Network Improvements and their Impact on Sound Quality

wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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wil,
AFAIK, all Extreme owners so far reported improvements with the ER when using it as a 1000Mbps switch (A-side only).
You have NO speed restrictions when you do NOT cross the moat.

Matt
I
Yes, but this unused tech(B-side) is actually reducing SQ and the ER is anyway one of the least expensive "audiophile" switches around. The SotM, Melco and Telegartner are much more expensive.

Matt
I guess the point I'm stuck on is if the eR is only used from the A side it's not really an "audiophile" switch. Their entire design is built around going A to B or B to A. The Sonore OM, which I suppose we could call an "audiophile FMC" seems like a better choice if, for instance, you're using the eR as an A side FMC. As for just using the eR as an A side copper switch, I wonder if it's any better than a Cisco 2960.
 

matthias

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2019
1,226
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Germany
I guess the point I'm stuck on is if the eR is only used from the A side it's not really an "audiophile" switch. Their entire design is built around going A to B or B to A. The Sonore OM, which I suppose we could call an "audiophile FMC" seems like a better choice if, for instance, you're using the eR as an A side FMC. As for just using the eR as an A side copper switch, I wonder if it's any better than a Cisco 2960.

I understand your POV.
The ER uses on the A-side the same HQ voltage regulators as on the B-side. IMO, see the ER as a "black box" and compare it vs both more and less expensive switches. Both Roy and Emile found it superior to the SotM. A very interesting comparison would be vs the Ubiquiti. If you use the ER as FMC only the OM might be the better sounding choice.

Matt
 
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romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
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363
One other switch to consider is the Melco S100 as reported on by @hols and @CKKeung and others. This is the final switch I have been interested in auditioning and I have it now:




This switch actually belongs to @seeteeyou and is the same switch that @hols, @austinpop, @nenon, and perhaps others have evaluated and so this switch is well traveled from Japan to Hong Kong, Chicago, Austin (Texas), and now the Sierra Nevada foothills of northern California. This switch can tell some stories, lol.



I actually have a second Melco switch (a Buffalo that uses the exact same board as the Melco that was modded by @nenon) that was sent to me courtesy of @austinpop which has allowed me to evaluate the impact of 2 of these switches. While there are subtle differences between the 2, for my practical purposes, I find them to be equivalent and so I will refer to them as one in this report.

I also presently have a Sonore opticalModule on loan:



I decided to also try an alternative SFP, this time a wide-temperature 10G model from Finisar to compare against the MGB-TLX SFP from planetechusa.com that has been my reference since early February:



I currently have 6 switches on hand in addition to the EdgeRouter and SB8200 modem (and so 8 network devices). Powering each one properly was a challenge but I managed to apply either an SR7 or SR4 rail to each device. In each instance, a better power supply made a significant difference, much larger than differences between Ethernet cabling.

As for the impact of 6 network switches, through repeated addition and subtraction of each switch, it was easy to hear each switch's individual impact. Much has been said about applying your best switch last (closest to your server) but to my ears, the impact of the 1st switch is no less than the impact of the last switch. It's as if the character imposed by the switch on the signal is forever embedded into the signature and this signature can be modulated in some way by subsequent switches but not removed. I'm confident that if I had 10 or 20 switches in series, they would each contribute something. In my case, combining all 6 switches did not provide a net positive.

Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal. With the etherRegen, for example, there is this famous moat that is advertised but once you cross the moat, the output stage of this switch will have its own signature based on the properties of the chipset, clock, resistors, capacitors, PCB traces, dielectric coefficient of the PCB, etc. It turns out network equipment is also prone to considerable EMI emissions that if not properly contained, can significantly impact surrounding components (i.e. other switches and worse, your DAC). As a proof of concept, I entered the "B" side of the eR so as to utilize its moat. I then connected the SFP side of the eR to the SFP side of the Melco. If the eR's moat already is providing supreme isolation, then why is the Melco altering the sound further (and for the better)? This is why I say each switch must be imprinting its own signature and that if you decide to place even 100 switches in your chain, each switch will continue to alter the sound.

I presently do not have the M12 Gold in my possession but I will have it again soon. That switch is just too good not to own and I really miss it. Presently, I have the equivalent of 2 Melco S100s, 2 SOtM sNH-10Gs, an etherRegen, and an oM. To my ears, it almost doesn't matter what order you have them in. If I have the sNH-10G in the first position or the last, I can hear it's qualities quite easily. It offers the best depth of any of the switches I have heard but it also imparts a certain thinness. This thinness was never a problem with my previous servers but it is not a quality I can accept with the Extreme and so I will be moving on from it. For some time now, the etherRegen has been functioning as an FMC in my system as I do not prefer its "B" side with the Extreme. I believe many Extreme owners feel the same way. The eR provides nice body and when powered well, excellent dynamics and liveliness, especially with the MGB-TLX SFPs from planetechusa.com. The oM performs similarly, maybe slightly better and for less money but ultimately, what either the eR or oM offers pale in comparison to what the Melco S100 offers and do not offer the resolution of the Melco. The Melco S100 is very obviously the superior switch to my ears and while this is mostly likely system dependent, dual Melco S100s are even better and so I see my final network configuration finally starting to take shape.

