Boulder vs. D'Agostino listening impressions

[rangda]

I'm in DC for Capital Audiofest and stopped into JS Audio today to compare "entry level" (using that term pretty loosely in this case) Boulder and D'Agostino gear. In this case the Progression pre/stereo power vs. Boulder 1110/1161 vs. Boulder 1110/1160.

Some context.

I've just begun the journey of upgrading most of the components in my system. My current system was built in the late 90's and consists of:

VPI TNT 3
Graham Phantom 2 (replaced a 2.0 that died and Bob no longer had parts to fix it)
Lyra Kleos
Herron VTPH-1 MC
Audio Research LS-25
Wilson Watt/Puppy 6

The Watt/Puppy 6's were replaced about a month ago with a pair of CPO Alexia 2's from JS Audio. Planning to replace the pre/power next, although at these price points they will be done one at a time.

The audition system (below)

DCS Bartok (non-Apex I think)
Wilson Alexia 1
Assorted Nordost cabling



First up was the D'Agostino combo. Very full bodied and rich sound. Comparing it to my existing gear at home significantly more detail and much, much much better bass control. My McCormack DNA-1 deluxe can't quite control the woofers of the Alexia 2's, this was iron-clad in the bass by comparison. The one knock against the D'Agostino gear was that the bass on some tracks sounded a tiny bit rounded. I don't want to say it was bloat but rather a slight loss of detail, like sanding a sharp edge to make it rounded.

Next up was the boulder 1110/1161. The presentation here was very different, a bit more recessed in the stage (like sitting 2-3 rows further back) and a bit thinner than the D'Agostino gear. On the other hand the sound was also faster and had more detail; small details in the music jumped out more with the Boulder gear. This really emphasized the rounded off feeling I had with the D'Agostino gear in the bass but across the entire audio range. It made me feel like the D'Agostino was trading detail for a fuller presentation. If I had to choose I preferred the Boulder presentation but did find myself wanting a bit of that fullness the D'Agostino offered.

Finally we replaced the 1161 with the 1160. I wasn't expecting there to be a meaningful difference aside from turning the volume down by 3db, but boy was I wrong. Within seconds of the first track the dealer muttered "I don't remember these being that different" and the difference between the two power amps was pretty stark. The 1160 completely cured the thinness the 1160 had but kept the speed and detail. It was pretty much the best of both worlds.

Definitely preferred the 1110/1160; the problem will be figuring out a way to pay for it. That last price increase on the 1160 was pretty painful and pushed it a bit out of reach.

 

[divertiti]

Thank you for the thorough report, it's always a good to hear about proper head to head comparisons. What you heard matches my own impressions from auditions and ownership. D'agostino gear is definitely not neutral by design, they always seem to want to inject their own brand of "body", which is not my cup of tea. Boulder's strengths is transparency, quietness, dynamics and control. I'm not surprised you heard that difference between the 1161 and 1160, 1161 is a lot closer to the 866 while the 1160 has potted transformer and a lot more overbuilt in comparison. I own the 1160 and that's the one piece in my system I don't second guess.

 

[itay123]

I've never been a fan of Krell/D'Agostino amps
Although I had a few.

If your dealer has the option to demonstrate Pilium (that can enter in your budget).
Dramatically better than what you demoed.

 

[heihei]

Ditto Audionet Scientist series - has fullness and speed

 

[chuck]

If your dealer has the option to demonstrate Pilium (that can enter in your budget).
Dramatically better than what you demoed.

I have heard the Pilium amps. They seemed to have trouble controlling the bass drivers on the Magico M9. I certainly did not hear anything dramatically better than my Boulder 1110/3060. Looking at the photos, the Pilium appears to be built like the D'Agostino amps with an older design and through hole construction, with lots of wires. The Boulder 1160 is a much newer design, using surface mount technology and is built like my 3060, that is why it has the speed and detail. I don't think there is any way the Pilium stereo amp will keep up with the Boulder 1160 but it would be interesting to compare.

 

[rangda]

I've heard very good things about Pilium amps but this particular dealer doesn't have them to audition. The amp will be the next step in the rebuilding of my 25 year old system and would mate with the result of the first step, a pair of Alexia 2's.

