How Do Horn Speakers Get Their Gorgeous Life-like Tonality?

[kodomo]

Transmission line rear horn loaded speakers can do bass. The issue is that feedback can diminish it greatly because of how they work. That’s a problem for more symmetrical, consistent, bass production like found in more modern music. Try something that doesn’t really have much for feedback, or a current source amp on a single driver and you’ll be able to rock out to EDM just fine.

Spatial cues are higher frequencies. Bass is just vibrations till it has accompanied frequencies defining it.

Yes, they can do bass for sure. As I have written it would also be clean and can be powerful. It will not however be time aligned with the rest of the system. This is physically impossible. It will therefore create effects that can be more or less audible depending on the recording. That is why it may be disjointed with more modern music, not because of levels of bass are higher or similar.

Can you share which ones that would be for you?

I can live with Vandersteen model 7's. Altough the speakers are very different than mine, our approach to crossovers is very similar.

 

[christoph]

I can live with Vandersteen model 7's. Altough the speakers are very different than mine, our approach to crossovers is very similar.

Thank you.
Similar to your Approach, you mean time- and phase-coherent?

 

[bonzo75]

With the pnoe, I observed that with lower power of 1w, the bass seems well integrated, and extremely fast, liquid, nuanced. As you add on more power, whether the 18w Mayer, or especially the 40w NAT magma, the bass gets more disparate though I don't know if this is because of what you are referring to. These speakers are best run with 1w with the 46 valves. The stage, bass, all is just more right that way. The bass can get real loud. It was awful at Munich with the 100w Ypsilon integrated hybrid. And yes, this pnoe had some add on from the Munich model that the General can clarify.

And that is what makes the 1w a must have amp, it is possibly the best amp if you can find a speaker for it, but apart from a couple of WE, and Bill's loth minstrel (which is not full range, though it is magical in what it has), the main full range speaker is pnoe. So together they make a fantastic combo. And yes, by running the purest vinyl through no crossover, caps, resistors, is how the general achieves his magic.

I

 

[bonzo75]

Why not the Pnoe?


I think I know quite a few people telling you exactly that. I was one of them

If he had a penny for the amount of time he got angry at us for telling him horns will be better than his focal, he could have bought himself a pnoe

 

[kodomo]

Thank you.
Similar to your Approach, you mean time- and phase-coherent?

Yes. Me and Vandersteen both utilises first order filters (6db/oct) with parallel impedance compensation. I use more exotic parts with mine, and believe that they contribute to making my crossovers more transparent. Setup of my horn channels (midbass, mid, upper-mid, treble) makes it possible to move them back, forth or up and down. Once the sitting position is fixed, the rest is arranged according to that. I use impulse response to estimate and then physically align each channel to match.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes. Me and Vandersteen both utilises first order filters (6db/oct) with parallel impedance compensation. I use more exotic parts with mine, and believe that they contribute to making my crossovers more transparent. Setup of my horn channels (midbass, mid, upper-mid, treble) makes it possible to move them back, forth or up and down. Once the sitting position is fixed, the rest is arranged according to that. I use impulse response to estimate and then physically align each channel to match.

Is this using DRC?

 

[tima]

Don't you think you experienced "special pampering", being an audio reviewer?

You mean do I believe I received a better speaker setup than the same person would have done for someone else?

Not really. Wilson doesn't work that way.

 

[christoph]

Yes. Me and Vandersteen both utilises first order filters (6db/oct) with parallel impedance compensation. I use more exotic parts with mine, and believe that they contribute to making my crossovers more transparent. Setup of my horn channels (midbass, mid, upper-mid, treble) makes it possible to move them back, forth or up and down. Once the sitting position is fixed, the rest is arranged according to that. I use impulse response to estimate and then physically align each channel to match.

Thank you for your extensive and very interesting answer

 

[kodomo]

Is this using DRC?

Do you mean digital room correction? There is nothing digital at all. The crossovers are passive first order, impedance compensated. There are eight 30x30cm boards that make up my crossovers, with nos vacuum caps, nos silver micas etc

The physical alignment of the channels in relation to each other are based upon actual impulse measurement. The alignment of the channels can not stay the same if your seating position changes. I have changed my room after building these speakers and so I readjusted channels according to my new seating position. The changes are made physically by moving channels forwards and backwards based upon the measurements.

