Does Beethoven need to be "cancelled"?

Ron Resnick

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Dear Members,

If you feel a post is political, please do not hesitate to tell me or one of the moderators. An impermissible political post answered by another impermissible political post almost always causes a thread to devolve. Two opposing political posts do not make a "right"

Thank you.
 
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Folsom

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If you think you can dance to Beethoven... GOOD LUCK TO YOU. Really though why not title it about how we interact with music, instead of an inflammatory political title? Sorry Ron, I expect this thread to be trashed; as it started with politics that's "critical political theory". All in all it just looks like a reason to shit on something good, something special, and water it down into the pathetic sludge VOX swims in.

This is one of those things that takes someone with a kind of malfunction to come up with, to try to elevate their own status - like retro-paradigming old art - by going with contemporary themes that are a result of running out of thoughts in scrambled brains.
 
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bonzo75

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jeff1225

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When I lived in Seattle there was a series of free performances in multiple parks called "Shakespeare in the Park." These performances opened up Shakespeare to a much younger and diverse group of people. Maybe the solution to the decline of the classical audience is to move it out of the concert hall.

https://www.seattleshakespeare.org/
 
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bonzo75

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Classical in concert halls sounds good.

In London the tickets are much cheaper than the US. Still, to go to concerts you need to have student id, be a senior citizen, or have much better income than the average. Especially in relation to movies, concert tickets are too expensive so those not into classical and concerts already won't go.
 

Folsom

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When I lived in Seattle there was a series of free performances in multiple parks called "Shakespeare in the Park." These performances opened up Shakespeare to a much younger and diverse group of people. Maybe the solution to the decline of the classical audience is to move it out of the concert hall.

https://www.seattleshakespeare.org/

They do symphonies outside that are free in some places. When I lived in Missoula is was always a big draw. The issue was they would play stupid pop stuff the whole time so I never cared.

Shakespeare on the campus outside for free was always popular. I however have yet to appreciate Shakespeare and have no issues with saying maybe a woman wrote it all :)
 

PeterA

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I started this thread because I read Tim's comment in the Jeff Day thread and had never heard of the call to "cancel Beethoven". I did a quick search and found the source material and a reaction in a classical music blog. I view this as a relevant topic to discuss in the "classical music" section of the Music forum here on WBF. I learned some interesting stuff about how prior to the 5th Symphony, movements were considered like a collection of short stories, and the 5th was written as a novel. I don't know enough about music history to know if this is actually true, but it is an interesting idea. Did that really lead to the change in when the audience claps? I also found interesting the comments about how the audience's behavior and customs have changed over time.

I apologize if the original title was too provocative. I did not know how else to express my shock at reading the original article. What caught my interest was the need to overlay today's cultural lense on music written some 200 or so years ago and the authors' criticism of arguably one of the greatest composers in the western musical canon. People have written me privately that Beethoven will never be canceled. I suspect not, but I am concerned about how his music and he as a person will be taught in music history classes. I have no doubt that his music will live on in concert halls around the world.

I read with shock the recent cancelation of the very famous European Art History survey course taught by Vincent Scully at Yale University. It was very popular with the students and it presented one interpretation of the foundation of Western art, its origins, its impact, and its masterpieces. My father and brother both took that class 30 years apart. I saw this article as one more reason to be concerned with what I see as a possible trend, that is all.

And I was curious to know if others here had heard about it and what they thought. Thank you Tim for bringing it to my attention. With two daughters in school, I am interested in learning more about what is being taught and more specifically, how art history is being taught. I was an art history major is college before studying architecture. Music, art, and architecture live beyond the lives of those who created them. We should try to better understand these creative forces and their creations rather than try to erase them from history.

Regarding the censorship of the thread and various posts, I would have appreciated a warning in green ink or some other indication that I was in violation of the TOS prior to the shutting down of what I view as a very relevant topic for us music lovers to discuss; a slight diversion from the gear and set up discussions I am usually involved with.
 

montesquieu

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I wouldn't say this is a matter of politics, more a question of breathtaking ignorance. These clowns have all the intellect of a speak-your-weight machine.

