The argument for/against room treatment

sbnx

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I don't understand this either. I have spoken to some audiophiles about adding just a couple of corner traps and their response was concern about it killing the sound. I try to be super polite and understanding and encourage them to at least try. I do admit that once a certain point is reached the room can be overdamped and sound rather dead. I personally crossed this line at one point in my room. But that takes a TON of panels, tube traps, etc. I like the RT60 to be about 0.3. To my ears 0.4 is too acoustically noisy and below 0.25 sounds dead and like the sound is "over there". Although when the RT60 gets below 0.25 the sound is super clean and imaging is top notch. You can hear all the details on the CD. But it doesn't sound like music.
 

Cellcbern

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Maybe those too, my experience is with mastering rooms, the deadliest of which was Sony's in NYC.

david

I don't understand this either. I have spoken to some audiophiles about adding just a couple of corner traps and their response was concern about it killing the sound. I try to be super polite and understanding and encourage them to at least try. I do admit that once a certain point is reached the room can be overdamped and sound rather dead. I personally crossed this line at one point in my room. But that takes a TON of panels, tube traps, etc. I like the RT60 to be about 0.3. To my ears 0.4 is too acoustically noisy and below 0.25 sounds dead and like the sound is "over there". Although when the RT60 gets below 0.25 the sound is super clean and imaging is top notch. You can hear all the details on the CD. But it doesn't sound like music.
Your experience mirrors mine. It is easy to hear when you have overdone absorption.
 

Cellcbern

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One of the fascinating things about my initial (minimal) deployment of ZR Acoustics panels is that they seem to eliminate reflections without reducing air or ambiance. GIK absorber panels in the same positions make the room sound dead. It will be interesting to see if this holds up with the addition of more ZR panels or if at some point they also deaden the room.
 

Cellcbern

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My understanding is that you want to reduce "early" reflections which are those from the wall behind the speakers, and from the sidewall, ceiling, and floor first reflection points because those can arrive at your ears very close to your speakers' direct radiations thereby muddying the sound. In my listening rooms doing so has improved clarity, imaging, and soundstaging. Reflections off of the wall behind the listening position vary in their impact and required treatment depending on how close to the wall you are sitting. If there is sufficient distance between you and the rear wall then the reflections hit your ear after your speakers' direct radiations as reverberation/ambience. I have never had a listening room large enough to have space between the listening position and the rear wall so I have always had to use some absorption on the rear wall. It is also my understanding that while both absorbers and diffusers can be used to tame early reflections, diffusers require more space to work properly - you will not hear their benefit if you are sitting too close to them.
 

Al M.

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My understanding is that you want to reduce "early" reflections which are those from the wall behind the speakers, and from the sidewall, ceiling, and floor first reflection points because those can arrive at your ears very close to your speakers' direct radiations thereby muddying the sound. In my listening rooms doing so has improved clarity, imaging, and soundstaging. Reflections off of the wall behind the listening position vary in their impact and required treatment depending on how close to the wall you are sitting. If there is sufficient distance between you and the rear wall then the reflections hit your ear after your speakers' direct radiations as reverberation/ambience. I have never had a listening room large enough to have space between the listening position and the rear wall so I have always had to use some absorption on the rear wall. It is also my understanding that while both absorbers and diffusers can be used to tame early reflections, diffusers require more space to work properly - you will not hear their benefit if you are sitting too close to them.

My experience is that the space between speakers and front wall (the wall behind the speakers that your eyes are looking at) matters a lot. My speaker drivers are 7 feet from the front wall, and there is lots of window glass. I have covered it with ASC window plugs, also needed in order to sound proof my room from the closely spaced house of my neighbors,, and there is a floor-covering, sound absorbing wool carpet.

With too many reflections, everything has "ambience" and spatial depth, but that is fake, because it's just the room and not the recording. That was the problem that I had before the window plugs and wool carpet; there was spatial "depth" to everything but the driest recordings and things sounded too recessed. Just plain annoying. With too much absorption on the other hand, recorded ambience gets lost partially.