What the Melco S100 offers that no other switch can offer to the same degree is sound staging, dynamics, and fullness. While I do not presently have the M12 Gold in my possession, there is no doubt in my mind it cannot compete with the Melco when it comes to these qualities. With 2 of them in series and when powered by SR7 rails, even at low listening volumes, the dynamics and fullness of the midbass and midrange are just incredible. They are behaving literally like active gain stages but in the digital domain. Moreover, it's not "one note" bass, it's very well defined bass with excellent bass texture that is especially appreciated when listening to a solo cello or double bass. The sound stage and air is also beyond any switch I have heard. With complex large orchestral music, you really get a better sense of the dimensions of the venue. The SOtM comes close and provides better depth and detail delicacy but again sounds thin. In comparison, the eR and oM sound flat and add nothing to what the S100 already brings. My eR will now be retired as well.

Based on the balance of qualities I seek, for now, my anticipated network will look as follows:

SB8200 modem > copper > EdgeRouter > copper > Melco/Buffalo > copper > M12 Gold > copper > Melco/Buffalo > fiber > Extreme.

For my preferences, fiber needs to be somewhere and I prefer it straight to the Extreme and yes, the quality of copper Ethernet cabling still makes a significant difference. As for the SFPs, the more expensive Finisars did not sound as good as the MBG-TLX from planetechusa.com.

Consider the above as one person's perspective. Obviously, YMMV.
 
Last edited:

matthias

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2019
1,226
545
213
Germany
One other switch to consider is the Melco S100 as reported on by @hols and @CKKeung and others. This is the final switch I have been interested in auditioning and I have it now:




This switch actually belongs to @seeteeyou and is the same switch that @hols, @austinpop, @nenon, and perhaps others have evaluated and so this switch is well traveled from Japan to Hong Kong, Chicago, Austin (Texas), and now the Sierra Nevada foothills of northern California. This switch can tell some stories, lol.



I actually have a second Melco switch (a Buffalo that uses the exact same board as the Melco that was modded by @nenon) that was sent to me courtesy of @austinpop which has allowed me to evaluate the impact of 2 of these switches. While there are subtle differences between the 2, for my practical purposes, I find them to be equivalent and so I will refer to them as one in this report.

I also presently have a Sonore opticalModule on loan:



I decided to also try an alternative SFP, this time a wide-temperature 10G model from Finisar to compare against the MGB-TLX SFP from planetechusa.com that has been my reference since early February:



I currently have 6 switches on hand in addition to the EdgeRouter and SB8200 modem (and so 8 network devices). Powering each one properly was a challenge but I managed to apply either an SR7 or SR4 rail to each device. In each instance, a better power supply made a significant difference, much larger than differences between Ethernet cabling.

As for the impact of 6 network switches, through repeated addition and subtraction of each switch, it was easy to hear each switch's individual impact. Much has been said about applying your best switch last (closest to your server) but to my ears, the impact of the 1st switch is no less than the impact of the last switch. It's as if the character imposed by the switch on the signal is forever embedded into the signature and this signature can be modulated in some way by subsequent switches but not removed. I'm confident that if I had 10 or 20 switches in series, they would each contribute something. In my case, combining all 6 switches did not provide a net positive.

Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal. With the etherRegen, for example, there is this famous moat that is advertised but once you cross the moat, the output stage of this switch will have its own signature based on the properties of the chipset, clock, resistors, capacitors, PCB traces, dielectric coefficient of the PCB, etc. It turns out network equipment is also prone to considerable EMI emissions that if not properly contained, can significantly impact surrounding components (i.e. other switches and worse, your DAC). As a proof of concept, I entered the "B" side of the eR so as to utilize its moat. I then connected the SFP side of the eR to the SFP side of the Melco. If the eR's moat already is providing supreme isolation, then why is the Melco altering the sound further (and for the better)? This is why I say each switch must be imprinting its own signature and that if you decide to place even 100 switches in your chain, each switch will continue to alter the sound.

I presently do not have the M12 Gold in my possession but I will have it again soon. That switch is just too good not to own and I really miss it. Presently, I have the equivalent of 2 Melco S100s, 2 SOtM sNH-10Gs, an etherRegen, and an oM. To my ears, it almost doesn't matter what order you have them in. If I have the sNH-10G in the first position or the last, I can hear it's qualities quite easily. It offers the best depth of any of the switches I have heard but it also imparts a certain thinness. This thinness was never a problem with my previous servers but it is not a quality I can accept with the Extreme and so I will be moving on from it. For some time now, the etherRegen has been functioning as an FMC in my system as I do not prefer its "B" side with the Extreme. I believe many Extreme owners feel the same way. The eR provides nice body and when powered well, excellent dynamics and liveliness, especially with the MGB-TLX SFPs from planetechusa.com. The oM performs similarly, maybe slightly better and for less money but ultimately, what either the eR or oM offers pale in comparison to what the Melco S100 offers and do not offer the resolution of the Melco. The Melco S100 is very obviously the superior switch to my ears and while this is mostly likely system dependent, dual Melco S100s are even better and so I see my final network configuration finally starting to take shape.

