KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

Ron Resnick

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Isn’t it possible that the reason Sean and John don’t go in the M-T-M direction is not because it is not or cannot be theoretically superior, but rather because they feel that to build such a design correctly would price the resulting speaker too far above their target markets?

I take as interesting and possibly instructive that not one but several companies’ top of the line offerings implement full D’Appolito (e.g. Evolution Acoustics, Rockport, Goebel, Gryphon) or partial M-T-M (e.g., YG, Verity) designs.

Keith, sorry I was not meaning to be annoying.

Folsom, I simply think that height is required to recreate convincingly the scale and grandeur of the soundstage of a full symphony orchestra.
 

spiritofmusic

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In answer to yr Q, no. Sean made no mention of price constraints. He was adamant there are purely design based reasons to not go this route. He was quite specific about this.

I don't see anyone complaining about the Wilson Chronosonic not being D'Appolito.
 

Ron Resnick

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In answer to yr Q, no. Sean made no mention of price constraints. He was adamant there are purely design based reasons to not go this route. He was quite specific about this.

. . .

Fair enough. :)

I truly would be interested to learn his objections to or sonic concerns about the D’Appolito design.
 
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Ron Resnick

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spiritofmusic

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Better not buy a pr, then.
 

morricab

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I think that it's not definitively optimal to place bass top and bottom, and this introduces compromises (v hard to do well, and can scupper rest of the design).

Bass needs it's own specific solution, not to be dictated by an arbitrary rule.
What are you talking about?? Seriously...
 

morricab

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In answer to yr Q, no. Sean made no mention of price constraints. He was adamant there are purely design based reasons to not go this route. He was quite specific about this.

I don't see anyone complaining about the Wilson Chronosonic not being D'Appolito.
Well, it is M-M-T-M-M, which is sort of d'Appolitoish. I think strictly speaking to be true d'Appolito it has to use 3rd order butterworth filters, which means that most M-T-M arrays are not true d'Appolito anyway.
 

spiritofmusic

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What are you talking about?? Seriously...
Ron continually extols tall spkrs in D'Appolito configuration. My post was to say at least one designer doesn't favour this, and feels bass drivers top and bottom don't convey any advantage, indeed v easy to get this wrong. Just relaying what I heard when I suggested to him like Ron does, that surely this way is best.
 

bazelio

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Are there any technical details from the guy about what makes D'Appolito sub-optimal and how those technical details translate to audible artifacts (in his opinion)? This he said / she said discussion is fairly useless otherwise.
 

spiritofmusic

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Keith, I'm more a goalkeeper, but point taken.
 
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Leif S

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Well, it is M-M-T-M-M, which is sort of d'Appolitoish. I think strictly speaking to be true d'Appolito it has to use 3rd order butterworth filters, which means that most M-T-M arrays are not true d'Appolito anyway.
Filter type has absolutely nothing to do with this
 

Leif S

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Has nothing to do with what, Leif? Your response is pretty vague.
How is it vague. You stated in your post that strictly speaking to be true d'Appolito it has to be a 3rd. order Butterworth filters....This is completely inaccurate. What does filter type have to do with an M-T-M configuration? I wasn't trying to create an argument I'm just simply stating that the order of a circuit isn't what determines if an M-T-M functions properly. Nevermind, please disregard my comment.
 
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KeithR

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How is it vague. You stated in your post that strictly speaking to be true d'Appolito it has to be a 3rd. order Butterworth filters....This is completely inaccurate. What does filter type have to do with an M-T-M configuration? I wasn't trying to create an argument I'm just simply stating that the order of a circuit isn't what determines if an M-T-M functions properly. Nevermind, please disregard my comment.

Please don't, Leif. Your comments as a real speaker designer are actually relevant unlike amateur hour on this thread.
 

Leif S

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Please don't, Leif. Your comments as a real speaker designer are actually relevant unlike amateur hour on this thread.
Thank you Keith. I know for me that reading things can sometimes come off the wrong way and that is never my intention and is in good spirit.
 
