Anyone compared CAT JL7 versus any Audio Research

Ron Resnick

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RdW

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Thanks knghifi for this reference !:)

Although still a sort of accurate, I guess it comes down how this translates into todays amp offering. What is seems is that ARC is shifting a bit away from there ARC bloom, large soundstage, mid range forward’isch sound with their new Ref 160 models while CAT is staying with their concept with the CL7 described it as a smaller package of their reference amps but with a more convenient tube biasing. Wondering if this will bring the two closer to each other. That also might bring the 2 amps closer.

My current ARC Ref 150 SE got more “reserve” since I have brought the AudioQuest Niagara 5000 in the set-up.
 

bonzo75

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I think in that article Marc generalizes about solid state amps. I certainly preferred the Gamut to the ARC ref 110 on my Martin Logans, and I am usually a valve guy. I owned the ARC, and had compared ARC to Mark Levinson and the Krell Evo directly on the Logans, and had also heard devialet and MSB 200 on the same Logan speaker. At that time, I was not aware of other quality SS amps that I am now, but the Gamut was certainly better than the ARC even on vocals, which is an ARC strength.
 
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caesar

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I am not a fanboy of any brand, meaning I judge everything on its merits.

With that said, CAT would not be my first choice with uber- high efficiency gear, such as horns...I'll take SET with that, thanks you....

but in the USA, where highly inefficient box speakers are the overwhelming popular taste, CAT is the only tube amplifier that can drive them without sounding syrupy...

In fact, tube sound has become defined as syrupy sound in the vast majority of situations... if I'm invited to a guy's house to listen to box speakers driven by tube amps, I politely decline!

With that said, Audio Research can't even drive the Sonus Fiber speakers, designed in the same stable / parent company (recently separated, but when designed, part of the same company and supposed to "work together")... this is easily verified at audio shows .... even arc 750 can't drive their own speakers on rock ... truly pathetic!

Audio research may have been great in the 1970s when SS amps sounded like sh!t, but other than hearing the arc ref 75 with Scaena and with Carl Marchisotto's Nola speakers, both of which sound incredible and are easy to drive, I have never heard ARC amps sound good. Sorry, but they sound more bleached than albino skin...

And recently, Carl Marchisotto, whose livelihood depends on great sound, moved away from ARC to VAC... (VAC sounds syrupy on hard-to-drive box speakers also)...

So stay away from ARC amps unless you have an easy to drive speaker
 

caesar

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As an additional point on the syrupy sound of most tube amps, my understanding is that recently even Myles Astor, a tube guy his whole life, switched from the syrupy sound of CJ tube amps on his Magico to some Swiss SS, and his system now sounds less syrupy and more resolving... if that guy didi it, sounds like checkmate... CAT is the only one positioned to survive
 

Ron Resnick

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As an additional point on the syrupy sound of most tube amps, my understanding is that recently even Myles Astor, a tube guy his whole life, switched from the syrupy sound of CJ tube amps on his Magico to some Swiss SS, and his system now sounds less syrupy and more resolving... if that guy didi it, sounds like checkmate... CAT is the only one positioned to survive


Respectfully, I think you are assuming and concluding more from Myles' switch than is justified by the mere observation of the switch.

I do not know anyone, literally no one, who considers the current generation of c-j amplifiers to exhibit the same syrupy, euphonic sonic attributes of c-j amplifiers from two and three decades ago.

Furthermore, most people I know do not consider ARC or VTL or VAC or BAT tube amplifiers to sound syrupy. And Ralph' Karsten's OTLs and David Berning's ZOTLs are the opposite of syrupy.

Which current production all-tube amplifiers do you consider to sound syrupy?
 

caesar

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Respectfully, I think you are assuming and concluding more from Myles' switch than is justified by the mere observation of the switch.

I do not know anyone, literally no one, who considers the current generation of c-j amplifiers to exhibit the same syrupy, euphonic sonic attributes of c-j amplifiers from two and three decades ago.

