Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

[PeterA]

I have compared the three Ching Cheng power cords in the front end of my system to three expensive fancy audiophile power cords. I prefer the Ching Chengs.

They do not sound veiled in my system compared to those other three. In fact the fancy chords all added a coloration to the sound. This is a highly contentious topic and many people disagree, but that was my experience in my system.

I am not claiming anything special about the Ching Chengs or that they are the best available. I’m just saying I like the sound in my own system.

 

[PeterA]

Perhaps you are hearing a synergy with your amps and the Ching Chengs, does not necessarily mean that the Ching Chengs are not veiled, just means that in your room and your system, you are unable to hear that aspect.
If you like them in your system, that's all that matters..but I would keep an open mind that there is more out there that you are missing...just saying.

Welcome to the forum Wookiee.

My amps are not using the Ching Chengs. My front end components are: two power supplies for my phono stage and preamp and my motor controller for my turntable.

I appreciate the advice. Thank you very much. Is your mind open to the possibility that the Ching Chengs are actually pretty good power cords?

I am open minded and did try three different fancy power cords and lived with one of them for years. They all imparted the same coloration. And it was not only in my system I’ve done the direct comparisons in my friend’s system as well. He uses stock power cords for all his components.

I’m sure there is always more out there that I am missing. You can say that about everything. We do what we are interested in doing and then we Move On. For now I have moved on. I am more interested in a discussion about what’s happening in the wall and the power delivery to the system.

I have closed the power cord chapter for now.

 

[Tango]

[QUOTE="PeterA, post: 623702, member: 2106"I appreciate the advice. Thank you very much. Is your mind open to the possibility that the Ching Chengs are actually pretty good power cords?......

I’m sure there is always more out there that I am missing. You can say that about everything. We do what we are interested in doing and then we Move On. For now I have moved on. I am more interested in a discussion about what’s happening in the wall and the power delivery to the system.

I have closed the power cord chapter for now.[/QUOTE]


+100
If there is anymore openminded people than Peter in this forum, then it is me.

Ching Cheng does annoy people. Part of this is because ddk introduced it. But if one cannot get pass ddk, where is that open mind then?

 

[bazelio]

Count me in the group of those who found Ching Cheng to be veiled. I won't postulate too much as to why different people would achieve different results. Perhaps listening for different things, different types of music, etc. But the CC's for me tended towards an overly smooth, somewhat dynamically flat, and a less detailed presentation than I prefer. They work great for me as a power cord for the DC motor controller of my TT however.

As to the merits of power cords in general, feel free to debate your theories. I don't intend to engage. I think if you can't hear a difference in your system and in your room, that's great. One less thing to obsess over in this obsessive hobby. Other people can hear clear differences, and even site power cords as a first order consideration - that is, one that should be prioritized earlier than others when assembling a system (presumably in an incremental fashion over time). There isn't a right or one-size-fits-all answer here. The original post tries to generalize the topic too much.

 

[microstrip]

The manual of the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, version 1, states in the list of DAC connections:

9 Power Cord.
Plug the end of the supplied IEC cord in here. You can also use fancy audiophile types, but they won’t really do anything—what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?

(End quote.)

What say ye? What would be an argument against such technical reasoning?

(I assume the opinion can be attributed to engineer Mike Moffat since he is the designer of the DAC.)

Al M.,

Well, it looks you never read the excellent summary in six points that our members from Shunyata have discussed several times in WBF. I am not going to re-write them, but the argument you present is so poor and written in such a vulgar style that does not encourage a proper debate.

Everything is fancy in our hobby. Unfortunately most people are not able to promote the fancies they like without denigrating others.

Edit. Just read Tim post after posting mine. It is exactly what he refers, all equipment generates noise and injects it in the mains.

 

[microstrip]

Welcome to the forum Wookiee.

My amps are not using the Ching Chengs. My front end components are: two power supplies for my phono stage and preamp and my motor controller for my turntable.

I appreciate the advice. Thank you very much. Is your mind open to the possibility that the Ching Chengs are actually pretty good power cords?

I am open minded and did try three different "fancy" power cords and lived with one of them for years. They all imparted the same coloration. And it was not only in my system I’ve done the direct comparisons in my friend’s system as well. He uses stock power cords for all his components.

I’m sure there is always more out there that I am missing. You can say that about everything. We do what we are interested in doing and then we Move On. For now I have moved on. I am more interested in a discussion about what’s happening in the wall and the power delivery to the system.

I have closed the power cord chapter for now.

Do you consider that trying just three fancy power cables is being open minded? Since you write they all impart the same coloration we could conclude they all suppress some kind of noise you enjoy but allow you to see an existing coloration in your system.