 

[bonzo75]

It will be very, very interesting to listen to your speakers at some point.

 

[kodomo]

It will be very, very interesting to listen to your speakers at some point.

Wait till I get the VDH Colibri master signature with the Grail preamp and break them in

This forum has started ruining me, I have to get back to getting just records! Even before receiving the cartridge/pre, my mind has already started wandering about Thomas Mayer's 10Y line stage!

I am lucky enough not no to have audiophile friends living closeby to talk me into all this stuff. Still, I promised myself to wait and go to Munich on May and listen to Thomas Mayer equipment there before considering to get one.

I always had the following idea. Get or build the right speakers with the matching room first. Then get your sources sorted out. Then preamps and amplifiers. I am happy with my speakers and room. I am happy with my tt and arm. Those I do not plan on changing in the foreseeble future. The rest can be upgraded, I am open to it (even though I am quite content with them).

 

[christoph]

my mind has already started wandering about Thomas Mayer's 10Y line stage!

Be prepared to move a lot
IIrc, Thomas Mayer doesn't do remote control

 

[Folsom]

Yes, they can do bass for sure. As I have written it would also be clean and can be powerful. It will not however be time aligned with the rest of the system. This is physically impossible. It will therefore create effects that can be more or less audible depending on the recording. That is why it may be disjointed with more modern music, not because of levels of bass are higher or similar.

Time alignment is nothing more than marketing nonsense. Phase matters but it's a moving target. People don't even like overly tight bass because it sounds sterile. If you want it more defined then not having a port or transmission line is a start. Ports resonate so by design they're not as accurate since the resonance is between the port and driver.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

ThePnoe are too big for your place Bill?

Tang

Hi Tang,

Yes indeed so, Sir. I was recently banished by my wife to another room in the house for audio now and the new one is 18’4” x 11’8” so whilst it could just about work, it wouldn’t be ideal. Never say never though cos I am mad enough to have a go

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Why not the Pnoe?


I think I know quite a few people telling you exactly that. I was one of them

Hey Chris,

2 comments:

> Most of the previous horn dems I had heard honked too much for my taste. It put me off the breed. I realised their potential in the WE demonstrations though.

> I was actually pleased with myself for taking the step to get out and resolve it. Many folks get deeper into the abyss and try to argue their philosophy - thankfully I am not so inclined

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Ah forgot Chris - Pnoe is too big for my new room tbh. Won’t necessarily stop me but it wouldn’t be sensible lol. Now it would suit your gigantic room!

 

[bonzo75]

Hey Chris,

> I was actually pleased with myself for taking the step to get out and resolve it. Many folks get deeper into the abyss and try to argue their philosophy - thankfully I am not so inclined

You should bold that for microstrip, Rudolph, to copy and paste after they move to horns.

 

[christoph]

Ah forgot Chris - Pnoe is too big for my new room tbh. Won’t necessarily stop me but it wouldn’t be sensible lol. Now it would suit your gigantic room!

Isn't this whole hobby driven by insensible decisions?
I could visualize them in our living room, but then again the Universums are really extremely good
How much is the retail price of the Pnoes anyways?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Isn't this whole hobby driven by insensible decisions?
I could visualize them in our living room, but then again the Universums are really extremely good
How much is the retail price of the Pnoes anyways?

Yes list / retail price of Pnoes is a lot. It is 68k euros for the AER version as of their website just now: https://aer-loudspeakers.com/aer-pnoe/

 

[DaveC]

Yes list / retail price of Pnoes is a lot. It is 68k euros for the AER version as of their website just now: https://aer-loudspeakers.com/aer-pnoe/

I have to get my speaker done... $20k-ish and with a horn covering 400-15,000 Hz can be used in smaller spaces. The driver is competitive with AER, I have heard and owned AER. They are excellent though, one of the world's best single driver speakers for sure. Makes Voxativ sound a bit bland.