My current inclination is to go with the 1160 (and eventually a 1110). I have an existing relationship with this dealer (I bought the Alexia 2's as CPO from them) and they are willing to work with me on what would be a somewhat difficult purchase. Honestly that means as much as the gear itself.

What I found most interesting is just how stark the differences were. It took maybe 10 seconds to pick the 1110/1161 over the D'Agostino combo and even less than that to pick the 1160 over the 1161. I was expecting much more subtle shades of grey with a more squishy conclusion. I listened to each combo for maybe 30 minutes but really that was just confirming that my initial impression was lasting, and that the Boulder combo wasn't going to drive me from the room when playing some bad recordings (it did not). When he swapped from the D'Agostino to the Boulder the dealer remarked "just play that last track you played again, it will tell you everything you need to know" (Mich Fing Die Minne by Qntal). He was right.

 

[GSOphile]

I've heard very good things about Pilium amps but this particular dealer doesn't have them to audition. The amp will be the next step in the rebuilding of my 25 year old system and would mate with the result of the first step, a pair of Alexia 2's.

My current inclination is to go with the 1060 (and eventually a 1110). I have an existing relationship with this dealer (I bought the Alexia 2's as CPO from them) and they are willing to work with me on what would be a somewhat difficult purchase. Honestly that means as much as the gear itself.

What I found most interesting is just how stark the differences were. It took maybe 10 seconds to pick the 1110/1161 over the D'Agostino combo and even less than that to pick the 1160 over the 1161. I was expecting much more subtle shades of grey with a more squishy conclusion. I listened to each combo for maybe 30 minutes but really that was just confirming that my initial impression was lasting, and that the Boulder combo wasn't going to drive me from the room when playing some bad recordings (it did not). When he swapped from the D'Agostino to the Boulder the dealer remarked "just play that last track you played again, it will tell you everything you need to know" (Mich Fing Die Minne by Qntal). He was right.

I think you may find the 1160 to be a significant step up from the 1060, which has been criticized as being somewhat sterile in comparison.

 

[rangda]

I think you may find the 1160 to be a significant step up from the 1060, which has been criticized as being somewhat sterile in comparison.

Sorry for the confusion, the 1160 is the plan. 1060 was a typo in my last post (corrected).

 

[zuesman]

I'm in DC for Capital Audiofest and stopped into JS Audio today to compare "entry level" (using that term pretty loosely in this case) Boulder and D'Agostino gear. In this case the Progression pre/stereo power vs. Boulder 1110/1161 vs. Boulder 1110/1160.

Some context.

I've just begun the journey of upgrading most of the components in my system. My current system was built in the late 90's and consists of:

VPI TNT 3
Graham Phantom 2 (replaced a 2.0 that died and Bob no longer had parts to fix it)
Lyra Kleos
Herron VTPH-1 MC
Audio Research LS-25
Wilson Watt/Puppy 6

The Watt/Puppy 6's were replaced about a month ago with a pair of CPO Alexia 2's from JS Audio. Planning to replace the pre/power next, although at these price points they will be done one at a time.

The audition system (below)

DCS Bartok (non-Apex I think)
Wilson Alexia 1
Assorted Nordost cabling

View attachment 119569

First up was the D'Agostino combo. Very full bodied and rich sound. Comparing it to my existing gear at home significantly more detail and much, much much better bass control. My McCormack DNA-1 deluxe can't quite control the woofers of the Alexia 2's, this was iron-clad in the bass by comparison. The one knock against the D'Agostino gear was that the bass on some tracks sounded a tiny bit rounded. I don't want to say it was bloat but rather a slight loss of detail, like sanding a sharp edge to make it rounded.

Next up was the boulder 1110/1161. The presentation here was very different, a bit more recessed in the stage (like sitting 2-3 rows further back) and a bit thinner than the D'Agostino gear. On the other hand the sound was also faster and had more detail; small details in the music jumped out more with the Boulder gear. This really emphasized the rounded off feeling I had with the D'Agostino gear in the bass but across the entire audio range. It made me feel like the D'Agostino was trading detail for a fuller presentation. If I had to choose I preferred the Boulder presentation but did find myself wanting a bit of that fullness the D'Agostino offered.

