Natural Sound

[bonzo75]

Folded paper surrounds which are basically reworked cone material but ya... you have to have something or the cone could not move.

And sorry but I don't believe for a second that all the old stuff is derived purely from genius. In fact I think that's insane. The problem is that they didn't know then anymore than what we know now about what exactly every detail does for the sound. Basically everything old in the past had certain goals and met them based on how they knew they could, and didn't look back if it sounded good. I'm sure the compared some, but overall, realistically, they never spent the kind of time we are willing to in an attempt to dissect the whole issue.

The biggest problem is likely the unwillingness to accept that objectively bad decisions may be subjectively good.

BTW I thought the AS-2000, a modern turntable, was better than the EMT 927... sometimes when budget isn't the focus things can clearly be better.

Which horns have you heard or compared, and when did you hear the AS and the 927?

You miss the point that the older ones we use today are the survivors, proven time and time again the poor and mediocre ones have been lost.

 

[morricab]

Which horns have you heard or compared, and when did you hear the AS and the 927?

You miss the point that the older ones we use today are the survivors, proven time and time again the poor and mediocre ones have been lost.

While I agree with this basic premise on why these old ones are good , it still doesn’t adequately explain why they can’t be accurately replicated.
It is not the same as making an exact copy of a Stradivarius, for example, where the precise staring materials (wood, glue, lacquer) are lost to us in the mists of time. A paper cone might be subject to this a bit as the exact paper makeup might no longer be known or available.

For the most part though we have metal, magnetic materials and particular geometries that can be exactly matched. I would argue that replicating the crossover with current materials could have a very significant effect...for better or worse. But if you can find vintage parts then you could build an exact replicate of that too.

 

[DaveC]

We don't make things the same way today, the best surviving examples of vintage gear were often made in ways that are more expensive and time consuming vs today.

An example is the vacuum in NOS tubes is often more complete vs today, metals processed better, assembly by very skilled workers....

It's not that we CAN'T... it's that now we prioritize cost more, even on expensive things, often paying more these days is not justified by real quality. This goes for so many things, from our clothing to our furniture, to colognes and perfumes, to our electronics and speakers... all cheaper than they used to be in many ways.

 

[jeff1225]

If also like to point out that the best vintage products were adapted to the consumer market. Altec, WE, Seimens, EMT, JBL, Tannoy, Vitavox, etc, were made for theatre/concert or studio applications.

 

[Folsom]

If also like to point out that the best vintage products were adapted to the consumer market. Altec, WE, Seimens, EMT, JBL, Tannoy, Vitavox, etc, were made for theatre/concert or studio applications.

The funny thing is try that now... only a few JBL things are ok, and not amazing.

 

[microstrip]

We’re not talking about the average mass produced vintage audio products, they‘re just old junk, easy to replicated. We’re talking about the best of the best made by geniuses of the golden age. What can you use to measure and acquire their knowledge and skills. Not only for speakers look at tubes many are built in the same plants with the original tooling but they can’t match what they didn’t create. Neumann cartridges, not much to them and many copies made but none come even close to the originals. Same as their mics, lathes, cutting heads, etc. EMT 927, WE horn speakers, Siemens Klangfilms and few others have never been replicated successfully even if the company still exists today, their people are gone. Even the better electrical AC motors, on paper basic engineering and there’s a high demand for quality ones anyone make them? Vinyl formulations, pure chemistry any of the current crap even come close? We can go on and on and on but it’s the same, genius doesn’t com in a bottle. You’re also dealing with materials and components that don’t exist anymore.

Many of the vintage drivers in question do not have surrounds to rot.

david

David,

Do you realize that you are always referring just to a very few limited and specific components , adding "etc" - something that impedes any systematic analysis?

It is easily understood why we can't exactly duplicate the subjective performance of vintage - these products have a well defined sound signature, resulted from the sensitivity of their creators. In an hobby where changing a cable - something that is technically immeasurable in the sense that it reproduces and explains the effect - creates a night and day difference, we can't expect exact reproduction of anything. So you will always be a winner if the discussion centers only on copying vintage. However, most people will simply tell that their designs based on classic vintage sound close or better than the original - and here we will have just individual opinions.

 

[PeterA]

Ten years ago or so The Selby did a feature in Japan on a guy with pretty good taste including this console

Hideto Irikawa - Consultant and Business OwnerHideto Irikawa - Consultant and Business Owner

The Selby is in Your Place is Photographs and Paintings by Todd Selby of Creative People and Creative Spaces

theselby.com

Solypsa, Selby has made some very interesting and cool choices, especially with those cars. I love the house setting. Thank you for sharing this link.

 

[PeterA]

Can a corner or center console speaker perform on par with a free standing speaker?

I'm sure it can sound pretty and beautiful. But we on these forums have spent so much time talking about the critical nature of speaker placement and room interaction. Then it appear on the surface this thread throws that out. A speaker can be packed into a corner and do all a free standing horn placed in a meticulously chosen location can do.