Sorry but I can not consider that someone who posts in a power cable thread can say the has closed that chapter, particularly when he says interested in a discussion about what’s happening in the wall and the power delivery to the system!

 

[PeterA]

Do you consider that trying just three fancy power cables is being open minded? Since you write they all impart the same coloration we could conclude they all suppress some kind of noise you enjoy but allow you to see an existing coloration in your system.

Sorry but I can not consider that someone who posts in a power cable thread can say the has closed that chapter, particularly when he says interested in a discussion about what’s happening in the wall and the power delivery to the system!

Fransisco, you may not consider me very open minded. That is fine. In the last few months, my system has undergone some fairly significant changes, and the resulting sound is quite different. I move rather slowly and deliberately. I have for years. My signature at the end of this post has not changed much over the years. Based on your signature, you have much more experience swapping out gear in your own system, and as a result, probably know much more than I. I have enjoyed reading about your many turntables and amplifiers.

Here is a brief description of the power cords I've had in my system: Until recently, I used Transparent wires and power products. I tried a couple of others, just recently, but I would rather not mention names. I tried MIT before that, and I owned Harmonic Technology for a long time before that. After all of these power cords, six by my count, including my stock cords that came with the gear, I am currently using some Ching Chengs. My amps have for more than fifteen years been connected directly to the panel via JPS Labs In Wall cable and Furutech IEC plugs, no outlets or power cords.

You are free to conclude what you want about what I heard from these fancy power cords connected to my three front end components in my rack. If you think I heard a suppression of some kind of noise that I enjoy, or that they allowed me to see, er, hear an existing coloration in my system, that is fine.

Here is what I actually heard in my system from one of the power cords when hooked up to my preamp first, and then to my phono stage. It is similar to what I heard from my Transparents and the others. From my listening notes and what I sent to a friend:

"The sound is a more focused sound, a more vivid image against a more black background. The sound was more tight and controlled. Bass more prominent. But highs have a slight synthetic quality to them. The sound is more stark with higher contrast but less shading and nuance. It is a more "hifi" sound, and less natural. Some people like this: It is more focused and vivid and in some areas, more detailed. But I find it less real sounding. I used to like that sound, but that was before I heard or appreciated the trade offs. I now value a different sound. Harmonic content, an open airy sound were diminished by this cord in my system."

So, I heard trade offs. If there was noise suppression going on, it seemed to also rob the sound of nuance, harmonics, and information. Are the Ching Chengs colored? Perhaps. Is my system colored, perhaps. But, the fancy cords all did something similar, which I did not like. As I wrote, I used to like the blacker backgrounds and starker images. A bolder sound. I have heard this same character elsewhere with fancy cords. In the end, it is about what I think sounds best in my own system. I happen to think what sounds best is what sounds more real to me, in my room, from my music collection. That is also controversial. So be it.

Oh, I almost forgot: I actually wrote this: "I have closed the power cord chapter for now." Fransicsco, you edited out the "for now" part. Sorry, but that omission on your part significantly changes the meaning of what I said. Can I ask you to quote me more accurately? For now, I am moving onto other things, listening to music mostly. Power cords, and their effects in my system do not interest me at the moment. Perhaps I will reinvestigate some time in the future.

 

[BlueFox]

I find these power cord discussions interesting. Personally, I found that ‘better’ power cords made an audible improvement over the stock power cords. Adding three separate AC lines along with better AC cords also improved the sound. While cords from different manufacturers might make a subtle difference I am perfectly happy with my current sound, and have no desire to experiment.

 

[Folsom]

Peter, I think Francisco is bothered by the word “coloration” because your description doesn’t really at any point describe how most use the word “coloration”. It’s not even close to most descriptions of coloration except maybe in the higher frequencies. But really the highs you’re describing would be mono-timbre that has a synthetic quality.

The CC’s most certainly have an effect. But the effect is even across the board, so it comes across in a way where all of these users are pleased with the lack of attention drawn to any specific part of the sound. And really maybe they tame overbearing sound of a lot of gear? I wouldn’t personally try to call them neutral, but if they give you what sounds neutral then, and you want that, they’re the biggest bargain in audio. Why fight it? If you like it, you like it.

On the flip side audiophile cables don’t always make sense. There’s plenty of bizarro-nonsense cables. But if you find one you love don’t fight it.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I think Francisco is bothered by the word “coloration” because your description doesn’t really at any point describe how most use the word “coloration”. It’s not even close to most descriptions of coloration except maybe in the higher frequencies. But really the highs you’re describing would be mono-timbre that has a synthetic quality.