Finally we replaced the 1161 with the 1160. I wasn't expecting there to be a meaningful difference aside from turning the volume down by 3db, but boy was I wrong. Within seconds of the first track the dealer muttered "I don't remember these being that different" and the difference between the two power amps was pretty stark. The 1160 completely cured the thinness the 1160 had but kept the speed and detail. It was pretty much the best of both worlds.

Definitely preferred the 1110/1160; the problem will be figuring out a way to pay for it. That last price increase on the 1160 was pretty painful and pushed it a bit out of reach.

if you really want to take it to the next level listen to the SIM audio 861 amplifier it beat the Dan D'agostino MVX momentum s250, The guy that wrote the review had both of these amps in his house comparing them for a month, after a month he said that the 861 was better in every area than the s250 and the s250 cost $44,000 US and the 861 cost $22,000 US and he said he was totally shocked that the double the price s250 was not as good so he sold it and kept the 861, I think the amp will be better than the the boulders as well.

 

[rangda]

if you really want to take it to the next level listen to the SIM audio 861 amplifier it beat the Dan D'agostino MVX momentum s250, The guy that wrote the review had both of these amps in his house comparing them for a month, after a month he said that the 861 was better in every area than the s250 and the s250 cost $44,000 US and the 861 cost $22,000 US and he said he was totally shocked that the double the price s250 was not as good so he sold it and kept the 861, I think the amp will be better than the the boulders as well.

You've basically posted this exact same post in 2 different threads, which sounds suspiciously like astroturfing a product...

1. Just because X > Y does not mean X > Z.
2. "Better" is largely subjective; at these price points everything should be "great" in an absolute sense and it's down to what pushes your buttons and what doesn't. In this particular case the Dag didn't push my buttons and the Boulder did; but I'm sure there are plenty of people for which it's the other way around.

FWIW I have nothing against SimAudio, I've heard nothing but good things about their products. But I've also never spent enough time with them (just audio shows) to form an opinion one way or the other as to whether said products push my buttons.

 

[zuesman]

You've basically posted this exact same post in 2 different threads, which sounds suspiciously like astroturfing a product...

1. Just because X > Y does not mean X > Z.
2. "Better" is largely subjective; at these price points everything should be "great" in an absolute sense and it's down to what pushes your buttons and what doesn't. In this particular case the Dag didn't push my buttons and the Boulder did; but I'm sure there are plenty of people for which it's the other way around.

FWIW I have nothing against SimAudio, I've heard nothing but good things about their products. But I've also never spent enough time with them (just audio shows) to form an opinion one way or the other as to whether said products push my buttons.

well Craig wrote the review on here so you can look it up The heading is Dan d'agostino momentum MVX s250 versus SIM audio 861 and I think after a month of comparing he would be able to tell the difference which one was better and in the review he said and I quote the 861 was better in every area than the s250 and he sold it and bought the 861, and his system is worth well over 100,000 US.

 

[Rumpole]

You've basically posted this exact same post in 2 different threads, which sounds suspiciously like astroturfing a product...

Probably better not to engage with him - on Audiogon he posted non-stop about how SIM audio is better than anything else. Insufferable. Hope we do not get a repeat of that thread here.

 

[zuesman]

Probably better not to engage with him - on Audiogon he posted non-stop about how SIM audio is better than anything else. Insufferable. Hope we do not get a repeat of that thread here.

first of all as usual you're lying Show me in any thread that I ever said that sim audio was better than anything else out there never once did I say that so if you're going to flap your gums at least tell the truth.

 

[TDX]

I'm in DC for Capital Audiofest and stopped into JS Audio today to compare "entry level" (using that term pretty loosely in this case) Boulder and D'Agostino gear. In this case the Progression pre/stereo power vs. Boulder 1110/1161 vs. Boulder 1110/1160.

Some context.

