KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Folsom]

Real life is quite loud...distortion in playback makes things seem much louder than they really are. Horns relatively less so and thus you can listen closer to live sounds without "sounding" like it. The fatigue from listening comes more from the distortion and not just listening loud. When I recorded my ex (playing a real, honest to goodness Strad) in my apartment the pressure waves from that made my ears pulsate! It was loud but clear and amazing!

Bad noise control from the power supply/AC is typically the worst offender of making fatiguing sound. But I've found certain polyester caps can pack it on, too. Here's a good visual of why that might be. (personally I think the shots on the scope, while supposedly too small to matter, exactly represent typical cap sounds) Also I've heard too many exotic parts sound rather fatiguing with some gear (weird capacitors, wire, etc) - that goes for SS and Tubes. I've heard many painful tube amps, and many SS amps that I couldn't tolerate. In some cases a single power cord is enough to make me want to turn off a stereo.

Tests show speakers with less distortion tend to be less offensive over time, but that's kind of tentative... purchase patterns and claims don't necessarily show that. And more so low distortion speakers may really make a painful stereo shine bright like mad.

 

[bonzo75]

It's a well known fact around the world that they exhibit distortion. People like it, and that's just fine.

Who said I like tonally grey? You? You wouldn't know.

Your videos and lack of experience with sets, over emphasis on theory. You should at least listen to some before continuing to make systems. This theoretical measurement debate gets boring

 

[sujay]

It's intermodulation distortion.

Current Magico, YG, even Harbeth have reduced it to a massive degree using higher order elliptical crossovers. There is no solution for it on single driver speakers... it's impossible for a single driver to resolve clearly like a multi-way speaker can on complex music.

Agree. My limited experience supports this. The moment one starts playing complex music like classical and some rock, the single driver magic disintegrates. On the other hand, the current top of the line multi drivers are very coherent and play as ‘one voice’ provided the amplification is right. I have experienced this first hand having listened to the YG Sonja with a low powered tube amp Andy then switching over to the Vitus 103. It’s night and day!

 

[bonzo75]

Agree. My limited experience supports this. The moment one starts playing complex music like classical and some rock, the single driver magic disintegrates. On the other hand, the current top of the line multi drivers are very coherent and play as ‘one voice’ provided the amplification is right. I have experienced this first hand having listened to the YG Sonja with a low powered tube amp Andy then switching over to the Vitus 103. It’s night and day!

Which single drivers are you referring to?

 

[213Cobra]

>>Current Magico, YG, even Harbeth have reduced it to a massive degree using higher order elliptical crossovers. There is no solution for it on single driver speakers... it's impossible for a single driver to resolve clearly like a multi-way speaker can on complex music.<<

This is dated thinking. Granted, most FRDs aren't implemented to refute this, but some are. High order "elliptical" crossovers impose their own problems. Any advantage the over-resolved multi-way might have for the hungry-ear audiophile is more than negated by the damage said crossover does to holistic sound. I've heard all the multi-drivers contenders. They are all wanting. You have to actually make a more sustained effort to hear today's best FRD-based speakers.

Phil

 

[Folsom]

Your videos and lack of experience with sets, over emphasis on theory

Uhuh... so some poor videos define how I like tone? When I've explicitly said they don't reflect the tone of what I'm recording?

I've heard a number of SET's, and I don't even recall what all of them have been because I don't keep track of stuff I can't stand. Good ones are about as rare as good SS. Most of the time they're ear bleeders, the polar opposite of bland SS.

 

[Folsom]

Your videos and lack of experience with sets, over emphasis on theory. You should at least listen to some before continuing to make systems. This theoretical measurement debate gets boring

Theory? What THEORY? I have a little of my own, but in general I post almost exclusively about factual matters. It's not my fault people can't stand the reality of what words describe what attributes.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I was going to generally agree to the idea that wide-banders often seem to struggle with more complex large scale music but then reconsidered as this might be just too generalised. Clearly there are some exceptional single driver implementations and the reports and consistent descriptions of the General’s system are regularly great and especially with classical and jazz by accounts.

But I was thinking more about the Zu references initially and agree wholeheartedly with Marc’s earlier comments on classical being not at all a strength for them which is very much what I have heard with Zu.

