Koetsu

jadis

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I completely agree with you.
I don’t think I’d ever consider another make.

The first ever time I laid eyes and ears at at Koetsu was at a neighbor's place where he had an ML HQD system and Micro Seiki table, with a Koetsu Rosewood. What struck me most was that he has another brand new Koetsu lying beside the turntable and I asked him why. He said, he can not live without a Koetsu and it was a backup assurance that he will live on happy with his audio system. :)

The guy who sold me the Black had a running Black on his table and he sold me his spare due to financial issues. After 8 years of using it, I decided to take on the distributorship of the brand. Last January I was given a loaner Linn Krystal cartridge by the local distributor while I await my Urushi to arrive. Listening to it for a month or so confirmed why I never looked elsewhere. The magic was not there. :)
 
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Nemal1

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When the rosewood arrived in the UK in the (approximately) early 1980’s it cost £500.00 when a typical moving child was just over £100. The onyx introduced sometime later was £800.

Now we have non-koetsu cartridges costing in excess of £15,000 from obscure brands that are popping up on a regular basis, but would you really choose one of them in place of a koetsu?
 

jadis

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When the rosewood arrived in the UK in the (approximately) early 1980’s it cost £500.00 when a typical moving child was just over £100. The onyx introduced sometime later was £800.

Now we have non-koetsu cartridges costing in excess of £15,000 from obscure brands that are popping up on a regular basis, but would you really choose one of them in place of a koetsu?

I recall I almost bought the Black myself in Hong Kong for $200 US. I backed out as he didn't have any table to test it with and I don't want to bring it home with a DOA possibility. Koetsu has good resale value. Even BROKEN Koetsus have resale values. :D
 
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microstrip

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I recall I almost bought the Black myself in Hong Kong for $200 US. I backed out as he didn't have any table to test it with and I don't want to bring it home with a DOA possibility. Koetsu has good resale value. Even BROKEN Koetsus have resale values. :D

Although I loved the Koetsu's I moved away from the brand just because of the high re-tipping/exchange cost of Koetsu cartridges in Europe in the 90's. What percentage of retail cost are consumers charged for a standard re-tip nowadays?
 

microstrip

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When the rosewood arrived in the UK in the (approximately) early 1980’s it cost £500.00 when a typical moving child was just over £100. The onyx introduced sometime later was £800.

I used both in a Sumiko MDC800 (The Arm) tonearm in the early 90's - surely in an Oracle! Great times ...
 

jadis

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Although I loved the Koetsu's I moved away from the brand just because of the high re-tipping/exchange cost of Koetsu cartridges in Europe in the 90's. What percentage of retail cost are consumers charged for a standard re-tip nowadays?

Last year I helped someone do a rebuilding job for $1500 for his Rose wood signature which is now retailing at $5000. The platinum models are more expensive to rebuild and the diamond tip is even more, like $4000, but the thing retails at the $20k level.
 

tdh888

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Hi guys ,

An update we were able to mount the White Coralstone w/ Diamond Cantilever to our friend’s Kuzma 4 point 11” w/ out any problem . All went smoothly . We only had a hard time in aligning the Cantilever using the Kuzma supplied protractor . The stone body and the short cantilever made this procedure a chore . But through sheer patience and determination we were able to align it .VTA was set parallel to the platter, VTF at 1.88-1.9 grams. Azimuth was a breeaze w/ Kuzma’s unique micrometer adjustment and a Fogzometer . Cartridge was loaded at 100 ohms . Using the ARC REF Phono 10 phonostage.
We played Rebecca Pidgeon’s Spanish Harlem and it sounds fantastic , her lyrics were so clear , bass was tight but powerful not like the old Koetsu . We were very happy w/ the result .
88C0362C-1EF7-479D-BE6B-5E33B07726DE.png
 

tdh888

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Thanks very much to Jadis , Mulveling and other WBF members for tips and words of encouragement.
 
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jadis

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TGAmtp
Thanks very much to Jadis , Mulveling and other WBF members for tips and words of encouragement.

That's good to hear, doc. Let Koetsu sing!
 

