Let's Talk Computer Audio

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi

I am with AMirm, I also believe that our tendencies are getting the best of us and is in the way of enjoying music. Playing music through a computer brings a degree of ergonomics that nothing else matches. The bonus are that performance is extremely high usually superior to dedicated tranports ... and it is not even expensive. You plunk less than 1 K (much less in most instances) to get a dedicated laptop , you feed the feed the bits to your DAC through an asynchronous converter and you control the darn contraption with an iPad or Android tablet. Total cost less than 2K.. My last CD transport .. I repeat CD Transport was a cool $15,000 and I am sure that my present GK Music Server would be its superior plus it plays anything ... Hi _Res .. Have not cared about DSD that much yet ... THe GK Music Server cost ... about $500 and a few hours of my time following simple directions ... An asynchronous USB to SPDIF converter range from less than $100 to over $3 K ... I have heard several and frankly can't find much differences between them so ... call me tin-eared but I doubt most people here would hear differences between them in a a blind test. Not saying there aren't ..they're small.

So to answer Steve: I understand you are an IOS person and that is OK .. Use an iPad for control . Try the GK Music server abundantly documented in this very forum and if needs be Gary can help you ... It is cheap and works extremely well For asynchronous USB use the April Music Stello U3 about $50( it is I think compatible wit IOS so if you want to go Mac at all cost you are covered) and just use your current DAC with not a thought ... For player I recommend JRMC or Foobar JR is about $60 and Foo is free ... You control the darn thing with your iPad.

As for ripping .. DB Power amp does a great job.. Takes a while to get used to it but worth it less than $30 ...I don't know what works well on the IOS front for ripping

. Ripping sounds like a lot of work and it is .. I have come to take it slowly I rip CD as soon as I get them. The best way is to rip CDs every day .. Soon you are done the process is simple after all and for the most part error-free unless the CD is in bad shape ... rarely the case for an audiophile ...

Results? Music , lot of it .. Easily accessible and so practical you'll ask yourself why you didn't do it before ...
After you move to whatever canned or Apple IOS solution stroking your fancy, don't expect it to be automatically superior to the GK Server but you would already have your music on your Hard Drive ...

By the way the GK Music Server is the one concocted by our very own Gary L. Koh ... .. Again... thanks Gary

This. And if you want to go Apple (no need, but it makes a lot of sense if you're already an Apple house), use iTunes with Pure Music or something similar to play hi res files at native resolution. I even rip in iTunes with no trouble and a lot of convenience. When I first archived, I had the laptop and hard drive set up and iTunes set to rip, error-correct and automatically eject each CD when done. It was going evenings and weekends for a couple of weeks as I walked by saw a CD sticking out, fed the next one in. Time-consuming but easy. You could pay a kid to do it for you.

Then, when it's all over, you get the goodies; you type in Blue in Green, or Into the Mystic and up pops every recording of that song you own. I have quite a few of Blue in Green. Or search search by artist. Or shuffle by genre. You're going to discover jewels in your collection that you haven't listened to in years. Theyh're going to be incredibly easy to get to. You're going to like it.

Tim

 

[rbbert]

When it the last time (version) you used Jriver? A lot of people (including me) would rank them #1 in usability. Jremote is also best in class.

JRiver simply will not organize my music files, it doesn't even seem to recognize many of them. If your music collection has much classical music or any not officially released material, forget it. At least with Foobar I can find it, and AFAICT the playback engines are the same (Foobar's may even be a bit more streamlined on some setups).

 

[Vincent Kars]

Vincent,

We are reading different opinions on the audibility of the players from members with different listening habits such as:





It seems natural to debate weather headphone listening is the ultimate and only tool to evaluate computer audio sound quality.

Or should we restrain ourselves to "do not know", 0's, 1's, ns and ps in this thread?

Talking about differences between speaker and headphone listening is not really about computer audio, isn’t it?

 

[Vincent Kars]

JRiver simply will not organize my music files, it doesn't even seem to recognize many of them. If your music collection has much classical music or any not officially released material, forget it. At least with Foobar I can find it, and AFAICT the playback engines are the same (Foobar's may even be a bit more streamlined on some setups).

Funny, the bulk of my collection is classical, I use JRiver, and I see all of my files.
Might it be you have a lot of WAV’s without tags or not enabled the WAV tagging plugin in JRiver?

If you mean tagging using their online database (YADB), this is a hopeless case indeed in case of classical.

 

[rbbert]

Funny, the bulk of my collection is classical, I use JRiver, and I see all of my files.
Might it be you have a lot of WAV’s without tags or not enabled the WAV tagging plugin in JRiver?

