visit Sallingboe though his tables for compare might have changed now

 

[PeterA]

You've heard a slotless/coreless motor DD in my videos.

Yes. I meant that I would like to hear the Denon TT.

 

[morricab]

Yes. I meant that I would like to hear the Denon TT.

You once heard the Technics SP10 mK3, correct? If I recall, you were not so fond of that sound. Not saying the Denon sounds the same as that but the lower Denon models trend in that direction...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Curious why you believe any particular source type has any more (or less) effect on a room?

Rereading my post I don’t think I was clear enough with my wording. My intent was to say that with digital it’s plug and play almost 100%. So it leaves just the room and system. Digital media itself is going to be very consistent mostly from home to show and show room to room.

Whereas with vinyl yes, rooms and systems are similarly variable, but even with the same gear set up is going to be all over the place and pressings can vary hugely.

Just too many shades of the result for vinyl compared to predictable digital……at any show.

If you see a dac and server and they are streaming that is quite limited (in range of results....not in performance) in the result. the exhibitor can't change that much or be an influence in what it does. It’s close to being a reference to judge the other factors. Unless tube rolling is involved.

 

[PeterA]

You once heard the Technics SP10 mK3, correct? If I recall, you were not so fond of that sound. Not saying the Denon sounds the same as that but the lower Denon models trend in that direction...

Yes, I have heard the SP10 in my system and did not like it compared to my SME Model 30/12. It might’ve been the Porter plinth or some other reason.

I do own a lower model Denon and it sounds great in my system. I think the overall presentation from a turntable depends on more than just the specifics of the motor type. Implementation and other factors also matter.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Just too many shades of the result for vinyl compared to predictable digital……at any show. (...)

Do you think that tape is as predictable as digital?

IMO nothing is predictable at a show, unless the demonstrator knows how to select recordings. In some sense stereo is not predictable - the well know Circle of Confusion.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Do you think that tape is as predictable as digital?

way less predictable. machine quality, heads and output electronics all are over the board, as is the media. vinyl in certain rooms being much more likely to make me smile, which is many times the choice of music as much as the sound. if i hear 'Stimela' one more time i'm going to puke. and sometimes the tape is from digital files.

OTOH chicks love spinning reels.

when tape is great.....it's really great. and some tape guys are consistently good, of course. but having tape is no guarantee.

IMO nothing is predictable at a show, unless the demonstrator knows how to select recordings. In some sense stereo is not predictable - the well know Circle of Confusion.

for sure.

 

[marty]

if i hear 'Stimela' one more time i'm going to puke.

Very funny.
Very true!

 

[andromedaaudio]

The rest are ..... Just amateurs .

And hell ya shows can sound good