Ron Resnick

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How would you compare and contrast the sound of the Coralstone with the diamond cantilever and the Coralstone with the boron cantilever?
 

tdh888

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Hi Ron ,

Unfortunately I’ve not had the pleasure to listen to a modern stone body Koetsu w/ the Boron Cantilever , probably Phillip , mulveling and others can chime in . I’ve heard a vintage stone body Onyx and it sound glorious, compared to the wood body bass was tighter a little high frequency extension w/ the same midrange magic .

Tdh888
 

jadis

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How would you compare and contrast the sound of the Coralstone with the diamond cantilever and the Coralstone with the boron cantilever?

I have not done a head on comparison between the two because the owner who has a Coral boron has just kept his Coral Diamond in his cabinet, for 13 years and running.

I personally will prefer a boron cantilever as I have been so used with them. The diamond option gives fantastic detail, transient speed, and dynamics but all I need for my Koetsu to do is sing with passion and emotion when it comes to midrange area. If I do get a Jade boron someday as I wish I will, I believe it will probably stay with me for good. I would have called my analog life complete. :)
 
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Nemal1

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Going back up a message or two, my late father had his long body onyx on a sumiko arm- before his triplanar- on an oracle premier, Beveridge pre and system 3 speakers, stasis 1000 monos. Glorious sound I’ve long aspired to even if rose tinted over time. Sometimes I truly believe this hobby of ours is just getting more and more expensive without progressing.
 

mulveling

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Mine was a head to head between CoralStone boron and Blue Lace DC. I like it so much I recently sent the CoralStone in to be DC'd too. So I can answer Ron's query soon. The DC has next-level detail and realism from a Koetsu, without sacrificing the midrange - in fact it's even better since it's so real. Everything snaps into perfect focus. If you have a problem with harshness in treble (6k-8k?) on the pressing and in your speakers/room, then the DC will ruthlessly reveal it - that is the only downside I've found. But the positives are so overwhelming; there's simply no going back. And I'll find a way to address this problem in my system (probably from the Tannoys to be honest).

The various stones (of boron & Platinum type) only had subtle differences among them, that were hard to describe. Maybe the CoralStone had a little more output too (the Blue Lace DC seems to have a lot more output), but that probably comes down to magnet sizes between units. The RSP to stone platinum was a somewhat more notable difference; I prefer the stones for their better bass. The alnico vs. platinum magnets in an Onyx made a huge difference in output (alnico 2x more) and then some interesting sonic differences that weren't all in favor of one or the other magnet type. The DC was a true Keanu Reeves "woah" moment. I'd extrapolate that a used/broken RSP or Onyx rebuilt with a DC might be the best "deal" in high-end Koetsus.
 
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mulveling

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Going back up a message or two, my late father had his long body onyx on a sumiko arm- before his triplanar- on an oracle premier, Beveridge pre and system 3 speakers, stasis 1000 monos. Glorious sound I’ve long aspired to even if rose tinted over time. Sometimes I truly believe this hobby of ours is just getting more and more expensive without progressing.
I've gone back to old gear a few times out of nostalgia. And though nothing is ever a true apples-to-apples comparison, from what I can discern the newer reference gear decidedly thrashes my fond memories in a head-to-head fight. I.e. there's no going back. That said, the enjoyment I got from favorite old gear of the past (i.e. my perception of how great it was at the time) still forms part of the dragon that's being chased today - the other part being the unknown "but I bet it *could* still be better, somehow". Too bad we can't swap perceptions and state of mind like we can gear :-/

Edit: as per Kcin's post below, I certainly think mods/upgrades and modern support can bring some old classics back to the top. I didn't try that in my nostalgia experiments :)
 
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Kcin

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Going back up a message or two, my late father had his long body onyx on a sumiko arm- before his triplanar- on an oracle premier, Beveridge pre and system 3 speakers, stasis 1000 monos. Glorious sound I’ve long aspired to even if rose tinted over time. Sometimes I truly believe this hobby of ours is just getting more and more expensive without progressing.