Now I have a happy optimum where the differences in recorded space are maximized. Too much "depth", and everything sounds the same spatially, too much absorption, and you kill ambience.

The rear of the room behind my ears is lively, with some diffusion, but I am sitting quite far from the rear wall, almost 10 feet.

So basically my room follows the live end/dead end model.
 
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PeterA

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There is no room without room treatment. Any carpet is already room treatment. Peter, you also have room treatment. You have a carpet and furniture, and you adjusted the blinders covering your windows. Also, you very conciously removed the glass from your picture frames -- clearly room treatment.

I did remove all my TubeTraps recently, but that was only made possible after moving the subwoofers next to the main speakers rather than having them at the front wall. In that former configuration the TubeTraps were indispensable.

There are still in my room diffusers, including on the ceiling (super important in my room!!), ASC window plugs, and diverse carpets.

So indeed, the level of room treatment needed will always depend on the room and situation.

Yet again, there is no room without room treatment.

Al, I took Ian‘s opening question to mean audiophile acoustic room treatments, not rugs and chairs and lampshades. Buy your understanding, even the people in the room are to be considered room treatment.

if every room has room treatment, then the opening question is nonsensical because there is no such thing as no room treatment.

I think for the sake of discussion Ian means something different. I agree with you the window treatments and carpets and listening chair do affect the acoustics of a room, so does where your amplifiers are placed relative to your speakers.
 
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Al M.

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Al, I took Ian‘s opening question to mean audio file acoustic room treatments, not rugs and chairs and lampshades. Buy your understanding, even the people in the room our room treatment.

if every room has room treatment, then the opening question is nonsensical because there is no such thing as no room treatment.

I think for the sake of discussion Ian means something different. I agree with you the window treatments and carpets and listening chair do affect the acoustics of a room, so does where your amplifiers are placed relative to your speakers.

Point taken, Peter.

On the other hand, how different is the effect of audiophile room treatment to other things that absorb or diffuse? Absorption and diffusion are just that, after all. Sure, you can argue that corner TubeTraps are special treatment for corners, which is true. But there are also people who put book cabinets packed with books into the corners for diffusion. How is that more "natural"? I'm not sure.
 
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PeterA

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Yes, this is a different question than what I thought you meant originally. :)

For me, a fully damped room takes out of the sound too much of the energy and "aliveness" of the music.

I also wonder if it removes information. When I got around to removing my tube traps, I heard information from my records that I was not aware existed.
 

ddk

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Never heard/seen a "fully-damped" mastering room. A "fully-damped" room is a theatre, where there is NO reflection/diffusion of sound waves.

Now, I've seen mastering/mix room that are total diffusion (Blackbird?).
The one in NY working for Sony was fully padded and the floor decoupled with springs. It was an eerie feeling entering that room, never experienced depression of eardrums until then. The feeling of isolation is how I would imagine a space walk in outer space. Granted this was the most extreme but I've been to other ones that the dampness made me very uncomfortable.

david
 

PeterA

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Point taken, Peter.

On the other hand, how different is the effect of audiophile room treatment to other things that absorb or diffuse? Absorption and diffusion are just that, after all. Sure, you can argue that corner TubeTraps are special treatment for corners, which is true. But there are also people who put book cabinets packed with books into the corners for diffusion. How is that more "natural"? I'm not sure.

I think it’s very complicated subject Al. If the added audiophile room treatments or an overdamped sofa absorb a narrow band of frequencies, the result can be pleasing to some people and distracting to others. It’s just like cables or power cords or audio equipment that emphasize certain frequencies. Or they may deemphasized certain frequencies. Very difficult to predict the end result. This is where a lot of experimentation helps, as you found out in your own room.

Some people go to the effort of doing measurements and that can help also. But people have different opinions about what measurements in a room sound good.

After years of much praise about the acoustics at Goodwins high end in Boston, they’ve changed the room acoustics in the rooms. I understand they removed all of their tube traps but I haven’t been there. I ask myself what changed over the years and why they felt they had to change things.
 

MTB Vince

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Point taken, Peter.

