floating speaker cables.....on the cheap

[Mike Lavigne]

cable management certainly can limit or enhance our resonance treatments; if our heavy cables pull down on our gear then the decoupling aspect of footers or shelves is compromised. ambient and floor borne resonance can get transferred to gear by cables. we know this. my interconnects have their effects and i try to manage the 'weight' of those as best i can.

Cable Management -

Impact of Poor Cable Management Vibrations introduced into an isolated system via cabling are a common problem for sensitive instruments. Cables can carry vibrations from an auxiliary piece of equipment (i.e. a pump or fan), into the chassis of a sensitive instrument. Cables can also transmit...

www.herzan.com

however in my system the big thing is that both my darTZeel mono blocks sit on active Tana (Herzan TS-140's) systems; yet have very heavy gauge Evolution Acoustics speaker cables. the strong pull downward from those cables has got to significantly reduce the benefit of active decoupling. so i've had an idea (not new or original) about suspending the cables so they are 'unweighted' and 'float'. and have been looking for pieces to put together that solution.

two years ago we bought a tent to cover our front porch/door when the porch roof collapsed from snow load prior to repairs being complete. the tent used a dozen little bungees to attach the cover to the frame. bingo!!! those little bungees were then set aside in my audio tweak drawer waiting for the correct sized rack to reveal itself. this week my wife purchased a marble base/stainless towel rack with stainless arms that looked to be the correct height and was sufficiently robust for the cable hanging job.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08FX6T2VV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

i had my wife purchase three and hold three more. i was worried the cables would be too heavy and tip over the rack. the first 3 arrived today, i tried them, and i have achieved 'float'. and they are very stable. the cables are now near neutral weight on the amps/active systems. the other three towel racks are purchased and arrive Friday. $39.99 plus tax (free delivery) X 6 = $240 plus tax to improve my 'god only knows how expensive' amp and active isolation.

yes; i can hear the change for the better, a little weird as it's one sided. need the other side done before i go too far with my comments.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

cable management certainly can limit or enhance our resonance treatments; if our heavy cables pull down on our gear then the decoupling aspect of footers or shelves is compromised. we know this. my interconnects have their effects and i try to manage the 'weight' of those as best i can.

Cable Management -

Impact of Poor Cable Management Vibrations introduced into an isolated system via cabling are a common problem for sensitive instruments. Cables can carry vibrations from an auxiliary piece of equipment (i.e. a pump or fan), into the chassis of a sensitive instrument. Cables can also transmit...

www.herzan.com

however in my system the big thing is that both my darTZeel mono blocks sit on active Tana (Herzan TS-140's) systems; yet have very heavy gauge Evolution Acoustics speaker cables. the strong pull downward from those cables has got to significantly reduce the benefit of active decoupling. so i've had an idea (not new or original) about suspending the cables so they are 'unweighted' and 'float'. and have been looking for pieces to put together that solution.

two years ago we bought a tent to cover our front porch/door when the porch roof collapsed from snow load prior to repairs being complete. the tent used a dozen little bungees to attach the cover to the frame. bingo!!! those little bungees were then set aside in my audio tweak drawer waiting for the correct sized rack to reveal itself. this week my wife purchased a marble base/stainless towel rack with stainless arms that looked to be the correct height and was sufficiently robust for the cable hanging job.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08FX6T2VV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

i had my wife purchase three and hold three more. i was worried the cables would be too heavy and tip over the rack. the first 3 arrived today, i tried them, and i have achieved 'float'. and they are very stable. the cables are now near neutral weight on the amps/active systems. the other three racks are purchased and arrive Friday. $39.99 plus tax (free delivery) X 6 = $240 plus tax to improve my 'god only knows how expensive' amp and active isolation.

yes; i can hear the change for the better, a little weird as it's one sided. need the other side done before i go too far with my comments.

View attachment 82898
View attachment 82899

Looks nice and neat.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

ok, here is the rest of the story. my other 3 stainless/marble towel racks arrived last evening, i assembled them and inserted them and my other 6 bungees into my system....so both sides are done. my speaker cables are now floating on both sides. i did also raise the cable elevators under my amp power cables and interconnects on both sides to remove more 'weight' from those, but i did not 'float' them. maybe later at some point?

there was a night and day difference immediately. with one channel done already before i had a hint; but this was a punch in the nose. i listened last night late, then this morning for a few hours to get my arms around the changes.