In 2011 over the course of a year I listened at length to four different models of Zu’s driven at times with Audion, Manley, Modwright and Bakoon amps and always either high quality vinyl or digi systems. The immediate quality of openness that comes with a dynamic crossoverless speaker was always the Zu’s most immediate attraction... but it was always how they played classical that made me just want to pass on buying them.

Al’s recent reports in having been able to get his Reference 3As to scale up and happily do large scale classical keeps my mind open on this wrt to this speaker species, though for me it’s moot as I am utterly happy with my current speakers in the arena of playing classical (especially after a bit of modifying the horns) they are all now beyond exceptional in this.

 

[bonzo75]

I was going to generally agree to the idea that wide-banders often seem to struggle with more complex large scale music but then reconsidered as this might be just too generalised. Clearly there are some exceptional single driver implementations and the reports and consistent descriptions of the General’s system are regularly great and especially with classical and jazz by accounts.

But I was thinking more about the Zu references initially and agree wholeheartedly with Marc’s earlier comments on classical being not at all a strength for them which is very much what I have heard with Zu.

In 2011 over the course of a year I listened at length to four different models of Zu’s driven at times with Audion, Manley, Modwright and Bakoon amps and always high quality either vinyl or digi systems. The quality of openness that comes with a dynamic crossoverless speaker was always the Zu’s most immediate attraction... but how they played classical was what made me just want to pass on buying them.

Btw Al’s recent reports in having been able to get his Reference 3As to scale up and happily do large scale classical keeps my mind open on this but am utterly happy with all my current speakers in this regard.

Thanks that confirms what I heard at Marc's before he moved though one day I will visit him to try again provided he doesn't push me into that moat next to his house

 

[213Cobra]

>>In 2011 over the course of a year I listened at length to four different models of Zu’s driven at times with Audion, Manley, Modwright and Bakoon amps and always high quality either vinyl or digi systems.<<

While I don't agree with your assessment, 2011 was eight...almost nine...years ago. The world -- and Zu -- has spun forward since then. Plus who knows what else was inhibiting those systems. It takes some tweaking to get classical music right on Zu, but it's there to be had.

Phil

 

[the sound of Tao]

>>In 2011 over the course of a year I listened at length to four different models of Zu’s driven at times with Audion, Manley, Modwright and Bakoon amps and always high quality either vinyl or digi systems.<<

While I don't agree with your assessment, 2011 was eight...almost nine...years ago. The world -- and Zu -- has spun forward since then. Plus who knows what else was inhibiting those systems. It takes some tweaking to get classical music right on Zu, but it's there to be had.

Phil

Not agreeing with assessments isn’t an issue... I get that you love them for their strengths but I struggle with your assessment on their capacity with classical.

The guy where I heard two of the different Zus later replaced the Zus with horns and strangely then there was absolutely nothing inhibiting the system at all. Extraordinary generally and equally great on classical as well.

 

[213Cobra]

Not agreeing with assessments isn’t an issue... I get that you love them for their strengths but it is equally why I struggle with your assessment on their capacity with classical.

The guy where I heard two of the different Zus later then replaced the Zus with horns and strangely then there was nothing inhibiting the system at all. Extraordinary generally and absolutely great on classical in fact.

Which Zu speakers?

I'd have to know more about associated amplification, etc. There is no reason Zu Definitions can't be equipped to reproduce classical music convincingly. he single FRD Zu speakers? Different matter entirely, but still can be more than acceptable. I'd have to know more about what you perceived as lacking to comment specifically.

Phil

 

[the sound of Tao]

Thanks that confirms what I heard at Marc's before he moved though one day I will visit him to try again provided he doesn't push me into that moat next to his house

This is what moats are for... resolving all audiophile issues with a summer dip.

 

[Folsom]

>>Current Magico, YG, even Harbeth have reduced it to a massive degree using higher order elliptical crossovers. There is no solution for it on single driver speakers... it's impossible for a single driver to resolve clearly like a multi-way speaker can on complex music.<<

This is dated thinking. Granted, most FRDs aren't implemented to refute this, but some are. High order "elliptical" crossovers impose their own problems. Any advantage the over-resolved multi-way might have for the hungry-ear audiophile is more than negated by the damage said crossover does to holistic sound. I've heard all the multi-drivers contenders. They are all wanting. You have to actually make a more sustained effort to hear today's best FRD-based speakers.