On the other hand, how different is the effect of audiophile room treatment to other things that absorb or diffuse? Absorption and diffusion are just that, after all. Sure, you can argue that corner TubeTraps are special treatment for corners, which is true. But there are also people who put book cabinets packed with books into the corners for diffusion. How is that more "natural"? I'm not sure.
Fundamentally different. Properly engineered room acoustic treatments are based upon well established physical principals. Whether absorptive or diffusive (or some combination thereof), these sorts of treatments operate over a known frequency bandwidth in a predictable fashion. Shelves of books, window treatments, and random pieces of furniture much less so.

While I very much acknowledge the acoustical impact of "improvised treatments", a heavy drapery or wool rug's propensity for only attenuating high frequencies is much less useful at a primary reflection point than a 4-6" depth broadband panel made of glass/mineral/polyester/recycled cotton fiber wool. Over application of the former will tip the room sound towards "deadness". The latter will kill the unwanted reflection in it's entirety resulting in a neutral percieved frequency balance, sans confusing early reflection.
 

microstrip

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Point taken, Peter.

On the other hand, how different is the effect of audiophile room treatment to other things that absorb or diffuse? Absorption and diffusion are just that, after all. Sure, you can argue that corner TubeTraps are special treatment for corners, which is true. But there are also people who put book cabinets packed with books into the corners for diffusion. How is that more "natural"? I'm not sure.

IMHO frequency and spectral behavior are the answers to your question, as well as using the proper concept of the words absorption and diffusion. As long as our language will be imprecise and generic everyone is right and wrong. BTW, avoiding planar specular reflection is not forcefully diffusion.
 

Al M.

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IMHO frequency and spectral behavior are the answers to your question, as well as using the proper concept of the words absorption and diffusion. As long as our language will be imprecise and generic everyone is right and wrong. BTW, avoiding planar specular reflection is not forcefully diffusion.

Points taken.
 
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MadFloyd

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I appreciate all the contributions to this thread.
 
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BruceD

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Let me put it another way (you guys aren't understanding the essence of my question).

Why not have a room that is FULLY DAMPED?
Hell no MF-- Theta's original Soundroom at the factory was a clone of an absolutely Acoustic dungeon with no ambience at all

One tended to feel ill after awhile :mad:

BruceD
 

Al M.

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I think it’s very complicated subject Al. If the added audiophile room treatments or an overdamped sofa absorb a narrow band of frequencies, the result can be pleasing to some people and distracting to others. It’s just like cables or power cords or audio equipment that emphasize certain frequencies. Or they may deemphasized certain frequencies. Very difficult to predict the end result. This is where a lot of experimentation helps, as you found out in your own room.

Some people go to the effort of doing measurements and that can help also. But people have different opinions about what measurements in a room sound good.

Agreed, Peter. Without the TubeTraps in my room there is a bit more evenness of perceived frequency response. Not just are the highs more extended, but there was a narrow band in the upper/mid-bass that was diminished with the TubeTraps and affected drums, for example.

After years of much praise about the acoustics at Goodwins high end in Boston, they’ve changed the room acoustics in the rooms. I understand they removed all of their tube traps but I haven’t been there. I ask myself what changed over the years and why they felt they had to change things.

The removal of the TubeTraps was upon suggestion of a manufacturer who thought that would yield more liveliness. I assume they have fixed the problem, but there was a major mid-bass hump in that room (they measured it around 70 Hz) when I heard the Rockport Lyra a year ago. Very distracting as it smeared the sound, and in that case the removal of the TubeTraps made the cure clearly worse than the disease, in my opinion. But I assume that midbass hump must have been redeemable by other means. But boy, other than the midbass hump that is one great room!

My room has its own problems, but such
unevenness of bass response is not one of them, fortunately.
 
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adyc

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The one in NY working for Sony was fully padded and the floor decoupled with springs. It was an eerie feeling entering that room, never experienced depression of eardrums until then. The feeling of isolation is how I would imagine a space walk in outer space. Granted this was the most extreme but I've been to other ones that the dampness made me very uncomfortable.

david

Suppose the acoustic is very good. It is opposite to anechoic chamber. It is called ambechoic chamber according to Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers: Theory, Design and Application by Cox and D’Antonio. The impulse response of this room can be found in p59 of this book. If anyone is interested, one can check Amazon on the Look inside.