What the Melco S100 offers that no other switch can offer to the same degree is sound staging, dynamics, and fullness. While I do not presently have the M12 Gold in my possession, there is no doubt in my mind it cannot compete with the Melco when it comes to these qualities. With 2 of them in series and when powered by SR7 rails, even at low listening volumes, the dynamics and fullness of the midbass and midrange are just incredible. They are behaving literally like active gain stages but in the digital domain. Moreover, it's not "one note" bass, it's very well defined bass with excellent bass texture that is especially appreciated when listening to a solo cello or double bass. The sound stage and air is also beyond any switch I have heard. With complex large orchestral music, you really get a better sense of the dimensions of the venue. The SOtM comes close and provides better depth and detail delicacy but again sounds thin. In comparison, the eR and oM sound flat and add nothing to what the S100 already brings. My eR will now be retired as well.

Based on the balance of qualities I seek, for now, my anticipated network will look as follows:

SB8200 modem > copper > EdgeRouter > copper > Melco/Buffalo > copper > M12 Gold > copper > Melco/Buffalo > fiber > Extreme.

For my preferences, fiber needs to be somewhere and I prefer it straight to the Extreme and yes, the quality of copper Ethernet cabling still makes a significant difference. As for the SFPs, the more expensive Finisars did not sound as good as the MBG-TLX from planetechusa.com.

Consider the above as one person's perspective. Obviously, YMMV.

Hi Roy,

great report, thank you:)

Which ports did you use with the Melco, 1Gbps or 100Mbps?

Thanks again

Matt
 
Last edited:

Rhapsody

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Jan 16, 2013
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Rhapsody.Audio
One other switch to consider is the Melco S100 as reported on by @hols and @CKKeung and others. This is the final switch I have been interested in auditioning and I have it now:




This switch actually belongs to @seeteeyou and is the same switch that @hols, @austinpop, @nenon, and perhaps others have evaluated and so this switch is well traveled from Japan to Hong Kong, Chicago, Austin (Texas), and now the Sierra Nevada foothills of northern California. This switch can tell some stories, lol.



I actually have a second Melco switch (a Buffalo that uses the exact same board as the Melco that was modded by @nenon) that was sent to me courtesy of @austinpop which has allowed me to evaluate the impact of 2 of these switches. While there are subtle differences between the 2, for my practical purposes, I find them to be equivalent and so I will refer to them as one in this report.

I also presently have a Sonore opticalModule on loan:



I decided to also try an alternative SFP, this time a wide-temperature 10G model from Finisar to compare against the MGB-TLX SFP from planetechusa.com that has been my reference since early February:



I currently have 6 switches on hand in addition to the EdgeRouter and SB8200 modem (and so 8 network devices). Powering each one properly was a challenge but I managed to apply either an SR7 or SR4 rail to each device. In each instance, a better power supply made a significant difference, much larger than differences between Ethernet cabling.

As for the impact of 6 network switches, through repeated addition and subtraction of each switch, it was easy to hear each switch's individual impact. Much has been said about applying your best switch last (closest to your server) but to my ears, the impact of the 1st switch is no less than the impact of the last switch. It's as if the character imposed by the switch on the signal is forever embedded into the signature and this signature can be modulated in some way by subsequent switches but not removed. I'm confident that if I had 10 or 20 switches in series, they would each contribute something. In my case, combining all 6 switches did not provide a net positive.

Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal. With the etherRegen, for example, there is this famous moat that is advertised but once you cross the moat, the output stage of this switch will have its own signature based on the properties of the chipset, clock, resistors, capacitors, PCB traces, dielectric coefficient of the PCB, etc. It turns out network equipment is also prone to considerable EMI emissions that if not properly contained, can significantly impact surrounding components (i.e. other switches and worse, your DAC). As a proof of concept, I entered the "B" side of the eR so as to utilize its moat. I then connected the SFP side of the eR to the SFP side of the Melco. If the eR's moat already is providing supreme isolation, then why is the Melco altering the sound further (and for the better)? This is why I say each switch must be imprinting its own signature and that if you decide to place even 100 switches in your chain, each switch will continue to alter the sound.

I presently do not have the M12 Gold in my possession but I will have it again soon. That switch is just too good not to own and I really miss it. Presently, I have the equivalent of 2 Melco S100s, 2 SOtM sNH-10Gs, an etherRegen, and an oM. To my ears, it almost doesn't matter what order you have them in. If I have the sNH-10G in the first position or the last, I can hear it's qualities quite easily. It offers the best depth of any of the switches I have heard but it also imparts a certain thinness. This thinness was never a problem with my previous servers but it is not a quality I can accept with the Extreme and so I will be moving on from it. For some time now, the etherRegen has been functioning as an FMC in my system as I do not prefer its "B" side with the Extreme. I believe many Extreme owners feel the same way. The eR provides nice body and when powered well, excellent dynamics and liveliness, especially with the MGB-TLX SFPs from planetechusa.com. The oM performs similarly, maybe slightly better and for less money but ultimately, what either the eR or oM offers pale in comparison to what the Melco S100 offers and do not offer the resolution of the Melco. The Melco S100 is very obviously the superior switch to my ears and while this is mostly likely system dependent, dual Melco S100s are even better and so I see my final network configuration finally starting to take shape.