I probably have a few WAV's without tags, but they are mostly FLAC. Just a simple example; Ivan Fischer has several Mahler symphonies on HDtracks and a couple more only on Channel Classics' site. Well, Sym #1 from Channel's site comes up under "Budapest" (the orchestra). Sym 2 (HDtracks) and Sym 6 (Channel) come up under "Fischer". Sym 4 (HDtracks) comes up as "Mahler". I have lots of unofficial releases: "bootlegs", radio broadcasts, audience tapes. JRiver only recognizes the tagged ones (not very many), while Foobar finds them all easily.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Looks like a tagging problem to me.
If a file is not tagged it will appear under “Unknown”
If you are using the Album Artist view, it will of course depend on the value in the Album Artist tag where a file will appear.

As far as I know, Foobar does the same (using tags) except if you are using the File system to browse for files. This can be done in JRiver as well.

 

[Old Listener]

JRiver simply will not organize my music files, it doesn't even seem to recognize many of them. If your music collection has much classical music or any not officially released material, forget it.

JRiver has worked very well for me for over 7 years. My collection is about 70% classical music and another 15-20% is Broadway shows and Great American Songbook material where the Composer matters as much as the performer. Here is a screenshot of a view I use for classical music.

You may need to edit some tags yourself. It pays to look at the tag values retrieved from the online database and fix any errors before you rip a CD.

It takes me about one minute to edit tags before I rip most classical CDs. It might take three minutes for a few CDs where I have to type in lots of movement names.

JRiver has very useful features to make tag entry/editing quicker, less error prone and less painful. You do need to learn to use them to get the full benefit.

Bill

 

[rbbert]

Looks like a tagging problem to me.
If a file is not tagged it will appear under “Unknown”
If you are using the Album Artist view, it will of course depend on the value in the Album Artist tag where a file will appear.

As far as I know, Foobar does the same (using tags) except if you are using the File system to browse for files. This can be done in JRiver as well.

Kind of defeats the purpose of buying a player, though, if the free one works as well or better...

 

[Vincent Kars]

I used Foobar for a while but didn’t like the interface.
You can configure it with Columns UI but I didn’t like the labor involved.
BTW: Mike Le Voi made a Foobar interface specially for classical: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/TG/MediaPlayer.html

I switched to JRiver.
I can crate all kind of views allowing me to browse by Composer, Composition, Opus, etc.

For ripping I use dBpoweramp, like its multiple internet databases and its fast secure ripping including accurate rip support.

For tagging classical I use the MusiCHI tagger, allows me to populate my custom tags rather fast.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/CHI/CHI_Tagger.htm

 

[Old Listener]

I probably have a few WAV's without tags, but they are mostly FLAC. Just a simple example; Ivan Fischer has several Mahler symphonies on HDtracks and a couple more only on Channel Classics' site. Well, Sym #1 from Channel's site comes up under "Budapest" (the orchestra). Sym 2 (HDtracks) and Sym 6 (Channel) come up under "Fischer". Sym 4 (HDtracks) comes up as "Mahler". I have lots of unofficial releases: "bootlegs", radio broadcasts, audience tapes. JRiver only recognizes the tagged ones (not very many), while Foobar finds them all easily.

Perhaps it didn't occur to you that the files you downloaded from HDTracks and Channel Classics contained inconsistent tags.

If the file names (and the names of the folders that contain them) contain useful identification, JRiver can build tags from that information.

Vincent pointed out that you can browse music files by folder and file name in JRiver. JRiver can also search for names present in folder/file names as well as in tags.

Bill

 

[rbbert]

Perhaps it didn't occur to you that the files you downloaded from HDTracks and Channel Classics contained inconsistent tags.

If the file names (and the names of the folders that contain them) contain useful identification, JRiver can build tags from that information.

Vincent pointed out that you can browse music files by folder and file name in JRiver. JRiver can also search for names present in folder/file names as well as in tags.

Bill

But it's embarrassingly quick and easy to find and play the disc (CD, SACD, DVD-A, etc) I want to hear, much more so than on my computer. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to be using a music server as my primary source. The problems for me are: 1) I have far too much music to be contained on any one or two (or three...) hard drives 2) ripping and tagging is a major pain and time consuming as well, and as you note the tagging needs to be double-checked at least 3) it's lots faster and easier for me to find the music I want to hear on disc and play it. So I end up using my computer only a small portion of my music listening time

 

[Old Listener]

But it's embarrassingly quick and easy to find and play the disc (CD, SACD, DVD-A, etc) I want to hear, much more so than on my computer. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to be using a music server as my primary source. The problems for me are: 1) I have far too much music to be contained on any one or two (or three...) hard drives 2) ripping and tagging is a major pain and time consuming as well, and as you note the tagging needs to be double-checked at least 3) it's lots faster and easier for me to find the music I want to hear on disc and play it. So I end up using my computer only a small portion of my music listening time

Computer audio allows me to do things that would be agonizing difficult with CDs. For example, yesterday I decided to listen to something from Allen Toussaint's "The Bright Mississippi" CD. My eye fell on the Saint James Infirmary track so I played it. Then I wanted to compare it to a Louis Armstrong performance. A couple of clicks and I see the tracks I have. I pick one from the 2000 "Hot Fives & Hot sevens" reissue set and play it. than I decide to listen to another performance from later in his career. Then my eye fell on "Squeeze me (the boy in the boat)" so I played that. The process went on for awhile driven by my viewing my collection and playing whatever caught my attention.