Furthermore, most people I know do not consider ARC or VTL or VAC or BAT tube amplifiers to sound syrupy. And Ralph' Karsten's OTLs and David Berning's ZOTLs are the opposite of syrupy.

Which current production all-tube amplifiers do you consider to sound syrupy?

ARC,CJ, BAT, VAC, etc. Everything driving an inefficient box speakers, as I said. :) ... request to play a rock song at an audio show, and these systems embarrass themselves...

Equally sad is that those who don't think the sound of underpowered tube amps driving most box speakers are syrupy . People got acclimated to this syrupy sound and have no clue of what real dynamics are... I am not even gonna talk of listening to live music, as that's not a fair comparison.. I just encourage people to listen to a SET amp driving a horn :)

... sad on many fronts
 
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microstrip

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As an additional point on the syrupy sound of most tube amps, my understanding is that recently even Myles Astor, a tube guy his whole life, switched from the syrupy sound of CJ tube amps on his Magico to some Swiss SS, and his system now sounds less syrupy and more resolving... if that guy didi it, sounds like checkmate... CAT is the only one positioned to survive

It would be great if you could refer to your preferences without denigrating people or brands.
 
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caesar

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It would be great if you could refer to your preferences without denigrating people or brands.

People's time and money are important. Drek must called drek when it's drek.. sorry your feelings are hurt, but people should have all data points when making decisions.
 

microstrip

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People's time and money are important. Drek must called drek when it's drek.. sorry your feelings are hurt, but people should have all data points when making decisions.

Exactly - people should have valid data points, not your biased and poisonous pseudo-syllogisms.

You appreciate CAT - it would be great if you could dazzle this forum with information concerning the brand, people would probably appreciate. But instead you choose to focus on denigrating others.
 
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caesar

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Exactly - people should have valid data points, not your biased and poisonous pseudo-syllogisms.

You appreciate CAT - it would be great if you could dazzle this forum with information concerning the brand, people would probably appreciate. But instead you choose to focus on denigrating others.

Again, sorry your feelings are hurt. If audio research can drive box speakers as dynamically as CAT , I would be the first to congratulate them.

But for anyone looking for dynamics or non-bleached sound, I would encourage them to stay away from most Audio Research models.
 

tima

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He states the conundrum I have personally about OTL amplifiers: incredible crystalline midrange transparency, but is it the sound we actually want to listen to (versus warmer, but slightly fuzzier, output transformer tube amplifiers)?

Some of us do.

Across the frequencies, Atma-Sphere amps put fewer matresses between the princess and her pea.
 

RdW

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I’m driving my TAD CR-1 with an ARC Ref 150 SE. Someone must have forgotten to put a bottle of syrup either in the TADs or in the ARC.

Power supply and interconnects are “massive “ components in the whole set-up as well. And let’s not forget your source. Simply judging on a brand is not really adding a lot to a conversation.

I started this thread because I moved to a new listening room where I felt I might need some more balanced frequency levels between low mid and high. In my current set-up, the mids are to much forward.

Currently, I have Alieno, Trafomatic or TAD on the shortlist. I have let go of the CAT.
 
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dcc

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As an additional point on the syrupy sound of most tube amps, my understanding is that recently even Myles Astor, a tube guy his whole life, switched from the syrupy sound of CJ tube amps on his Magico to some Swiss SS, and his system now sounds less syrupy and more resolving... if that guy didi it, sounds like checkmate... CAT is the only one positioned to survive
Having been at Myles’ place at the time he had the CJ, I don’t recall any syrupy sound at all.
 

caesar

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Having been at Myles’ place at the time he had the CJ, I don’t recall any syrupy sound at all.

Compare that same box speaker system driven by tubes and the same speaker driven by SS, especially on rock or on jazz drum solos....