The CC’s most certainly have an effect. But the effect is even across the board, so it comes across in a way where all of these users are pleased with the lack of attention drawn to any specific part of the sound. And really maybe they tame overbearing sound of a lot of gear? I wouldn’t personally try to call them neutral, but if they give you what sounds neutral then, and you want that, they’re the biggest bargain in audio. Why fight it? If you like it, you like it.

On the flip side audiophile cables don’t always make sense. There’s plenty of bizarro-nonsense cables. But if you find one you love don’t fight it.

That may well be the case, Folsom. I really don't know. Thank you for your comments. All I'm saying is that I've tried a bunch and like what I have. Sure, there may be better out there. Some would say definitely there are. What I find interesting is that the stuff I've tried all sounded similar to me. Not identical, but similar traits across a limited number of systems. I'm not claiming to have much experience.

It's kind of interesting that this thread is suddenly about CC power cords. People dismiss them which is fine. I was hoping that some designers might join the discussion and explain what was brought up in the OP or even explain why their cords are better than the Ching Cheng or other stock cords.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Count me in the group of those who found Ching Cheng to be veiled. I won't postulate too much as to why different people would achieve different results. Perhaps listening for different things, different types of music, etc. But the CC's for me tended towards an overly smooth, somewhat dynamically flat, and a less detailed presentation than I prefer. They work great for me as a power cord for the DC motor controller of my TT however.

As to the merits of power cords in general, feel free to debate your theories. I don't intend to engage. I think if you can't hear a difference in your system and in your room, that's great. One less thing to obsess over in this obsessive hobby. Other people can hear clear differences, and even site power cords as a first order consideration - that is, one that should be prioritized earlier than others when assembling a system (presumably in an incremental fashion over time). There isn't a right or one-size-fits-all answer here. The original post tries to generalize the topic too much.

Bazelio, how ironic. Dave extols the virtues of CC. But the one place he'll say it has zero benefit is the tt psu.

You're saying you don't hear much benefit from CC...except on yr tt.

 

[Al M.]

Al M.,
I am not going to re-write them, but the argument you present is so poor and written in such a vulgar style that does not encourage a proper debate.

Everything is fancy in our hobby. Unfortunately most people are not able to promote the fancies they like without denigrating others.

Gosh, really? Can't you appreciate the refreshing lack of nauseating political correctness of the quote in my opening post? Everyone is so sensitive these days.

 

[Al M.]

Francisco, I apologize. Not everyone needs to like the tone of that quote.

On the other hand, I think there is too much reverence in this hobby. And Mike Moffat, the presumed author of the quote, refreshingly pokes through that.

BTW, you have not convinced me that his argument is poor. I don't quite buy the Shunyata argument, and Mike Moffat is an engineer too, and a brilliant one I might add, as proven by his Yggdrasil DAC.

 

[microstrip]

Fransisco, you may not consider me very open minded. That is fine. In the last few months, my system has undergone some fairly significant changes, and the resulting sound is quite different. I move rather slowly and deliberately. I have for years. My signature at the end of this post has not changed much over the years. Based on your signature, you have much more experience swapping out gear in your own system, and as a result, probably know much more than I. I have enjoyed reading about your many turntables and amplifiers.

Here is a brief description of the power cords I've had in my system: Until recently, I used Transparent wires and power products. I tried a couple of others, just recently, but I would rather not mention names. I tried MIT before that, and I owned Harmonic Technology for a long time before that. After all of these power cords, six by my count, including my stock cords that came with the gear, I am currently using some Ching Chengs. My amps have for more than fifteen years been connected directly to the panel via JPS Labs In Wall cable and Furutech IEC plugs, no outlets or power cords.

You are free to conclude what you want about what I heard from these fancy power cords connected to my three front end components in my rack. If you think I heard a suppression of some kind of noise that I enjoy, or that they allowed me to see, er, hear an existing coloration in my system, that is fine.

Here is what I actually heard in my system from one of the power cords when hooked up to my preamp first, and then to my phono stage. It is similar to what I heard from my Transparents and the others. From my listening notes and what I sent to a friend:

"The sound is a more focused sound, a more vivid image against a more black background. The sound was more tight and controlled. Bass more prominent. But highs have a slight synthetic quality to them. The sound is more stark with higher contrast but less shading and nuance. It is a more "hifi" sound, and less natural. Some people like this: It is more focused and vivid and in some areas, more detailed. But I find it less real sounding. I used to like that sound, but that was before I heard or appreciated the trade offs. I now value a different sound. Harmonic content, an open airy sound were diminished by this cord in my system."

So, I heard trade offs. If there was noise suppression going on, it seemed to also rob the sound of nuance, harmonics, and information. Are the Ching Chengs colored? Perhaps. Is my system colored, perhaps. But, the fancy cords all did something similar, which I did not like. As I wrote, I used to like the blacker backgrounds and starker images. A bolder sound. I have heard this same character elsewhere with fancy cords. In the end, it is about what I think sounds best in my own system. I happen to think what sounds best is what sounds more real to me, in my room, from my music collection. That is also controversial. So be it.