---clarity to previously unheard levels......better focus and finer more delicate textures/timbre.
---noise floor lowered. more air around action, more ambient information. more note expansion.
---better bass; quicker......more articulate. more impact, more decay.
---more dynamic contrasts......the music is more lively and the flow is more involving.....i'm tending to turn the volume down a step or so compared to before.
---for you skeptics, i'm seeing a higher peak level readout on drum whacks at the same preamp volume as before. like 12 is now 16, 20 is now 26.

i need to live with this for a few weeks to really get my arms around it. so far this is just my objective views on the changes. do i like it better? i expect i will, but want to live with it for a time.

why am i getting such a significant effect from floating my speaker cables?

my system is very revealing of changes, and my amps are very resolving and quiet to begin with. previously anything i could do to allow my amps to perform better paid big dividends. but still mostly i think it's because of my active isolation. as i suspected, my very heavy speaker cables were damping the sensors and actuators, so they were much restricted. three years ago when i installed the active Tana systems under my amps, i had two local friends come over twice (6 months apart) to help me assess the benefit before i invested in it. it was doing enough to justify the decision, but there was much more to be had.

does my experience have relevance to others?

not many float their amps on active shelves; but i cannot imagine any decoupling rack, shelf or footers that are not negatively impacted by heavy cables pulling down on them. but not everyone decouples their gear, and maybe some think 'mass grounding' is preferred. yet speaker cables certainly transfer resonance to both amps and speakers which become part of the noise level and smear the signal.

the bottom line......is......drum roll......at $240 plus tax and zero difficulty in applying this 'mod' what do you have to lose besides 45 minutes. you will get more truth if your system can handle it.

 

[matakana]

ok, here is the rest of the story. my other 3 stainless/marble towel racks arrived last evening, i assembled them and inserted them and my other 6 bungees into my system....so both sides are done. my speaker cables are now floating on both sides. i did also raise the cable elevators under my amp power cables and interconnects on both sides to remove more 'weight' from those, but i did not 'float' them. maybe later at some point?

there was a night and day difference immediately. with one channel done already before i had a hint; but this was a punch in the nose. i listened last night late, then this morning for a few hours to get my arms around the changes.

---clarity to previously unheard levels......better focus and finer more delicate textures/timbre.
---noise floor lowered. more air around action, more ambient information. more note expansion.
---better bass; quicker......more articulate. more impact, more decay.
---more dynamic contrasts......the music is more lively and the flow is more involving.....i'm tending to turn the volume down a step or so compared to before.
---for you skeptics, i'm seeing a higher peak level readout on drum whacks at the same preamp volume as before. like 12 is now 16, 20 is now 26.

i need to live with this for a few weeks to really get my arms around it. so far this is just my objective views on the changes. do i like it better? i expect i will, but want to live with it for a time.

why am i getting such a significant effect from floating my speaker cables?

my system is very revealing of changes, and my amps are very resolving and quiet to begin with. previously anything i could do to allow my amps to perform better paid big dividends. but still mostly i think it's because of my active isolation. as i suspected, my very heavy speaker cables were damping the sensors and actuators, so they were much restricted. three years ago when i installed the active Tana systems under my amps, i had two local friends come over twice (6 months apart) to help me assess the benefit before i invested in it. it was doing enough to justify the decision, but there was much more to be had.

does my experience have relevance to others?

not many float their amps on active shelves; but i cannot imagine any decoupling rack, shelf or footers that are not negatively impacted by heavy cables pulling down on them. but not everyone decouples their gear, and maybe some think 'mass grounding' is preferred. yet speaker cables certainly transfer resonance to both amps and speakers which become part of the noise level and smear the signal.

the bottom line......is......drum roll......at $240 plus tax and zero difficulty in applying this 'mod' what do you have to lose besides 45 minutes. you will get more truth if your system can handle it.

View attachment 83042
View attachment 83043

Very interesting Mike, Thankyou for taking the time in sharing this, thought you might have gone for the brushed brass cradles lol.

 

[Elliot G.]

ok, here is the rest of the story. my other 3 stainless/marble towel racks arrived last evening, i assembled them and inserted them and my other 6 bungees into my system....so both sides are done. my speaker cables are now floating on both sides. i did also raise the cable elevators under my amp power cables and interconnects on both sides to remove more 'weight' from those, but i did not 'float' them. maybe later at some point?

there was a night and day difference immediately. with one channel done already before i had a hint; but this was a punch in the nose. i listened last night late, then this morning for a few hours to get my arms around the changes.