Here's a professional cellist's take on the issue - the video clip at the end is the kicker.

https://quillette.com/2020/09/19/then-they-came-for-beethoven/
 
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RogerD

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Just your average twisted opinion du jour. I thought Beethoven was the darling of the modern age,nothing is sacred anymore.
 
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jeff1225

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There is a new outrage machine that blows these odd opinion articles and makes them national news. It is the result of the 24 hour news cycle in the United States. They have to find something for us to be outraged about.
 

RogerD

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Political? nah....my thoughts exactly. This too shall pass away,one can only hope.

"Given Beethoven’s power to inspire, his was the last cultural citadel I expected to see besieged. Yet here we are. Next month, maybe Mozart. Or Bob Dylan. Or Britney Spears. Once we agree to subordinate our love of art to the dictates of joyless ideologues, all of the limits fall away."
 
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PeterA

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This is music that inspires and brings people together. And it is 200 years old and we are still celebrating it. Who are the new Beethoven’s of today and will anyone remember anything that they produce and play it again with new interpretations in the future? Time will tell and hopefully historians will place the composers in historical context but will they try to erase the truly great ones as judged By their influence and longevity?

I remember chaperoning my daughter’s third grade field trip to the Boston symphony orchestra. I remember the teacher telling the class to look up at the crest above the stage in the ornate plaster surround. It was a relief of Beethoven. There was only one and he asked is third graders to think about that and ask themselves why. He told some stories about various composers and his kids were sitting in a bus and excited about going on a field trip.

One shutters to think what these guys in the article would’ve told those nice well-behaved children in the bus eager to learn about this music. On stage someone came out and talked about how much of classical music can be divided between marches and dances. The orchestra then played short samples of one or the other from famous pieces of music and the children understood. That great hall was full of school children from schools all over the region for this special presentation.
 

spiritofmusic

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Classical music was the pop music of its day. Ditto jazz, big band. And its lasted the test of time. If the world exists in 200 years time, or 70 years time, Beethoven and Miles Davis will still be revered, whatever small minded idiots would prefer otherwise. I dont see Stormzy, Billy Eilish or Harry Styles meriting even a footnote.
 

Folsom

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Yeah I am not understanding how the Americans on this forum have only two categories, audio or politics. There is nothing political about this. Nothing related to your constitutional rights either.

Typical foreigner than thinks they know about the US because they watch and read more about our politics than their own. The whole world is a chatty Kathy about the US.

If you don’t see how it’s political than you simply don’t understand how certain minds works, and the games they play.

Could it have been a-political? Yes, but it certainty wasn't aimed that way.
 
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Al M.

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I wouldn't say this is a matter of politics, more a question of breathtaking ignorance. These clowns have all the intellect of a speak-your-weight machine.

Here's a professional cellist's take on the issue - the video clip at the end is the kicker.

https://quillette.com/2020/09/19/then-they-came-for-beethoven/

Thanks for that. Great video, too.

Normally I like Vox, but the article in question is the worst article I have ever read on their website.


Here are much better contributions on Vox about music, actually thrilling:

The most feared song in jazz, explained

Why this awful sounding album is a masterpiece

(Provocative titles for sure, but great videos!)

Here's another one:

That famous cello prelude, deconstructed
 

cjfrbw

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"Liking" Trout Mask Replica was quite fashionable in the day shortly after its release with students at UC Berkeley. I think they liked to drop acid and listen to it, so it was ensconced early on as desirable abstract art.

Has anybody dropped acid and listened to Beethoven? Maybe that would make it sacred to the wokes instead of on the supremacy hit list.
 

spiritofmusic

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Carl, that's immaterial. Beethoven comes before the great post modernist deconstruction of modern society. Therefore its tainted by association w the old guard, and all its imperial faults.
And since Beethoven is the greatest of the great, he's the one that needs to be pulled down the hardest.
It's as simple as that.
God help us all if that's allowed to happen.
 

Al M.

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Carl, that's immaterial. Beethoven comes before the great post modernist deconstruction of modern society. Therefore its tainted by association w the old guard, and all its imperial faults.
And since Beethoven is the greatest of the great, he's the one that needs to be pulled down the hardest.
It's as simple as that.
God help us all if that's allowed to happen.

You worry too much, Marc.
 
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