I've just begun the journey of upgrading most of the components in my system. My current system was built in the late 90's and consists of:

VPI TNT 3
Graham Phantom 2 (replaced a 2.0 that died and Bob no longer had parts to fix it)
Lyra Kleos
Herron VTPH-1 MC
Audio Research LS-25
Wilson Watt/Puppy 6

The Watt/Puppy 6's were replaced about a month ago with a pair of CPO Alexia 2's from JS Audio. Planning to replace the pre/power next, although at these price points they will be done one at a time.

The audition system (below)

DCS Bartok (non-Apex I think)
Wilson Alexia 1
Assorted Nordost cabling

View attachment 119569

First up was the D'Agostino combo. Very full bodied and rich sound. Comparing it to my existing gear at home significantly more detail and much, much much better bass control. My McCormack DNA-1 deluxe can't quite control the woofers of the Alexia 2's, this was iron-clad in the bass by comparison. The one knock against the D'Agostino gear was that the bass on some tracks sounded a tiny bit rounded. I don't want to say it was bloat but rather a slight loss of detail, like sanding a sharp edge to make it rounded.

Next up was the boulder 1110/1161. The presentation here was very different, a bit more recessed in the stage (like sitting 2-3 rows further back) and a bit thinner than the D'Agostino gear. On the other hand the sound was also faster and had more detail; small details in the music jumped out more with the Boulder gear. This really emphasized the rounded off feeling I had with the D'Agostino gear in the bass but across the entire audio range. It made me feel like the D'Agostino was trading detail for a fuller presentation. If I had to choose I preferred the Boulder presentation but did find myself wanting a bit of that fullness the D'Agostino offered.

Finally we replaced the 1161 with the 1160. I wasn't expecting there to be a meaningful difference aside from turning the volume down by 3db, but boy was I wrong. Within seconds of the first track the dealer muttered "I don't remember these being that different" and the difference between the two power amps was pretty stark. The 1160 completely cured the thinness the 1160 had but kept the speed and detail. It was pretty much the best of both worlds.

Definitely preferred the 1110/1160; the problem will be figuring out a way to pay for it. That last price increase on the 1160 was pretty painful and pushed it a bit out of reach.

Great writing, looking forward for some updates from you.

 

[zuesman]

Great writing, looking forward for some updates from you.

you definitely need to listen to the SIM audio 861 amplifier there's a review on here from Craig who compared his Dan dagostino momentum MVX s250 to the SIM audio 861 for a month and after that he said that the 861 was better than the s250 in every area and the s250 cost $44,000 US and the 861 cost $22,000 US and he goes on to say in his review that he wasn't expecting the 861 to be that much better considering the s250 was double the price, and I have no doubt the amplifier will also beat the boulder and their preamp which is the 850p which I believe is about 40,000 US I think will be better as well. definitely not cheap You're looking at $60,000 US for the two pieces. but the amp is definitely worth listening to especially at that price.

 

[itay123]

As someone who has tried Dagostino amps and heard several Boulder based setup's and is well acquainted with the suggestions that were suggested here, I highly recommend going to hear PILIUM as well. In my opinion, it is better than anything that was suggested, and from my experience in To listen and interpret what I hear and understand the capabilities.

good luck.

 

[TDX]

As someone who has tried Dagostino amps and heard several Boulder based setup's and is well acquainted with the suggestions that were suggested here, I highly recommend going to hear PILIUM as well. In my opinion, it is better than anything that was suggested, and from my experience in To listen and interpret what I hear and understand the capabilities.

good luck.

I wonder the difference between Boulder and Pilium.

 

[itay123]

I wonder the difference between Boulder and Pilium.

Both companies are in the highest caliber, however there are definitely differences between them.
I found to my ears that Pilium are quieter, clearer, warmer and ultimately more natural.

 

[zuesman]

As someone who has tried Dagostino amps and heard several Boulder based setup's and is well acquainted with the suggestions that were suggested here, I highly recommend going to hear PILIUM as well. In my opinion, it is better than anything that was suggested, and from my experience in To listen and interpret what I hear and understand the capabilities.

good luck.

Have you heard the new SIM audio 861? I highly doubt that the Pilium will be better because of the new circuitry that they've developed. this is the only a/ab amp that I know of that uses no global or local feedback on the market right now.

 

[itay123]

Sorry I never fell from sim audio's sound
Very mediocre sound for my taste and ears.