Phil

Have you ever got to play with adjusting the feedback on the amplifier powering Magicos? I think you might find it rather interesting how much the sound goes in and out of being holistic. I'm not saying you'll like the sound, but it plays such a huge factor that I think it's pretty hard to just blame the crossover (or drivers, or box) as the sole reason for what you hear. As the distortion of the speaker becomes even more dominate, we start to hear the differences in the driver, and maybe largely (or entirely) the way their patterns work.

This is where different types of crossovers tend to fight the result you'll get, where maybe an amp might make a low order speaker not sound too much different, and a higher order one sound a lot more different. I would assert that it has to do with the way the drivers propagate waves (radiation pattern) on top of different characteristics for different drivers. This factor has given a pattern for Keith, where lower order crossover speakers sound more cohesive to him. But any way you spin, in general, we are often quick to exchange lower distortion for keeping a consistent sound. We're annoyingly sensitive to hearing these differences... It's sorta sad in a way, because lower distortion often has benefits, but we can't use them if the sound is so torn apart across the spectrum.

The part about waves propagation is my own theory (Ked).

BTW I don't think FRD's are that great. The high frequencies are rarely tolerable. They're tilted without a crossover, and with one they aren't "pure". They need baffle step correction. And even worse is the fact that the high frequencies get bounced by the low ones (the cone literally slaps them). While they can be fun, I can't sit in front of them nearly as long as other speakers. The best ones I've heard were bipolar so they didn't need BSC, and they used less excursion... (excursion is the enemy) It's probably wise to go as large as possible (15") and bipolar in a large room, with a roll off starting around where the room gain starts. Maybe I'll make some, some day.

 

[morricab]

But you like higher distortion stereos....

I disagree about brass, brass can hurt my ears sometimes.

Since the listener is the final arbiter of sound quality and not an oscilloscope, then the absolute measured distortion is not nearly as important as the content of that distortion.

My Daughter is now learning to play trumpet...doesn't hurt my ears even up close ...but it can be quite loud this is for sure.

 

[Folsom]

I was going to generally agree to the idea that wide-banders often seem to struggle with more complex large scale music but then reconsidered as this might be just too generalised. Clearly there are some exceptional single driver implementations and the reports and consistent descriptions of the General’s system are regularly great and especially with classical and jazz by accounts.

The General's are in horns that help reduce the movement of the cone, to prevent the problems that single drivers have (other than often bad FR). That's another approach that works decently well. It's funny though, it makes small drivers into huge speakers.

 

[morricab]

No, your assumption, due to lack of experience, is that SETs and valves cause distortion as compared to that tonally grey gear you like

Well, they do make comparatively higher distortion for a given output...until you get to low power where they have about the same distortion but it is nearly all low order harmonics, which are essentially invisible to the ear at those levels.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Which Zu speakers?

I'd have to know more about associated amplification, etc. There is no reason Zu Definitions can't be equipped to reproduce classical music convincingly. he single FRD Zu speakers? Different matter entirely, but still can be more than acceptable. I'd have to know more about what you perceived as lacking to comment specifically.

Phil

Phil this was 8 years ago... I told you the amps, VPI and Monaco turntables which I remember because they were good, remember at least druids and could have been omens but seriously I have forgotten the models names and there is a reason for that. My mate sold them for exactly this limited capacity to play more complex music, Marc regularly attests to it and hats off to him for all the effort he has put in to work on this and his openness about the issue. You are the only person I have ever read claiming that Zus were all good at classical. I’m happy you are happy with them. That’s all that counts really.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Phil, I think you're not consistent w yr own logic there. You're saying xover based multi driver spkrs were poor in 2011, and have come no further fwd. And you were a fan of Zu in 2011. So, any comparison in 2011 would have been totally valid to reinforce yr view.

 

[Folsom]

Since the listener is the final arbiter of sound quality and not an oscilloscope, then the absolute measured distortion is not nearly as important as the content of that distortion.

My Daughter is now learning to play trumpet...doesn't hurt my ears even up close ...but it can be quite loud this is for sure.

I'm still going to call it by what it is, because well done nomenclature helps us all avoid wasting time.

You may notice I have perhaps never actually called distortion a bad thing on this forum... Maybe I have, but I try to be explicit about when it constitutes *bad*.

Either way, this is me right now.