I have this book. It is an excellent reference.
 

Duke LeJeune

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Let me put it another way (you guys aren't understanding the essence of my question).

Why not have a room that is FULLY DAMPED?
The short answer is, reflections done right are your friends.

Reverberation is desirable for the sake of timbral richness and a sense of spaciousness. If that were not the case, concert halls and recital halls would be anechoic or nearly so.

As further evidence that at least some reverberation is desirable, if sufficient reverberation is not naturally in the recording it will usually be added by the recording engineer, so that the recording has not only timbral richness but also conveys ambience and a sense of the recording venue's space, even if that "space" is synthetic.

In the playback room, there is a "competition" between the acoustic space on the recording and the "small room signature" inherent to the room.

One of the reasons we don't want to "fully damp" the playback room is that then the ONLY direction we'd be getting the recording's reverberation from would be directly from the speakers. And it just so happens that the WORST possible direction for reflections to arrive from is the SAME direction as the first-arrival sound.

Ideally we want the reverberation which is on the recording to be delivered from all around, and if we're talking about two-channel, then the in-room reflections are the CARRIERS of the reverberation which is on the recording. So what we need to do is, MINIMIZE the playback room's "small room signature" cues WITHOUT killing off the recording's desirable venue cues.

Here is the secret: The "small room signature" cues are most strongly conveyed by the earliest reflections, whereas recording venue cues are most strongly conveyed by the reverberation tails. So what we want to do is MINIMIZE the early reflections without STARVING the beneficial later ones. When done correctly, clarity is not degraded yet we are immersed in the soundscape on the recording.

As a reality check, let's step back and take a look at a good seat in a good concert hall. In the front third of the hall, and in the middle section (as opposed to near the sides), is generally where the good seats are. In these seats the direct sound is still loud enough to be clearly dominant (something that is usually not an issue in home audio), then there is a considerable time gap in between the direct sound and the strong onset of reflections, and those reflections take a while to die out. THAT is the basic scenario we want to recreate in the playback room, though obviously on a smaller scale because our reflection paths are shorter.

So imo it is not as simple as looking at RT60 times, because those tell us nothing about the early reflections, which are the ones most likely to be detrimental. In particular, we want to minimize lateral reflections arriving withing the first 10 milliseconds, which is feasible in most rooms, without killing off the later-arriving reflections. This is a problem which has multiple possible solutions, which I won't go into here.

There is one other thing which comes into play, and that is the spectral balance of the reflections. It is desirable for the reflections to have approximately the same spectral balance as the first-arrival sound. To a certain extent this is a function of loudspeaker radiation patterns, but room acoustic treatments can play a huge (and not always beneficial) role. In general room acoustic treatments remove more energy at short wavelengths than at long ones, so they tend to not only make the reflections quieter, but also duller, as far as spectral balance. This can do more harm than good!

You see, the ear/brain system classifies reflections as such based on their spectral balance matching up well with an earlier initial sound. When there is a significant spectral discrepancy between the direct sound and the reflections, the ear/brain system literally has to work harder to classify the reflections, and over time this "increased CPU usage" results in listening fatigue and even a headache.

And once a reflection is no longer recognizable as such by the ear/brain system, it ceases to be "signal" and becomes "noise". So the EFFECTIVE noise floor may actually be HIGHER if the room has too much damping, because sounds which would normally have been "signal" are now "noise". And what we are losing includes those desirable reverberation tails which convey the venue's ambience cues.

Of course there are ways to address the loudspeaker/room interface which do not have these downsides. But my guess is that when people have removed their acoustic treatments and heard an improvement, some of that may be due to restoring the high frequency energy which should have been present in the reflections all along.

Sorry for the long post; the topic is far more involved than what I've written here.

But to sum up: Reflections done right are your friends.
 
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