What the Melco S100 offers that no other switch can offer to the same degree is sound staging, dynamics, and fullness. While I do not presently have the M12 Gold in my possession, there is no doubt in my mind it cannot compete with the Melco when it comes to these qualities. With 2 of them in series and when powered by SR7 rails, even at low listening volumes, the dynamics and fullness of the midbass and midrange are just incredible. They are behaving literally like active gain stages but in the digital domain. Moreover, it's not "one note" bass, it's very well defined bass with excellent bass texture that is especially appreciated when listening to a solo cello or double bass. The sound stage and air is also beyond any switch I have heard. With complex large orchestral music, you really get a better sense of the dimensions of the venue. The SOtM comes close and provides better depth and detail delicacy but again sounds thin. In comparison, the eR and oM sound flat and add nothing to what the S100 already brings. My eR will now be retired as well.

Based on the balance of qualities I seek, for now, my anticipated network will look as follows:

SB8200 modem > copper > EdgeRouter > copper > Melco/Buffalo > copper > M12 Gold > copper > Melco/Buffalo > fiber > Extreme.

For my preferences, fiber needs to be somewhere and I prefer it straight to the Extreme and yes, the quality of copper Ethernet cabling still makes a significant difference. As for the SFPs, the more expensive Finisars did not sound as good as the MBG-TLX from planetechusa.com.

Consider the above as one person's perspective. Obviously, YMMV.

Hi Roy,

Wow!!! GREAT analysis.

One observation you made was that adding certain pieces was like adding gain stages. That crystalized what I have been hearing. I could not put my finger on it verbally, but that has been my experience. It is like adding gain stages, BUT not too much gain, no clipping etc, but definitely a boost in overall gain and that results in heightened listening pleasure for sure.

Thank you VERY MUCH for sharing with us all. Invaluable, to say the least. Very much appreciated.
 
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kswanson27

Well-Known Member
Nov 21, 2018
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One other switch to consider is the Melco S100 as reported on by @hols and @CKKeung and others. This is the final switch I have been interested in auditioning and I have it now:




This switch actually belongs to @seeteeyou and is the same switch that @hols, @austinpop, @nenon, and perhaps others have evaluated and so this switch is well traveled from Japan to Hong Kong, Chicago, Austin (Texas), and now the Sierra Nevada foothills of northern California. This switch can tell some stories, lol.



I actually have a second Melco switch (a Buffalo that uses the exact same board as the Melco that was modded by @nenon) that was sent to me courtesy of @austinpop which has allowed me to evaluate the impact of 2 of these switches. While there are subtle differences between the 2, for my practical purposes, I find them to be equivalent and so I will refer to them as one in this report.

I also presently have a Sonore opticalModule on loan:



I decided to also try an alternative SFP, this time a wide-temperature 10G model from Finisar to compare against the MGB-TLX SFP from planetechusa.com that has been my reference since early February:



I currently have 6 switches on hand in addition to the EdgeRouter and SB8200 modem (and so 8 network devices). Powering each one properly was a challenge but I managed to apply either an SR7 or SR4 rail to each device. In each instance, a better power supply made a significant difference, much larger than differences between Ethernet cabling.

As for the impact of 6 network switches, through repeated addition and subtraction of each switch, it was easy to hear each switch's individual impact. Much has been said about applying your best switch last (closest to your server) but to my ears, the impact of the 1st switch is no less than the impact of the last switch. It's as if the character imposed by the switch on the signal is forever embedded into the signature and this signature can be modulated in some way by subsequent switches but not removed. I'm confident that if I had 10 or 20 switches in series, they would each contribute something. In my case, combining all 6 switches did not provide a net positive.

Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal. With the etherRegen, for example, there is this famous moat that is advertised but once you cross the moat, the output stage of this switch will have its own signature based on the properties of the chipset, clock, resistors, capacitors, PCB traces, dielectric coefficient of the PCB, etc. It turns out network equipment is also prone to considerable EMI emissions that if not properly contained, can significantly impact surrounding components (i.e. other switches and worse, your DAC). As a proof of concept, I entered the "B" side of the eR so as to utilize its moat. I then connected the SFP side of the eR to the SFP side of the Melco. If the eR's moat already is providing supreme isolation, then why is the Melco altering the sound further (and for the better)? This is why I say each switch must be imprinting its own signature and that if you decide to place even 100 switches in your chain, each switch will continue to alter the sound.