I have tried to mix the old with the new. My fondest audio epiphany was the Beveridge loudspeakers of the time. Some almost 40 years later I am listening to a refurbished pair of Model 3 Beveridge Loudspeakers modified with direct drive tube amps to modern standards. Thrown into the amalgam is a Koetsu RSP ,Koetsu Jade Platinum, Atlas , Etna SL and GFS.

All I can say is that in some aspects with careful 1st order crossovers and modern subs I can accomplish a few things with the presentation that challenge many modern systems. Having a resolving phono stage helps.
 

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jadis

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As far as 'old stuffs' are concerned, I'd take that on a case to case approach. My oldest gear are the Magnepan 2.7QRs, made in 1994 but I bought them new in 1997. 25 years since it was made by it's ancestors date back to 1973, the first MG 2. I still can't find something to replace it with that does not cost 8-10x more. And my worry about it is its old age syndrome.

Going into the old Koetsu Black, I'd say the Rosewood Signature betters it in many ways, and the Urushi Tsugaru is yet an upward move, refinement, detail and bass tighness.

A couple of things that I tested in present time, the Transparent Gen 5 Plus speaker cables, for me , I still prefer my 1997 era Symo L5 SX cables, from Switzerland and marketed then by Apogee. To me there was no area which the TC betters the Symo and it even lacks the emotion and body produced when using the Symo. Then there is the Jadis PA100 amp, all I can say is that it is the on top of the amplifiers that I have ever had in my entire audio life. In the past there were ARC amps, 1 CJ, 1 VTL, and even a Jadis JA200.
 
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kiwilp

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I am very, very lucky and ecstatic to have received a new Blue Lace w/ diamond cantilever. This extends my experience to a 6th Koetsu. It's still fresh out of the box, now with maybe 5 hours on it from initial testing after setup, and one long late-night listening session - not anywhere near burned in yet. But the experience it provides is so compelling, I felt like writing about it already. My girlfriend also noticed a striking difference in our long listening session; we swapped the Coralstone in-and-out to confirm (Ikeda headshells make it easy). In short, the Coralstone boron I've enjoyed for 2 years (still in the prime of its life thanks to careful use in a multi-cartridge rotation) has been handily dethroned. I'd rate the differences between stones (Onyx, Jade, Coralstone) as "subtle". The difference from Rosewood (RSP) to stone is "moderate", in the favor of stone (most notably in bass). The differences between magnet types alnico vs. platinum is significant, but not all differences favor one type vs the other. The differences between boron and diamond cantilevers seems to also be significant, except this time all in favor of the latter.

Sonic Impressions:
The verdict is clear - this is next level Koetsu sound, by a fair margin, over the Coralstone boron and all other Koetsus I've owned. There's no gray area here - this is the superior Koetsu of my dreams.

The tonal balance is not warm like the Coralstone boron. Nor is it bright - in fact I find it to be smoother and less grating up top on harsh recordings. The sound from top to bottom is crystalline in how pure and cleanly delineated even the most minute details are. There is absolutely no blurring or fuzzing of lines in any way perceptible to the human ear. This level of hyper-detail is normally what I associate with bad sounding, overly high-tech hifi - where the detail actually fights against the musical experience. That's not the case here - music actually flows BETTER than it does on the Coralstone boron; in fact it matches state-of-the-art open reel tape playback in this regard (which I consider to set the bar for world-class sound reproduction, despite my very limited experience enjoying this medium). The extra detail also gets you even more spatial information. The combined effect is that vocals - the strong point of every singe Koetsu every made - here sound like the performer has physically beamed right into your room. It's amazing. Bass impact and volume are about the same between Blue Lace DC and Coralstone boron, but the former is significantly cleaned up, while the latter is a bit bloomy/fuzzy by comparison. Like a lens that was slightly out of focus.

The diamond cantilever upgrade is not diminishing returns, unlike so many expensive pursuits in this hobby. If you've gone this far to purchase a Koetsu stone or RSP, I think it's imperative to stretch the extra bit for the DC (any of the Platinum models, including the Rosewood Platinum, can be upgraded with a DC). It's that much of a difference maker. I'll be doing everything in my power to keep a Koetsu diamond running until I die - I don't drive a fancy car, eat fine cuisine, or travel for exotic vacations; this is the only luxury I care for and pursue! This is now one of 5 "blow me away" moments in the lifetime of my audiophile hobby (two of which were headphones and don't count towards 2ch; the other to being first hearing a Tannoy dual-concentric and the other being my move from digital to vinyl), and this was the most impressive given it was performed over the incredible Coralstone boron.