---clarity to previously unheard levels......better focus and finer more delicate textures/timbre.
---noise floor lowered. more air around action, more ambient information. more note expansion.
---better bass; quicker......more articulate. more impact, more decay.
---more dynamic contrasts......the music is more lively and the flow is more involving.....i'm tending to turn the volume down a step or so compared to before.
---for you skeptics, i'm seeing a higher peak level readout on drum whacks at the same preamp volume as before. like 12 is now 16, 20 is now 26.

i need to live with this for a few weeks to really get my arms around it. so far this is just my objective views on the changes. do i like it better? i expect i will, but want to live with it for a time.

why am i getting such a significant effect from floating my speaker cables?

my system is very revealing of changes, and my amps are very resolving and quiet to begin with. previously anything i could do to allow my amps to perform better paid big dividends. but still mostly i think it's because of my active isolation. as i suspected, my very heavy speaker cables were damping the sensors and actuators, so they were much restricted. three years ago when i installed the active Tana systems under my amps, i had two local friends come over twice (6 months apart) to help me assess the benefit before i invested in it. it was doing enough to justify the decision, but there was much more to be had.

does my experience have relevance to others?

not many float their amps on active shelves; but i cannot imagine any decoupling rack, shelf or footers that are not negatively impacted by heavy cables pulling down on them. but not everyone decouples their gear, and maybe some think 'mass grounding' is preferred. yet speaker cables certainly transfer resonance to both amps and speakers which become part of the noise level and smear the signal.

the bottom line......is......drum roll......at $240 plus tax and zero difficulty in applying this 'mod' what do you have to lose besides 45 minutes. you will get more truth if your system can handle it.

View attachment 83042
View attachment 83043

you run HO or Lionel Full size on that? LOL

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, is this the first time your wife has been involved other than sighing "not again?!"
I mean, better late than never.

 

[DaveC]

Nice! Good idea with the towel racks. I'm sure you could've found an audiophile alternative for a couple orders of magnitude more $....

I know they're massive... but now decouple your speakers!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Nice! Good idea with the towel racks. I'm sure you could've found an audiophile alternative for a couple orders of magnitude more $....

yes, Furutech or Shunyata could likely charge a bunch based on the performance ROI.

I know they're massive... but now decouple your speakers!

they are decoupled. i use 4 sets of these.

Wave Kinetics 2NS – Loudspeaker Interface System

How does the 2NS work? The WAVE KINETICS 2NS Loudspeaker Interface System attenuates vibration energy transmitted from the speaker to the floor while maintaining an extremely flat frequency respons…

www.chambersaudio.com

 

[Cellcbern]

These are cheap and effective:

AudioQuest Fog Lifters - Positive Feedback

If you believe in RFI—no, let me start over. If you believe in science (since RFI is a measurable phenomenon), most likely you are doing something to address RFI. We have all been advised to get those darn wires off the floor. A dozen companies will be happy to sell you specialized lifts at...

positive-feedback.com

 

[DaveC]

yes, Furutech or Shunyata could likely charge a bunch based on the performance ROI.

they are decoupled. i use 4 sets of these.

Wave Kinetics 2NS – Loudspeaker Interface System

How does the 2NS work? The WAVE KINETICS 2NS Loudspeaker Interface System attenuates vibration energy transmitted from the speaker to the floor while maintaining an extremely flat frequency respons…

www.chambersaudio.com

Those look interesting... How do you like them? Have you tried out different solutions? I'm currently considering some different footers including making my own, but it's really not a trivial undertaking.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

These are cheap and effective:

AudioQuest Fog Lifters - Positive Feedback

If you believe in RFI—no, let me start over. If you believe in science (since RFI is a measurable phenomenon), most likely you are doing something to address RFI. We have all been advised to get those darn wires off the floor. A dozen companies will be happy to sell you specialized lifts at...

positive-feedback.com

thank you.

i read the review and it makes sense. this and my cable floating are system tuning devices, with my active isolation performance an additional variable. i ordered 2 sets of the Audioquest Fog Lifters to play around with.