I presently do not have the M12 Gold in my possession but I will have it again soon. That switch is just too good not to own and I really miss it. Presently, I have the equivalent of 2 Melco S100s, 2 SOtM sNH-10Gs, an etherRegen, and an oM. To my ears, it almost doesn't matter what order you have them in. If I have the sNH-10G in the first position or the last, I can hear it's qualities quite easily. It offers the best depth of any of the switches I have heard but it also imparts a certain thinness. This thinness was never a problem with my previous servers but it is not a quality I can accept with the Extreme and so I will be moving on from it. For some time now, the etherRegen has been functioning as an FMC in my system as I do not prefer its "B" side with the Extreme. I believe many Extreme owners feel the same way. The eR provides nice body and when powered well, excellent dynamics and liveliness, especially with the MGB-TLX SFPs from planetechusa.com. The oM performs similarly, maybe slightly better and for less money but ultimately, what either the eR or oM offers pale in comparison to what the Melco S100 offers and do not offer the resolution of the Melco. The Melco S100 is very obviously the superior switch to my ears and while this is mostly likely system dependent, dual Melco S100s are even better and so I see my final network configuration finally starting to take shape.

What the Melco S100 offers that no other switch can offer to the same degree is sound staging, dynamics, and fullness. While I do not presently have the M12 Gold in my possession, there is no doubt in my mind it cannot compete with the Melco when it comes to these qualities. With 2 of them in series and when powered by SR7 rails, even at low listening volumes, the dynamics and fullness of the midbass and midrange are just incredible. They are behaving literally like active gain stages but in the digital domain. Moreover, it's not "one note" bass, it's very well defined bass with excellent bass texture that is especially appreciated when listening to a solo cello or double bass. The sound stage and air is also beyond any switch I have heard. With complex large orchestral music, you really get a better sense of the dimensions of the venue. The SOtM comes close and provides better depth and detail delicacy but again sounds thin. In comparison, the eR and oM sound flat and add nothing to what the S100 already brings. My eR will now be retired as well.

Based on the balance of qualities I seek, for now, my anticipated network will look as follows:

SB8200 modem > copper > EdgeRouter > copper > Melco/Buffalo > copper > M12 Gold > copper > Melco/Buffalo > fiber > Extreme.

For my preferences, fiber needs to be somewhere and I prefer it straight to the Extreme and yes, the quality of copper Ethernet cabling still makes a significant difference. As for the SFPs, the more expensive Finisars did not sound as good as the MBG-TLX from planetechusa.com.

Consider the above as one person's perspective. Obviously, YMMV.
I may have missed it in an earlier post but how are you controlling Roon in your system? If with a tablet how are you integrating Wi Fi?
 

nuway

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Jun 26, 2019
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I may have missed it in an earlier post but how are you controlling Roon in your system? If with a tablet how
I may have missed it in an earlier post but how are you controlling Roon in your system? If with a tablet how are you integrating Wi Fi?

In my case, I use a dedicated UAP?AC?LITE with its stock POE adapter and also use an EMO EN-70e isolator between the adapter lan port and the Edgerouter.

Also planning soon to ask a friend in Japan to purchase the M12 gold switch and ask Mark at Sablon to built four M12 cables for a most cost effective solution.
 

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
Hi Roy,

great report, thank you:)

Which ports did you use with the Melco, 1Gbps or 100Mbps?

Thanks again

Matt

I tried both, Matt, and they each have something to offer.

Through the 1Gbps ports, the signature is a bit more forward and direct. There is better control and sounds start and stop more precisely. Decay is shorter but not in an unnatural way. Instrument lines are easier to discern as transients are expressed with greater clarity but surprisingly, dynamic drive is very good both ways. Some might say this presentation is more accurate, especially for orchestral music.

Through the 100Mbps ports, the signature has a velvety smooth and supple presentation but still highly resolved. It is a more idealized sound but still very natural sounding. It is less dry and more ethereal in the treble. Sounds float in air and linger longer. The presentation is less fatiguing. As above, while there is a softness, dynamics is still very good. I could easily see some people preferring this presentation, especially for harsh recordings or when you're just looking to relax or listen for hours.

There is no right or wrong and both presentations have the ability to bring goosebumps. I for one appreciate the option of both presentations.
 

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
I may have missed it in an earlier post but how are you controlling Roon in your system? If with a tablet how are you integrating Wi Fi?

EdgeRouter connects to a wifi access point and to the rest of my network via the SFP port. From there, I use either my phone, tablet, laptop, or PC/Mac to control Roon..
 

moby2004

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2018
163
158
148
One other switch to consider is the Melco S100 as reported on by @hols and @CKKeung and others. This is the final switch I have been interested in auditioning and I have it now:




This switch actually belongs to @seeteeyou and is the same switch that @hols, @austinpop, @nenon, and perhaps others have evaluated and so this switch is well traveled from Japan to Hong Kong, Chicago, Austin (Texas), and now the Sierra Nevada foothills of northern California. This switch can tell some stories, lol.



I actually have a second Melco switch (a Buffalo that uses the exact same board as the Melco that was modded by @nenon) that was sent to me courtesy of @austinpop which has allowed me to evaluate the impact of 2 of these switches. While there are subtle differences between the 2, for my practical purposes, I find them to be equivalent and so I will refer to them as one in this report.