System:
Tannoy Canterbury GR
Rogue Audio Apollo Dark tube monoblocks
Audio Research Reference 6 preamp
VAC Renaissance SE phono stage
EAR MC-3 SUT
Clearaudio Master Innovation table w/ Clearaudio ring clamp, Stillpoints Ultra SS and LPI
Critical Mass Systems Maxxum rack
Fidelity Research FR64S arm with Ikeda IT-VTA-06 base
Ikeda IS-2T headshell, Ortofon Japan L800S leads
Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner
Audioquest WEL Signature signal cabling
Audioquest Hurricane PC's


Below pic is from a few weeks ago, pictured with Coralstone boron. I also swapped out the old Fidelity Research B-60 for the Ikdea IT-VTA-06 base at the time I installed the Blue Lace. The new Ikeda base tightens up a lot better than the vintage B-60!
Hi, beautiful setup! What is the reason you use a SUT when you have such a good MC phonostage? My understanding was they were not necessary so I would love to know your thoughts.
Cheers
Matt.
 
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mulveling

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Hi, beautiful setup! What is the reason you use a SUT when you have such a good MC phonostage? My understanding was they were not necessary so I would love to know your thoughts.
Cheers
Matt.
Thanks Matt. The thing is, the VAC actually has a SUT built-in to handle the MC stage. This then feeds into the tube MM stage. I choose to bypass the internal SUT because I feel there are better SUT matches for my Koetsu cartridges (I prefer Bob's Devices Sky, EAR MC-3, and the Koetsu SUT). The built-in SUT is Lundahl LL1931 - which do pair very nicely with my Shelter Harmony on a 2nd arm. The downside of using the outboard SUT is the extra interconnect - which is VERY sensitive to capacitance and overall cable quality in this slot - and sometimes difficulty fighting off hum noise (grounding schemes). But the optimal matching of SUT to cartridge is crucial at this level, so I find it worth the downsides.

Many tube phono stages use this internal SUT "trick" to handle MC. Usually the maker of the circuity does not also make the SUT (EAR is an exception here). Some others use a JFET MC stage into tube MM. And a few stages use all tube active stages for both MC and MM (e.g. Aesthetix), but this is a VERY hard trick to pull off due to noise and the difficulty in sourcing quiet enough tubes for the MC stage.

Overall, I love my VAC phono stage and am very grateful to have it. I think they simply nail the MM tube stage; it's magic.
 
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kiwilp

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Thanks Matt. The thing is, the VAC actually has a SUT built-in to handle the MC stage. This then feeds into the tube MM stage. I choose to bypass the internal SUT because I feel there are better SUT matches for my Koetsu cartridges (I prefer Bob's Devices Sky, EAR MC-3, and the Koetsu SUT). The built-in SUT is Lundahl LL1931 - which do pair very nicely with my Shelter Harmony on a 2nd arm. The downside of using the outboard SUT is the extra interconnect - which is VERY sensitive to capacitance and overall cable quality in this slot - and sometimes difficulty fighting off hum noise (grounding schemes). But the optimal matching of SUT to cartridge is crucial at this level, so I find it worth the downsides.

Many tube phono stages use this internal SUT "trick" to handle MC. Usually the maker of the circuity does not also make the SUT (EAR is an exception here). Some others use a JFET MC stage into tube MM. And a few stages use all tube active stages for both MC and MM (e.g. Aesthetix), but this is a VERY hard trick to pull off due to noise and the difficulty in sourcing quiet enough tubes for the MC stage.

Overall, I love my VAC phono stage and am very grateful to have it. I think they simply nail the MM tube stage; it's magic.

Good to know, cheers! What is the thinking regarding gain requirements for an Urushi? My Zesto Andros phono has 67dB which seems to be fine....
 

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