Ok, no one said that, or even implied it. But I am asking it. Can a corner or console, or have corner or consoles, been designed to overcome the limitation of being up against a back wall or corner. Is there a degree of performance loss that is taken as acceptable to gain the structure and decorum of blending in a home environment. Or do these speakers stand tall against a great horn well placed in a room.
Rex

That is an interesting question, Rex. My experience is far too limited to be able to generalize is such a way and provide any meaningful thoughts. I will say that these corner horns, along with the table and electronics is delivering a level of natural resolution that I only one heard before, and that was in Utah. I think the corner horns simply address the challenge of presenting music in a small room in a different way than do conventional speakers pulled out from the front and side walls. The presentation is very different. I happen to prefer it to what I had. Others may not.

In terms of pretty and beautiful sound, there is certainly that, but it is naive to think it stops there. The sound is very realistic and convincing, with startling dynamics and timbral accuracy. Acoustic bass articulation, tone, weight, and impact is truly exceptional in my experience. But recall, that these horns did not perform to their potential in David's corners because of his room dimensions and materials. I think it is a mistake to start discussing these typologies in general terms. There are successful, even special, and less successful, even bad, examples of most every type of speaker.

Corner placement is not overcoming a limitation. It is part of the design, and it enhances performance for these designs. These Vitavoxs here in my system/room context do stand tall, but not as tall, as a great horn (like David's Seimanns) well placed in a room. It is a matter of degree.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,
the new system looks as if you have arrived in your sound heaven. Being a friend of the Micro Seiki units I came from the SX 8000 II to some other mods. David is your best advisor in this matter, so you are well advised listening to him. I have a kind of advanced Living Voice speaker which became my final tool. I like your photos, guessing you are in this hobby as well!? Ah yes, all these old men with the golden ears! Honestly, never understood why you liked the SME table that much. It is okay but now you are closer to Nirvana.
Hope you got good food by the cook David!?

Enjoy the music.
best
Eckart

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Thank you Eckart. I appreciate your comments. During my research into the Micro Seiki, I did come across your outstanding website and audio blog. You have written some wonderful articles, and I learned much. It seems there are pockets of people around devoted to and who understand the Micro tables.

I took up photography as my daughters grew and started playing sports. I have much to learn, but my particular interest is in sailing, skiing, and lacrosse action photography. I am considering getting a nice Nikon micro lens for audio photography. As my girls have grown up, photography is taking a back seat to my other interests, particularly sailing and audio. I like your audio photographs very much.

The SME table had a proud place in my system for nine years. As I continued to improve the system set up, the SME allowed me to hear the various improvements and I enjoyed it very much. Then, when I thought I had taken the system as far as it could go, I decided I needed to switch my main components. The SME now has a nice new home and will be enjoyed for many more years.

 

[jeff1225]

The funny thing is try that now... only a few JBL things are ok, and not amazing.

Agreed. We love classic commercial horns and bass drivers because they were designed before DSP and class D ampflication.

 

[PeterA]

I was going to ask about your impressions of the Vitavox and M9500, so thanks for the proactive account above. You are fortunate in hearing both in proximity. And you chose to purchase the Vitavox - they certainly are appealing.

You describe hearing "a slightly different sound" with the the M9500 sounding "more modern" and @ddk noted it had greater extension in high frequencies and bass. You also describe the M9500 as "very good" though "very slightly less natural" without the same "magic" you heard from the Vitavox and Bionors.

I believe for those who follow the natural sound preference there is no singular instance of natural sound that is the archetype or "form". Just as different orchestras and concert halls will sound different, each of the performances by them or in them sound natural.

The same holds for different components that can demonstrate a natural sound - there is no one specific set of components that are ... how should I say this ... the most natural. Different people may enjoy different systems that sound natural differently while each may have one that suits them more than others. Do you too believe what I wrote in these last two paragraphs?

I'm very interested in learning more about the M9500, and contrasting it with the Vitavox (and other speakers exemplifing natural sound) will be most helpful. I know you like to say "it sounds natural" or "more natural" and that suffices for description. That is very helpful for understanding your personal view but in terms of describing differences to others it is generalized. (That is not a criticism; I'm simply trying to draw you out.) In post #5 of your new system thread you wrote a 20 point list of natural sound criteria or characteristics entitled "What is Natural Sound?." Using your list as a guide would you please talk more about differencs and similarities of the M9500 and Vitavox, particularly in your terms of "more natural" and "magic." TIA.

Hello Tim, I agree with the analogy of natural sounding audio systems and the better sounding orchestra halls. I think I wrote about that in the Utah visit thread when describing David's four systems and mentioning Chicago, Boston, and Vienna.