I also presently have a Sonore opticalModule on loan:



I decided to also try an alternative SFP, this time a wide-temperature 10G model from Finisar to compare against the MGB-TLX SFP from planetechusa.com that has been my reference since early February:



I currently have 6 switches on hand in addition to the EdgeRouter and SB8200 modem (and so 8 network devices). Powering each one properly was a challenge but I managed to apply either an SR7 or SR4 rail to each device. In each instance, a better power supply made a significant difference, much larger than differences between Ethernet cabling.

As for the impact of 6 network switches, through repeated addition and subtraction of each switch, it was easy to hear each switch's individual impact. Much has been said about applying your best switch last (closest to your server) but to my ears, the impact of the 1st switch is no less than the impact of the last switch. It's as if the character imposed by the switch on the signal is forever embedded into the signature and this signature can be modulated in some way by subsequent switches but not removed. I'm confident that if I had 10 or 20 switches in series, they would each contribute something. In my case, combining all 6 switches did not provide a net positive.

Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal. With the etherRegen, for example, there is this famous moat that is advertised but once you cross the moat, the output stage of this switch will have its own signature based on the properties of the chipset, clock, resistors, capacitors, PCB traces, dielectric coefficient of the PCB, etc. It turns out network equipment is also prone to considerable EMI emissions that if not properly contained, can significantly impact surrounding components (i.e. other switches and worse, your DAC). As a proof of concept, I entered the "B" side of the eR so as to utilize its moat. I then connected the SFP side of the eR to the SFP side of the Melco. If the eR's moat already is providing supreme isolation, then why is the Melco altering the sound further (and for the better)? This is why I say each switch must be imprinting its own signature and that if you decide to place even 100 switches in your chain, each switch will continue to alter the sound.

I presently do not have the M12 Gold in my possession but I will have it again soon. That switch is just too good not to own and I really miss it. Presently, I have the equivalent of 2 Melco S100s, 2 SOtM sNH-10Gs, an etherRegen, and an oM. To my ears, it almost doesn't matter what order you have them in. If I have the sNH-10G in the first position or the last, I can hear it's qualities quite easily. It offers the best depth of any of the switches I have heard but it also imparts a certain thinness. This thinness was never a problem with my previous servers but it is not a quality I can accept with the Extreme and so I will be moving on from it. For some time now, the etherRegen has been functioning as an FMC in my system as I do not prefer its "B" side with the Extreme. I believe many Extreme owners feel the same way. The eR provides nice body and when powered well, excellent dynamics and liveliness, especially with the MGB-TLX SFPs from planetechusa.com. The oM performs similarly, maybe slightly better and for less money but ultimately, what either the eR or oM offers pale in comparison to what the Melco S100 offers and do not offer the resolution of the Melco. The Melco S100 is very obviously the superior switch to my ears and while this is mostly likely system dependent, dual Melco S100s are even better and so I see my final network configuration finally starting to take shape.

What the Melco S100 offers that no other switch can offer to the same degree is sound staging, dynamics, and fullness. While I do not presently have the M12 Gold in my possession, there is no doubt in my mind it cannot compete with the Melco when it comes to these qualities. With 2 of them in series and when powered by SR7 rails, even at low listening volumes, the dynamics and fullness of the midbass and midrange are just incredible. They are behaving literally like active gain stages but in the digital domain. Moreover, it's not "one note" bass, it's very well defined bass with excellent bass texture that is especially appreciated when listening to a solo cello or double bass. The sound stage and air is also beyond any switch I have heard. With complex large orchestral music, you really get a better sense of the dimensions of the venue. The SOtM comes close and provides better depth and detail delicacy but again sounds thin. In comparison, the eR and oM sound flat and add nothing to what the S100 already brings. My eR will now be retired as well.

Based on the balance of qualities I seek, for now, my anticipated network will look as follows:

SB8200 modem > copper > EdgeRouter > copper > Melco/Buffalo > copper > M12 Gold > copper > Melco/Buffalo > fiber > Extreme.

For my preferences, fiber needs to be somewhere and I prefer it straight to the Extreme and yes, the quality of copper Ethernet cabling still makes a significant difference. As for the SFPs, the more expensive Finisars did not sound as good as the MBG-TLX from planetechusa.com.

Consider the above as one person's perspective. Obviously, YMMV.

Thanks again for this great comparison!
Any differences between the fiber and the copper ports on the Melco ?

Thanks
Alex
 

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
Thanks again for this great comparison!
Any differences between the fiber and the copper ports on the Melco ?

Thanks
Alex

No, other than the typical characteristics of fiber (thinner, quieter, more spacious, and more resolved) and copper (fuller, softer, more intimate, and natural sounding). Because the Melco is so full bodied, the benefits of fiber easily outweigh the usual negatives but you still wouldn't want to overdo fiber.
 

nuway

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2019
117
70
113
58
It's very appreciative that other colleagues take the time to share their experience.
I have taken their experiences and mix them into my systems.
My system benefits more from the extremely low noise the fiber offers all over the path: Edgerouter (planet tech) > fiber to > 1st SOTM switch (PLanet tech) > SOTM cable to > second SOTM switch > fiber to Melco S100 (Startech module) > Sablon Ethernet to> OM with Planet tech > Extreme (Planet tech). The reasons to include the startech modules along with some tweaks at the properties of the Extreme fiber PCI Board make my system sound fuller, natural and with an amazing sound-stage.
 

