KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

Legolas

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Heard them twice...agree with Ex Libris
My initial impression hearing them at Hifi Deluxe 2018, and coming from the Audio Note room before it, was, ahh, some detail and soundstage. Nice.

But after 10 minutes the fizz fizz of the upper treble began to irritate me. A bit like treble emphasis on some DS DACs, I was looking for the exit.

It can hear it's potential, pinpoint imaging and 3D soundstage. But it is not their yet IMO. It also seems to lack much body and lower bass. So good on vocal and small ensemble material, not so much on others.

I have to say, horn speakers done right float my boat, especially after Munich and the AC room.
 

assessor43

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I find it interesting that after reading this thread I virtually see nothing written about the Harbeths. The Harbeth 40.1 may be the best speaker I have heard and that includes all panels and horns. I cannot remember hearing a speaker that sounds so right. Maybe early Quads come close in some ways.
 
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KeithR

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Sorry gents, have been traveling in europe and no time for a proper post. Short of it was that I was quite impressed- big, open, dynamic sound with excellent presence that didn’t have the horn coloration or handoff problems that some horn designs have. The Nagra 300b didn’t sound like any 300b I’ve heard before. A Siltech preamp was used.

On the criticism side, felt the system lacked a bit of warmth (maybe tube rolling would do it) and that the big horns don’t disappear or at least in that room. I’ll have some additional thoughts on that when I return to the States tomorrow.
 

Al M.

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Sorry gents, have been traveling in europe and no time for a proper post. Short of it was that I was quite impressed- big, open, dynamic sound with excellent presence that didn’t have the horn coloration or handoff problems that some horn designs have. The Nagra 300b didn’t sound like any 300b I’ve heard before. A Siltech preamp was used.

On the criticism side, felt the system lacked a bit of warmth (maybe tube rolling would do it) and that the big horns don’t disappear or at least in that room. I’ll have some additional thoughts on that when I return to the States tomorrow.

This sounds very promising. I am only afraid that once you get more body (lower midrange) in the tonal balance, a bit of the dreaded 'cupped hands' coloration may reappear.

So I personally would be hesitant to buy such speakers until I have heard them with proper tonal balance.
 

PeterA

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Do horn speakers respond to positioning in ways similar to typical box/cone speakers, or is it very different? I have found that with my speakers, it is very difficult to ascribe a sound to them because the slightest changes in position, tilt, toe-in, spacing, and distance from front wall, can fairly dramatically change the sound as perceived from the listening chair. This may even override the signature of cables and electronics. Room treatment seems to also make quite a difference.

We collectively are pretty quick to separate out what we think a speaker "sounds" like when we audition it, but do we really fully consider how the room and set up contribute to what we are hearing? Over time, I have learned to be much less quick to describe the "sound" of a speaker.

I have observed something similar in Mayfloyd's and Al M.'s systems. Room changes, treatment changes, and speaker positioning changes have dramatically altered the sound of their systems over the years that I have listened to them. Gear changes have influenced the sound too, but I am finding that I increasingly question the relative importance of gear versus set up. In the end, I realize that it all matters, but my thoughts about how much each part contributes to the whole sound are changing over time.

Perhaps horns have sonic properties that are more influential to the sound than do speakers like mine. I don't really know.
 
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Folsom

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Peter, horns interact with the room a lot less. But that's also why they are not soundstage monsters.
 

spiritofmusic

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Keith, too bad you missed the chance to hear the Duos optimally set up at Blue58. You may still have drawn a mixed conclusion, but you would certainly have heard Duos really singing in his room.
 

bonzo75

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This sounds very promising. I am only afraid that once you get more body (lower midrange) in the tonal balance, a bit of the dreaded 'cupped hands' coloration may reappear.

So I personally would be hesitant to buy such speakers until I have heard them with proper tonal balance.

So Keith who was worried about cupped hands doesn't hear it on the duos, Ron who was worried about it does not hear it on Cessaros, and Bill who was worried about it does not hear it on the General's.

So I guess a lot of people who haven't heard various horns were worried that most horns had cupped hands till they heard horns that didn't. And the others who haven't heard horns think the cup exists because of a lot of forum posts referring to it.

This is the first I heard it happens due to the lower body'
 
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Al M.

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So Keith who was worried about cupped hands doesn't hear it on the duos, Ron who was worried about it does not hear it on Cessaros, and Bill who was worried about it does not hear it on the General's.

So I guess a lot of people who haven't heard various horns were worried that most horns had cupped hands till they heard horns that didn't. And the others who haven't heard horns think the cup exists because of a lot of forum posts referring to it.

This is the first I heard it happens due to the lower body'

I haven't heard 'cupped hands' on Volti Rivals either, so I don't think it's necessarily inherent to horns. Interestingly, Keith hears the horn coloration on Voltis, so go figure.