as i wrote, i have to live with this and figure it out. so far so good.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Those look interesting... How do you like them? Have you tried out different solutions? I'm currently considering some different footers including making my own, but it's really not a trivial undertaking.

previously i had used the top of line Combak Harmonix (i think model RF-909x) Footers on my MM3's which i really liked (not cheap). when i switched to the twin tower MM7's i decided to use the Wave Kinetics 2NS as they had been used by my speaker designer. i like what they do, my bass, and transients, are finely detailed and the speakers disappear. speaker resolution does not seem to be limiting. i've not tried anything else for almost 10 years now.

designing speaker footers would be a challenge since speakers have such a wide variance of weight. each of my 4 towers weigh 750 pounds and are 7 feet tall. not trivial to deal with.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

on Friday night when i first listened i needed to adjust my tweeter gain to begin with as the 'float' caused it to be too hot on top. that night and yesterday i continued to play around with that. i figured that was part of the picture. i had noticed an upward tilt to the balance. but i was almost listening 100% to digital. as the day went on yesterday and i listened to more vinyl i could see that all was not ok. i stepped back twice, going away and doing other things then returning to see how i felt.

thinking about it overnight i think i just need to play around a little to see where the best balance is overall. will some degree of float be better than none? i just don't know. how much of the positive attributes can i retain with less float?

so i wanted to communicate 'a stop sign' to anyone reading this thread about my reservations before you spend your $240 . as i said above......

i need to live with this for a few weeks to really get my arms around it. so far this is just my objective views on the changes. do i like it better? i expect i will, but want to live with it for a time.

i'm glad i've gone down this road for sure, to further understand cause and effect. i did order 2 sets of those Audioquest Fog Lifters to play around with. see where they might help, and assist with fine tuning. with a mature system that is delivering what you like........fighting to find a little more does require some relentlessness to find that last bit of musical truth. in this case not a lot of dollars at least.

 

[Salectric]

View attachment 83074

on Friday night when i first listened i needed to adjust my tweeter gain to begin with as the 'float' caused it to be too hot on top. that night and yesterday i continued to play around with that. i figured that was part of the picture. i had noticed an upward tilt to the balance. but i was almost listening 100% to digital. as the day went on yesterday and i listened to more vinyl i could see that all was not ok. i stepped back twice, going away and doing other things then returning to see how i felt.

thinking about it overnight i think i just need to play around a little to see where the best balance is overall. will some degree of float be better than none? i just don't know. how much of the positive attributes can i retain with less float?

so i wanted to communicate 'a stop sign' to anyone reading this thread about my reservations before you spend your $240 . as i said above......


i'm glad i've gone down this road for sure, to further understand cause and effect. i did order 2 sets of those Audioquest Fog Lifters to play around with. see where they might help, and assist with fine tuning. with a mature system that is delivering what you like........fighting to find a little more does require some relentlessness to find that last bit of musical truth. in this case not a lot of dollars at least.

I have been down this road 10 or 15 times by now. After reading enthusiastic reports about cable lifters, I try one type or another and each time I reach the same conclusion: my cables sound better balanced tonally and just plain more natural when resting directly on the carpet. This was true with whatever speaker cable I was using at the time (these days Audio Note SPx silver litz).

It’s easy to be fooled by tweaks like cable lifters. Our ears latch onto aspects that seem at the time like obvious improvements (speed, “air” and perceived detail) and we ignore aspects that are actually changes for the worse. That’s why it’s so important to go back to the old arrangement from time to time as a reality check.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have been down this road 10 or 15 times by now. After reading enthusiastic reports about cable lifters, I try one type or another and each time I reach the same conclusion: my cables sound better balanced tonally and just plain more natural when resting directly on the carpet. This was true with whatever speaker cable I was using at the time (these days Audio Note SPx silver litz).

It’s easy to be fooled by tweaks like cable lifters. Our ears latch onto aspects that seem at the time like obvious improvements (speed, “air” and perceived detail) and we ignore aspects that are actually changes for the worse. That’s why it’s so important to go back to the old arrangement from time to time as a reality check.

i've been using the Shunyata 'dark matter' lifters all around for about 8 years and i have liked my system balance. when i first inserted them i had no negative perceptions, they added a degree of 'life' but never any tonal tilt. before the Shunyata i used the big ceramic mushroom type which were fine. i'm not strongly for or against cable lifters.

but those were both 'solid' products and were grounded. just provided a more consistent environment but not a suspension. suspension takes things to another level of effect.

my personal push to try this 'float' approach was to optimize my active decoupling. otherwise i would never have tried it. and in the end it might be better. we will see.