Johnny Moondog

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2014
71
110
265
One other switch to consider is the Melco S100 as reported on by @hols and @CKKeung and others. This is the final switch I have been interested in auditioning and I have it now:

Thanks again Roy!

I just looked on the Melco website, but their page for locating dealers in the U.S. appears to be locked. Does anyone know where these can be purchased? I'm in California.
 

moby2004

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2018
163
158
148
No, other than the typical characteristics of fiber (thinner, quieter, more spacious, and more resolved) and copper (fuller, softer, more intimate, and natural sounding). Because the Melco is so full bodied, the benefits of fiber easily outweigh the usual negatives but you still wouldn't want to overdo fiber.

Thank you!
By the way there is another potential contender in this growing list of router / switch : Waversa Wrouter which can be used as a switch but also and more interestingly as an “audiophile” router so you can have an entire network built specifically for audiophile reasons.
 

CKKeung

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2011
3,053
3,172
1,410
Hong Kong
It's as if the character imposed by the switch on the signal is forever embedded into the signature and this signature can be modulated in some way by subsequent switches but not removed. I'm confident that if I had 10 or 20 switches in series, they would each contribute something.

In my case, combining all 6 switches did not provide a net positive.
Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal.

Hello Roy,
Thanks for the detailed report.
I particularly agree with you on the above-quoted view!

A switch (or any other components in the CAS network path) is similar to the usual hifi components such as cables, footers ...etc
"Bits are NOT simply Bits."
Each network path components do infuse their own sound signature (or noise pattern?) into the signal.
All of us experienced audiophiles can notice them easily.

Therefore when we are selecting network components, we should NOT care only about the data specifications such as speed, bandwidth ...etc but we have to take into account their sonic signatures.
Similar to when we are mix&matching the various cables in our audio systems.
We have to treat network components as our usual hifi components!
:cool:

I will share with you a few more thoughts in the next posts.
 

CKKeung

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2011
3,053
3,172
1,410
Hong Kong
The Melco S100 is quite interesting.
It is an excellent switch in term of usability and sonic performance.

However, if we examine its circuitry, it's very similar to the two previous "Network Music Switches" launched by Buffalo Japan (the parent company of Melco/Dela) two years ago.
They are :
Buffalo BSL-WS-G2108M/A (https://www.buffalo.jp/product/detail/bsl-ws-g2108m_a.html )
Buffalo BS-G2016A (https://www.buffalo.jp/product/detail/bs-gs2016_a.html )

Many CAS audiophiles in HK bought them and even modded them with linear powersupplies.
However they can never be as good as the Melco S100.

The Melco S100 circuit board is very similar to the BS-G2016A.
Is its superior performance and sound signature due to the much reinforced/improved chassiss and internal components such as plugs and connection/soldering?

If this is the case, this Melco makes the S100 in accordance to the usual audiophile components design & manufacture principles.
:D
 
Last edited:
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CKKeung

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2011
3,053
3,172
1,410
Hong Kong
Actually my audiophile friends and I had a short gathering during the past weekend.

We gathered 5 switches : one M12Gold, one SOtM and two Melco S100 and one EtherRegen!
We originally planned for a big mix&match party!
:p

20200430_170505~2.jpg
20200430_170513~2.jpg
20200430_170523~2.jpg

However our grand plan was disrupted by the recent Roon new build, even though Emile gave us an Extreme update as remedy.
:confused:

When we arrived at the host's music room, the Extreme's performance was much inferior to and diff from before.
Testing the 5 switches would give a very different and unreliable conclusion.

Therefore we just had a casual listen.
Our impressions : some are similar to Romaz's and some are different.
I think this is because of the diff audio system these switches and Extreme were installed in.

BTW all of us worry about the future of Roon very much.
If the Roon Team doesn't put sonic performance one of their top priorities, we will be in big trouble.
Emile has to find an alternative software.
:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Hi-FiGuy

Member Sponsor
Feb 23, 2015
2,235
754
385
Actually my audiophile friends and I had a short gathering during the past weekend.
BTW all of us worry about the future of Roon very much.
If the Roon Team doesn't put sonic performance one of their top priorities, we will be in big trouble.
Emile has to find an alternative software.
:rolleyes:

The same thing happend with Plex, they got to busy with being everything to everyone and completely slammed the door on SQ. I am a lifetime paid member and never use it any more. I hope Roon does not end up there but from rumblings here the pattern is familiar. I am watching this closely.
 

Blackmorec

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2019
747
1,271
213
One other switch to consider is the Melco S100 as reported on by @hols and @CKKeung and others. This is the final switch I have been interested in auditioning and I have it now:




This switch actually belongs to @seeteeyou and is the same switch that @hols, @austinpop, @nenon, and perhaps others have evaluated and so this switch is well traveled from Japan to Hong Kong, Chicago, Austin (Texas), and now the Sierra Nevada foothills of northern California. This switch can tell some stories, lol.