Tubes driving box speakers does not present realistic dynamics. It;s a truly boring sound. The market has spoken: SS is dominating the market place - guys aren't buying tube gear - because it's a mismatch of technologies...

And also compare the dynamics of box speakers with tubes or SS , to horn speakers driven by SET. The horn / SET technology is much closer to dynamics of REAL MUSIC than even SS driving the popular , inefficient box speakers.

Check out the threads here on Fremer's VAC review or on Mike L. trying Lamm SET on his (semi-efficient) box speakers. Neither of these guys went with tubes in the end...

Unfortunately, most of these tube companies are dying or will be dying with the death of their founders.
 

morricab

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I am not a fanboy of any brand, meaning I judge everything on its merits.

With that said, CAT would not be my first choice with uber- high efficiency gear, such as horns...I'll take SET with that, thanks you....

but in the USA, where highly inefficient box speakers are the overwhelming popular taste, CAT is the only tube amplifier that can drive them without sounding syrupy...

In fact, tube sound has become defined as syrupy sound in the vast majority of situations... if I'm invited to a guy's house to listen to box speakers driven by tube amps, I politely decline!

With that said, Audio Research can't even drive the Sonus Fiber speakers, designed in the same stable / parent company (recently separated, but when designed, part of the same company and supposed to "work together")... this is easily verified at audio shows .... even arc 750 can't drive their own speakers on rock ... truly pathetic!

Audio research may have been great in the 1970s when SS amps sounded like sh!t, but other than hearing the arc ref 75 with Scaena and with Carl Marchisotto's Nola speakers, both of which sound incredible and are easy to drive, I have never heard ARC amps sound good. Sorry, but they sound more bleached than albino skin...

And recently, Carl Marchisotto, whose livelihood depends on great sound, moved away from ARC to VAC... (VAC sounds syrupy on hard-to-drive box speakers also)...

So stay away from ARC amps unless you have an easy to drive speaker

We found the CAT JL2 signature to sound very good but it still fell behind the NAT SE2SE monos...way better than ARC amps of a generation or two ago. The REF220 monos were rather poor sounding (I had a dissatisfying demo with ARC220 monos, REF3se pre amp and Krell cd player on a pair of WB Arc bookshelf speakers and the dealer actually blamed the amps for the poor sound! Later I tried the speakers with a KR Audio VA350i and found that he was indeed correct using the same Krell cd player...he said the preamp and cd player were definitely not to blame).
 

morricab

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I am not a fanboy of any brand, meaning I judge everything on its merits.

With that said, CAT would not be my first choice with uber- high efficiency gear, such as horns...I'll take SET with that, thanks you....

but in the USA, where highly inefficient box speakers are the overwhelming popular taste, CAT is the only tube amplifier that can drive them without sounding syrupy...

In fact, tube sound has become defined as syrupy sound in the vast majority of situations... if I'm invited to a guy's house to listen to box speakers driven by tube amps, I politely decline!

With that said, Audio Research can't even drive the Sonus Fiber speakers, designed in the same stable / parent company (recently separated, but when designed, part of the same company and supposed to "work together")... this is easily verified at audio shows .... even arc 750 can't drive their own speakers on rock ... truly pathetic!

Audio research may have been great in the 1970s when SS amps sounded like sh!t, but other than hearing the arc ref 75 with Scaena and with Carl Marchisotto's Nola speakers, both of which sound incredible and are easy to drive, I have never heard ARC amps sound good. Sorry, but they sound more bleached than albino skin...

And recently, Carl Marchisotto, whose livelihood depends on great sound, moved away from ARC to VAC... (VAC sounds syrupy on hard-to-drive box speakers also)...

So stay away from ARC amps unless you have an easy to drive speaker

CAT regularly drove the German made Ascendo audio speakers (primarily mid-efficiency box speakers...sometimes with quasi ribbon tweeter depending on the model) to great sound at Munich shows. While not best of show it was definitely a high end sound with lots of space and 3d imaging.
 

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