I would say that there are degrees of natural sound, but just as there are different natural sounding systems, there are different natural sounding halls. And with these differences, the important thing to recognize and appreciate is that some rise above the rest. We can tell ourselves that it is all opinion, but in rare cases, those opinions seem fairly universal, in, for example, the cases of Boston, and Vienna. It is also the case with certain speakers like the WE and Seimanns Bionor, David's Beyond turntables, and certain electronics. When there is general consensus about relative quality, that should tell us something. David has spent years learning and understanding these differences. We can look to him for guidance and then listen for ourselves.

You seem to have discovered what is special about Lamm electronics and Ching Cheng power cords. Those opinions are shared by many.

The basic difference between the JBL and the Vitavoxs is the presentation. They both are highly resolving and provide emotional and engaging listening experiences. I thought the Vitavox has just a tad more magic and emotion and they drew me in more. The JBL had a bit more "air" on more music, was more extended while the Vitavox had great "air" on some recordings, but not on others. I don't know, but I sense the JBL was designed more with measurements in mind while the Vitavox was designed by simply listening.

I could have happily bought either speaker, but in my particular room, with the goal of returning to a more traditional look and use of living room for entertainment and relaxation in an old house, the Vitavox was the more appropriate choice. In a dedicated, single purpose room, the JBL would be quite wonderful. They both sound natural, but they present music differently as do different concert halls.

 

[Kingrex]

But recall, that these horns did not perform well in David's corners because of his room dimensions and materials. I think it is a mistake to start discussing these typologies in general terms. There are successful, even special, and less successful, even bad, examples of most every type of .

That's a good point. Room placement is, well, about the room. Your room looks well suited for corner speakets. I have a large pass through on one side and a window on the other. I would obviously get a much different response in my space.

 

[rbbert]

The last few pages have seen some discussion about high-frequency extension and treble "energy", which of course then brings up the question of the listener's auditory acuity in the treble ranges. KeithR and Ron are quite a bit younger than most of us and I suspect they might have pretty good hearing even in the 15k - 20kHz range, but how about those here in their 60's and '70's? Reference sources often state that most people over 50 have trouble hearing even 12kHz tones, and by 70 that may have fallen to 8-9 kHz. There is also some research indicating that frequencies around the steepest part of the slope of ones' high-frequency hearing loss will sound harsh and distorted; for those who have significant noise-induced hearing loss there may also be "notches" of loss in the 2,000 - 8,000 Hz range where that same phenomenon occurs. We can learn to compensate for these issues to some degree, but they don't go away; without some knowledge about one's own hearing this makes it very difficult to generalize about your own opinions and impressions with respect to others'. In any case, though, discussion about supertweeters whose response begins in the range where most of us already can't hear at all seems a bit disingenuous

Just more food for thought

 

[jespera]

Agreed. We love classic commercial horns and bass drivers because they were designed before DSP and class D ampflication.

... and before digital recordings and while developers still had real music, real instruments and real sounds as reference ...

 

[airbearing]

Peter,
great hobbies! Learning is the most intelligent way to improve. Unfortunately we love it in the Western World just to show up instead of asking and learning. Enjoy your sportive life!

best
eckart

www.Audiocirc.com

 

[airbearing]

rbbert, agree! There is much more to hear over 12´ Hz!

best
eckart

Presence Improvement

You may know that we got the ability listening to higher tones using High and Super High Tweeters in our audio system. Usually we are told getting older we are loosing some frequencies. Being an ex…

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[Kingrex]

Peters speakers got me thinking. Last night I watched some really bad Youtube about horns. Either Steve G going on and on about I'm not sure what. Then the lets make static video of my stereo playing. I still don't get that. Then I ran into a guy talking about setting up horns. Instead of facing forward they are severely toed in crossing in front of the listening chair. In my room pretty much 45* like Peters corner horns. At first blush it is radically different sounding. And not in a bad way. The imaging is radically changed. But its clean and full. Less scattered reflections off the side walls. I think the images are more firmly landed. I need to listen further.

 

[Solypsa]

. Then I ran into a guy talking about setting up horns. Instead of facing forward they are severely toed in crossing in front of the listening chair. In my room pretty much 45* like Peters corner horns. At first blush it is radically different sounding. And not in a bad way. The imaging is radically changed. But its clean and full. Less scattered reflections off the side walls. I think the images are more firmly landed. I need to listen further.

I thought the school of thought vis a vis crossing the left and right so you are listening off axis was to increase the late reflections from opposite walls. Seems like @Duke LeJeune would have some wisdom on that topic...

 

[Folsom]

I thought the school of thought vis a vis crossing the left and right so you are listening off axis was to increase the late reflections from opposite walls. Seems like @Duke LeJeune would have some wisdom on that topic...

Well, that's what happens when they aren't hitting the side walls.

 

[Kingrex]

I thought the school of thought vis a vis crossing the left and right so you are listening off axis was to increase the late reflections from opposite walls. Seems like @Duke LeJeune would have some wisdom on that topic...

I don't know this guy was any expert but he was saying something as such. The rear wall reflection was off 2 walls in the back corner. And there is relatively no side wall reflection.