 

[PeterA]

but those were both 'solid' products and were grounded. just provided a more consistent environment but not a suspension. suspension takes things to another level of effect.

Mike, when is more consistent than just leaving the cables on the ground? That way they don’t have pressure points from cable lifters and they are for the most part consistently level throughout the length except for the two connection ends.

Have you tried simply putting a stack of paper back books under the end of your speaker cables behind your amplifiers to relieve the downward pressure dampening affect on the active isolation platforms?

It’s unclear to me what problem you are hearing that you are trying to solve. Is the plug somehow loose at the back of your amplifiers because the cables are so heavy?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, any assymetric loading of devices like the Tana, and especially Minus-K, negates their efficacy. When I tested the Minus-K under my tt, I had to be so careful to centralise the centre of gravity of both TT and rim drive pod, and cable dressing leaving the platform. My Stacore seems immune to this, an additional reason I went in this direction.
But with large heavy cables effectively cantilevering beyond the Tana, I can see how it makes sense for Mike to minimise these stresses to reduce asymmetric loading.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, when is more consistent than just leaving the cables on the ground? That way they don’t have pressure points from cable lifters and they are for the most part consistently level throughout the length except for the two connection ends.

Have you tried simply putting a stack of paper back books under the end of your speaker cables behind your amplifiers to relieve the downward pressure dampening affect on the active isolation platforms?

It’s unclear to me what problem you are hearing that you are trying to solve. Is the plug somehow loose at the back of your amplifiers because the cables are so heavy?

Marc explains it well. any decoupling footer or rack is similarly effected, although whether the effect is audible is depending on the degree of decoupling, the weight of the cables, and the resolution of the system. it's all context.

not sure you use decoupling in your system, so that concept might not be relevant to you.

and further, no, none of my signal or power cables are coming loose. but cables do transfer resonance from the floor to gear. and for sure your home with it's suspended floor carries plenty of resonance. the floor sings with the music and then it's resonance is added through your cables to your noise floor. not all cables will transfer the resonance to the same degree. so no absolutes. David's cables of choice might be less effected, but no cables are immune. it's just physics.

'wireless' would be immune, but then have it's own issues.

and it's reasonable that the overall preferred balance of a system might involve the cables laying on the floor. no right or wrong to preference. so i'm not telling you that you have a problem to solve. this is a question of system tuning, cause and effect, and preferences.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, any assymetric loading of devices like the Tana, and especially Minus-K, negates their efficacy. When I tested the Minus-K under my tt, I had to be so careful to centralise the centre of gravity of both TT and rim drive pod, and cable dressing leaving the platform. My Stacore seems immune to this, an additional reason I went in this direction.
But with large heavy cables effectively cantilevering beyond the Tana, I can see how it makes sense for Mike to minimise these stresses to reduce asymmetric loading.

Yes I have considered this Marc. No amplifier I’ve ever had presents a symmetrical load to all 4 footers. I don’t know much about Mike’s amplifiers. Perhaps the weight distribution is equal on all four corners, but if it is not, would that not negate your statement?

Is your argument that the weight of the speaker cable presents an unequal load for the active isolation platform? That was not clear to me from Mike’s OP. I think one must also take into account what is happening with the cable when you float it like that putting unequal stress points on the points of contact and exposing it to airborne vibration like that. At warp nine in Mike’s room, I imagine there’s a lot of airborne vibration going on.

It may simply be a case that the cable needs to resettle because it was moved. I don’t claim any experience with this kind of stuff. I’m just asking questions trying to better understand because I used to experiment with this stuff. You and Mike have much more experience with tweaking your systems.

I applaud Mike’s posting the stop sign and telling us not to jump to any quick conclusions from this latest tweak experiment because he is not sure of the results.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes Peter, the Tana is based on a Herzan that as we all know is lab-grade super sensitive. The issue is not so much movement or vibrations from the cable, it's just that cables "pull" away from the amp and thus the platform. Anything that alleviates this "traction" will allow the Tana ie Herzan to work as it was designed.
I found the Minus-K that I auditioned absolutely was scuppered by certain cables dressing positions...and my system is not in Mike's hyper resolution league.