Oh, I almost forgot: I actually wrote this: "I have closed the power cord chapter for now." Fransicsco, you edited out the "for now" part. Sorry, but that omission on your part significantly changes the meaning of what I said. Can I ask you to quote me more accurately? For now, I am moving onto other things, listening to music mostly. Power cords, and their effects in my system do not interest me at the moment. Perhaps I will reinvestigate some time in the future.

Peter,

I never quoted you, I wrote a fact valid in the time scale of the thread - IMHO we are not writing audio history, just casually debating occasional feelings. Apologies if you feel stressed on it.

You insist on calling "fancy" power cables to engineered power cables developed by experts who spent a lifetime developing them - we have some of them in this forum and I use such types of cable. I can't see a sign of an open mind on such nomenclature. As can be expected from non technical people in these matters, all you present are your opinions (" In the end, it is about what I think sounds best in my own system. I happen to think what sounds best is what sounds more real to me, in my room, from my music collection. That is also controversial. So be it.") (quoting you).

BTW, I regret that the tone of this thread was tailored by the first post - an extremely basic and misleading statement on cables. It will be hard to have a proper debate on wall cabling after such unfortunate start.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, I apologize. Not everyone needs to like the tone of that quote.

On the other hand, I think there is too much reverence in this hobby. And Mike Moffat, the presumed author of the quote, refreshingly pokes through that.

BTW, you have not convinced me that his argument is poor. I don't quite buy the Shunyata argument, and Mike Moffat is an engineer too, and a brilliant one I might add, as proven by his Yggdrasil DAC.

Al,

You are the one transferring a technical debate to reverence and your private feelings about your own gear. The Shunyata arguments are explained elsewhere with great technical detail, anyone wanting to understand this subject must be prepared to accept that, for example, converting AC to DC always generates noise and noise affects sound quality in stereo in not easily predictable ways. Remember that some of our scientific measuring equipment comes with engineered cables and we are supposed to use it.

As always some people deserve reverence, others not so much. I try to establish my boundaries using my experience and my technical knowledge, you probably do the same.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

I never quoted you, I wrote a fact valid in the time scale of the thread - IMHO we are not writing audio history, just casually debating occasional feelings. Apologies if you feel stressed on it.

You insist on calling "fancy" power cables to engineered power cables developed by experts who spent a lifetime developing them - we have some of them in this forum and I use such types of cable. I can't see a sign of an open mind on such nomenclature.

No worries, Fransisco, I am not easily stressed out. Here is a quote from later in the same post in which I must have forgotten to use the word "fancy". I'll try to describe them as audiophile power cords, or similar, in the future.

Power cords, and their effects in my system do not interest me at the moment. Perhaps I will reinvestigate some time in the future.

 

[bonzo75]

Now that trophies and points have all been given out, everyone's fighting

 

[unfairlane]

I got my eyes opened back in the 90`s when Per Abrahamsen, Electrocompaniet allowed me to buy the last 30ft of their famous old powercord. I had to promise though not to use it for just that because it was not legal anymoore.

This cable was built up by 8x17awg solid core copper conductors (a lot like Nordost`s Odin) where three conductors went to each phase and two to ground. This cable was a jawdrop compared to a stock powercord. What an eyeopener! It was like swapping to a much bigger and better amp, everything was improved by a mile.

After a while I started thinking of what I`ve just experienced, wondering what caused this big change. Could it be so simple that..? I had to try a norwegian12awg Romex equivalent, just to see if my idea held water. And it did, swapping from this 3x17awg solid copper pr. pole into 1x12awg pr. pole was a new jump up in performance, my amp really showed muscles now.

Since then I`ve tryed out a lot of powercords, friends used to bring pc`s they`ve loaned home to my system to compare them to mine. It was never a close call, no stranded wire delivers like a solid.

And yes, going solid will improve your power a bit even if you have stranded att the way to the outlet. But a dedicated solid audio course will give the best result.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Since then I`ve tryed out a lot of powercords, friends used to bring pc`s they`ve loaned home to my system to compare them to mine. It was never a close call, no stranded wire delivers like a solid. (...)

Gary Koh wrote some very interesting posts on power cables in WBF years ago, explaining the why's of his power cables. Unfortunately his power cables are too stiff to get CE certification and we can't try them in Europe.

 

[Al M.]

Al,

You are the one transferring a technical debate to reverence and your private feelings about your own gear.

Haha, not reverence when that gear is called Shit .