I was just sounding a note of caution, that's all.
 

bonzo75

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I haven't heard 'cupped hands' on Volti Rivals either, so I don't think it's necessarily inherent to horns. Interestingly, Keith hears the horn coloration on Voltis, so go figure.

I was just sounding a note of caution, that's all.

I agree on caution on tone. I didn't mean to quote only you I would have liked to quote the many who keep referring to "dreaded cupped hands". There are many other issues with horns that makes ideal horn search difficult
 

Audiophile Bill

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I haven't heard 'cupped hands' on Volti Rivals either, so I don't think it's necessarily inherent to horns. Interestingly, Keith hears the horn coloration on Voltis, so go figure.

I was just sounding a note of caution, that's all.

I am particularly averse to the cupped colouration on some horns so understand your caution.
 

christoph

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So Keith who was worried about cupped hands doesn't hear it on the duos, Ron who was worried about it does not hear it on Cessaros, and Bill who was worried about it does not hear it on the General's.

So I guess a lot of people who haven't heard various horns were worried that most horns had cupped hands till they heard horns that didn't. And the others who haven't heard horns think the cup exists because of a lot of forum posts referring to it.

This is the first I heard it happens due to the lower body'

Reverendo heard absolutely no cupped hands on my hORNS Universums.
That to his very big surprise ;)
 

the sound of Tao

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Reverendo heard absolutely no cupped hands on my hORNS Universums.
That to his very big surprise ;)
Reverendo gave your universums the blessing! I’d love to hear the Universums.

There’s so much great horn out there that living with the dreaded cupped hands seems to be very avoidable these days. Not sure if it comes from changes in driver and or horn design and materials.

Also happy to report that only clapped hands and no cupped hands with the Pap... otherwise they’d not still be around here.
 

DaveC

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There's massive amounts of info on diyaudio about horn colorations, some huge threads if anyone wants to spend hours and hours reading about it. :)

It's too much and probably too boring and off topic to go on about, but the one thing I'd say is if it doesn't bother you I think the brain tends to disregard it after a while, kind of like how you get used to smells after a short time. I think that's how some live with horns that have more coloration, but if it bothers you from the start it's probably not going to happen for you. Some colorations are more "benign" than others.

IMO all horns have some amount of coloration, it's unavoidable. This is why horn material is so important, it's audible. That's why Cessaro has composite horns filled with some sort of damping fluid, they go through extremes to reduce it. Wood tends to sound decent, and composite materials like fiberglass seem to work well too, but they do sound different. I have composite horns, and when I coated them with a few cans of plastidip to damp them it was audible.

However, boxes are audible too, some worse than others... the baffle shape effects the response of the speaker to a large degree, modern speaker simulators can model this easily, it's in all the books, etc... and the material the box is made out of is audible (YG, Magico, Wilson and others may claim different, but they go to extremes to deal with it). Stats have frame and membrane audibility issues. So, I think it's not only horns that have these types of design considerations.
 

Al M.

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There's massive amounts of info on diyaudio about horn colorations, some huge threads if anyone wants to spend hours and hours reading about it. :)

It's too much and probably too boring and off topic to go on about, but the one thing I'd say is if it doesn't bother you I think the brain tends to disregard it after a while, kind of like how you get used to smells after a short time. I think that's how some live with horns that have more coloration, but if it bothers you from the start it's probably not going to happen for you. Some colorations are more "benign" than others.

IMO all horns have some amount of coloration, it's unavoidable. This is why horn material is so important, it's audible. That's why Cessaro has composite horns filled with some sort of damping fluid, they go through extremes to reduce it. Wood tends to sound decent, and composite materials like fiberglass seem to work well too, but they do sound different. I have composite horns, and when I coated them with a few cans of plastidip to damp them it was audible.

However, boxes are audible too, some worse than others... the baffle shape effects the response of the speaker to a large degree, modern speaker simulators can model this easily, it's in all the books, etc... and the material the box is made out of is audible (YG, Magico, Wilson and others may claim different, but they go to extremes to deal with it). Stats have frame and membrane audibility issues. So, I think it's not only horns that have these types of design considerations.

Yes, there are no speakers without colorations. With box speakers what extraordinarily bothers me is a "boxy" sound. This is one of the reasons why I have been attracted to monitors since a long time, they tend to not sound "boxy" due to their smaller cabinet (even though I once heard a really small monitor that was egregious in that respect). My previous Reference 3A monitors had cabinet colorations that were easily discernible in direct comparison with my current top level Reference 3A monitors (even though listened to by themselves they were not clearly obvious), but these cabinet colorations were never "boxy". With large floor standers a "boxy" sound is much harder to avoid, even though some designs succeed astonishingly well. I do understand, however, when some audiophiles hate box speakers. But as you say, even electrostats have colorations.
 

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