I actually have a second Melco switch (a Buffalo that uses the exact same board as the Melco that was modded by @nenon) that was sent to me courtesy of @austinpop which has allowed me to evaluate the impact of 2 of these switches. While there are subtle differences between the 2, for my practical purposes, I find them to be equivalent and so I will refer to them as one in this report.

I also presently have a Sonore opticalModule on loan:



I decided to also try an alternative SFP, this time a wide-temperature 10G model from Finisar to compare against the MGB-TLX SFP from planetechusa.com that has been my reference since early February:



I currently have 6 switches on hand in addition to the EdgeRouter and SB8200 modem (and so 8 network devices). Powering each one properly was a challenge but I managed to apply either an SR7 or SR4 rail to each device. In each instance, a better power supply made a significant difference, much larger than differences between Ethernet cabling.

As for the impact of 6 network switches, through repeated addition and subtraction of each switch, it was easy to hear each switch's individual impact. Much has been said about applying your best switch last (closest to your server) but to my ears, the impact of the 1st switch is no less than the impact of the last switch. It's as if the character imposed by the switch on the signal is forever embedded into the signature and this signature can be modulated in some way by subsequent switches but not removed. I'm confident that if I had 10 or 20 switches in series, they would each contribute something. In my case, combining all 6 switches did not provide a net positive.

Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal. With the etherRegen, for example, there is this famous moat that is advertised but once you cross the moat, the output stage of this switch will have its own signature based on the properties of the chipset, clock, resistors, capacitors, PCB traces, dielectric coefficient of the PCB, etc. It turns out network equipment is also prone to considerable EMI emissions that if not properly contained, can significantly impact surrounding components (i.e. other switches and worse, your DAC). As a proof of concept, I entered the "B" side of the eR so as to utilize its moat. I then connected the SFP side of the eR to the SFP side of the Melco. If the eR's moat already is providing supreme isolation, then why is the Melco altering the sound further (and for the better)? This is why I say each switch must be imprinting its own signature and that if you decide to place even 100 switches in your chain, each switch will continue to alter the sound.

I presently do not have the M12 Gold in my possession but I will have it again soon. That switch is just too good not to own and I really miss it. Presently, I have the equivalent of 2 Melco S100s, 2 SOtM sNH-10Gs, an etherRegen, and an oM. To my ears, it almost doesn't matter what order you have them in. If I have the sNH-10G in the first position or the last, I can hear it's qualities quite easily. It offers the best depth of any of the switches I have heard but it also imparts a certain thinness. This thinness was never a problem with my previous servers but it is not a quality I can accept with the Extreme and so I will be moving on from it. For some time now, the etherRegen has been functioning as an FMC in my system as I do not prefer its "B" side with the Extreme. I believe many Extreme owners feel the same way. The eR provides nice body and when powered well, excellent dynamics and liveliness, especially with the MGB-TLX SFPs from planetechusa.com. The oM performs similarly, maybe slightly better and for less money but ultimately, what either the eR or oM offers pale in comparison to what the Melco S100 offers and do not offer the resolution of the Melco. The Melco S100 is very obviously the superior switch to my ears and while this is mostly likely system dependent, dual Melco S100s are even better and so I see my final network configuration finally starting to take shape.

What the Melco S100 offers that no other switch can offer to the same degree is sound staging, dynamics, and fullness. While I do not presently have the M12 Gold in my possession, there is no doubt in my mind it cannot compete with the Melco when it comes to these qualities. With 2 of them in series and when powered by SR7 rails, even at low listening volumes, the dynamics and fullness of the midbass and midrange are just incredible. They are behaving literally like active gain stages but in the digital domain. Moreover, it's not "one note" bass, it's very well defined bass with excellent bass texture that is especially appreciated when listening to a solo cello or double bass. The sound stage and air is also beyond any switch I have heard. With complex large orchestral music, you really get a better sense of the dimensions of the venue. The SOtM comes close and provides better depth and detail delicacy but again sounds thin. In comparison, the eR and oM sound flat and add nothing to what the S100 already brings. My eR will now be retired as well.

Based on the balance of qualities I seek, for now, my anticipated network will look as follows:

SB8200 modem > copper > EdgeRouter > copper > Melco/Buffalo > copper > M12 Gold > copper > Melco/Buffalo > fiber > Extreme.

For my preferences, fiber needs to be somewhere and I prefer it straight to the Extreme and yes, the quality of copper Ethernet cabling still makes a significant difference. As for the SFPs, the more expensive Finisars did not sound as good as the MBG-TLX from planetechusa.com.

Consider the above as one person's perspective. Obviously, YMMV.
 

nuway

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2019
117
70
113
58
Hi Mark, @Sablon Audio . Do you have plans to built M12 to M12 and M12 to RJ45 Ethernet cables?. I asked a friend in Japan to purchase and ship to me two M12 Gold switches.
 

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