In terms of physical CDs, the process would have been nearly impossible. You see the contents of one Armstrong CD at a time. I see all the tracks performed by Armstrong in my collection. Maybe you remember the complete contents of every album you own and where you filed it. That got difficult for me when I passed 1000 CDs. Now JRiver remembers everything for me.

Computer audio takes some investment. You need to learn some new concepts and acquire some new skills. You have to do some work ripping your CD collection initially. After that keeping up with purchases is not a big deal. It takes more time to buy 'em than it does to rip and tag them. In return for the effort, I get new capabilities that I can use for the rest of my life.

I didn't say that tagging requires double checking. I get the tags right when I rip the CDs.

Far too much music to fit on one, two or three hard drives? That must be a very big collection. My music collection has 10-20 performances of much of the classical music I really like and it all fits in less than 1 TB. I lost count of CDs a long time ago but I'd guess it's about 3000.

Your posts suggest that computer audio isn't right for you. But let's be clear. It isn't because JRiver is useless for classical music. It because you don't see a reason to put much effort into computer audio.

Bill

 

[rbbert]

My total disc count is over 12,000, so you can see some of my problem. I have about 1.5 TB ripped to FLAC, apparently with inconsistent tagging. I very much appreciate the potential, and I continue to slowly rip and import more music, but as yet it hasn't met my needs as well as disc playback.

 

[Julf]

My total disc count is over 12,000, so you can see some of my problem. I have about 1.5 TB ripped to FLAC, apparently with inconsistent tagging. I very much appreciate the potential, and I continue to slowly rip and import more music, but as yet it hasn't met my needs as well as disc playback.

Cataloging 12,000 physical CD's must be a major undertaking in itself. I suggest you look into rippers/importers/tag editors that can use databases such as Musicbrainz to get reasonable tagging automatically. I use beets (and occasionally picard for interactive stuff), but I am a Linux guy (and my collection is only 0.5 TB).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

My total disc count is over 12,000, so you can see some of my problem. I have about 1.5 TB ripped to FLAC, apparently with inconsistent tagging. I very much appreciate the potential, and I continue to slowly rip and import more music, but as yet it hasn't met my needs as well as disc playback.

So begin by burning the stuff you actually have time to listen to. At 12,000 discs, I'm guessing there's a lot of "collecting" going on there; probably even a fair amount of stuff that hasn't been played yet. That doesn't need to be in the server. Having a server doesn't mean eliminating a player. And when you find a piece moving from the collection/listen to once a year side, to the more active listening side, rip it.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Spending time individually ripping and tagging large collections of CDs is a bizarre process. Why should millions of people loose their time repeating exactly the same action? I bought dBpoweramp and was very pleased to find that my rips were accurate and exactly the same as thousands others for the first dozen of CDs, than I noticed I was just one more guy repeating the same exercise for fun. At that time I had no more fun.

Computer audio should organize in order to overcome this loss of giga hours of leisure time.

 

[Julf]

Spending time individually ripping and tagging large collections of CDs is a bizarre process. Why should millions of people loose their time repeating exactly the same action? I bought dBpoweramp and was very pleased to find that my rips were accurate and exactly the same as thousands others for the first dozen of CDs, than I noticed I was just one more guy repeating the same exercise for fun. At that time I had no more fun.

Computer audio should organize in order to overcome this loss of giga hours of leisure time.

The tagging has been dealt with - just look at Musicbrainz etc.

The ripping is easy enough to deal with from a technical point of view, but is blocked by (US, but being pushed on the rest of the world) copyright law. You are not allowed to share the ripped bits with anyone, even if the other person owns precisely the same bits on a CD. And anyway, the bits might sound better if ripped on an expensive audiophile computer

 

[rbbert]

One frustrating thing is that when I tried the Logitech Squeezebox, its software (quirky as it was in some ways) quickly showed me all the music on the hard drive in an easily identifiable and accessible way. Unfortunately, I could never get my Squeezebox setup to sound as good as a direct computer to DAC connection.

 

[Julf]

I could never get my Squeezebox setup to sound as good as a direct computer to DAC connection.

Did you use an external DAC with the squeezebox as well? My personal experience is that the sound quality of my Squeezebox touch driving an external DAC is just as good (if not better) than the sound of the same DAC being driven by my computer.

 

[rbbert]

I used an external power supply, "tool kit" and external DAC all together and in various combinations. For whatever reason, the Squeezebox setup never had quite the same dynamics or imaging of the straight computer to DAC setup.