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DaveC

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D'Appolito is MTM but not all MTM are D'Appolito.

The original D'Appolito did indeed specify a 3rd order xo but later he decided 4th was better.

Lief could say more about the differences in sound, but from my limited experience the MTM will avoid ceiling/floor reflections and give you more direct vs reflected sound, more of a nearfield experience in larger rooms and sitting further away from the speakers. I'd also think height of the LP is more critical.
 
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morricab

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How is it vague. You stated in your post that strictly speaking to be true d'Appolito it has to be a 3rd. order Butterworth filters....This is completely inaccurate. What does filter type have to do with an M-T-M configuration? I wasn't trying to create an argument I'm just simply stating that the order of a circuit isn't what determines if an M-T-M functions properly. Nevermind, please disregard my comment.
Original work from Joe was that it was with 3rd order butterworth filter. The lobing Pattern of an MTM changes with the filter design quite a lot and originally only 3rd order B was true d’Appolito. Later Joe showed a 4th order design as well.
 

Leif S

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Original work from Joe was that it was with 3rd order butterworth filter. The lobing Pattern of an MTM changes with the filter design quite a lot and originally only 3rd order B was true d’Appolito. Later Joe showed a 4th order design as well.
Well this makes a little more sense and thanks for the clarification. I'm not going to go into detail of why speakers have lobing but you can design an MTM using any filter as long as the drivers chosen will accept that filter. There are so many factors involved to why we choose the filters that are implemented in the design. Lobing can be an artifact of a crossover simply not working correctly in relation to the drivers among other factors.
 
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KeithR

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For @tima, @Tango, and all:

You guys asked for an executive summary - well I've been thinking much about my auditions in light of many of the comments here, discussions with audiophile friends, as well as reflecting on my audio goals. I started out seemingly wanting something simple - tone, dynamics, and soundstage with a lesser focus on coherency and bass. What I've discovered is that I'm a tube guy at heart and its very difficult for me to go in a different direction.

I can say the best audition I've had is the YG Sonja 2.2 on ARC/D'agostino in Alma Audio's incredible room. The issue is the Sonja just isn't a tube-friendly speaker and that gnaws at me. While I feel the combo I heard works very well - its one I don't value enough to spend on in this hobby. Also, hearing other YGs in different setups in the past few months I feel there are fewer paths for success. I had considered Lamm hybrids for example - but what if they don't work? Then I'm stuck auditioning high power SS monos - not my cup of tea- and at substantial cost. In fact, DarTZeel is my favorite SS amp and the 108 won't work here. So even at this league of gear, there are compromises. I'll also note that long term I have always returned to tubes. Therefore, while I really enjoy the YG sound I feel the risk is too high as is the potential $ investment.

The Rockports, Wilsons, and Stenheims were good but not actionable. I can see others liking each for various reasons- a Harbeth lover would go to Stenheim first, a transparency enthusiast might prefer a Rockport, and a guy who loves dynamics and big bass of course will go to the Wilson line. But none of these relaxed me in the way two speakers did - YG and Gamut, two very different designs but where I feel their superior coherency is the difference. I think the reason for this is that Zu and Devore have been in my stable for so long and I'm used to "flow" and lack of mechanical nature that @bonzo75 refers to often. Perhaps I need to grab @Ron Resnick and go hear the big Gamuts after all.

I also have an affinity for horns and while it took forever to hear a pair again - got good exposure at the Long Beach show and learned that horn bass may not be for me but that they do soundstage well and are known for tone and dynamics. Therefore, I decided to move forward with an Avantgarde session - whom I originally had passed up for Cessaro - and may ironically be the best for my listening habits. Bass quality has more importance to me now that it did when I started this journey.

And what if AG isn't the bees knees? I'll likely wait for John Devore's trickle down O Reference technology to catch up with his future designs. This may be disappointing for a forum journey where a "happily ever after" ending is enjoyed, but $50,000 is an enormous sum in this hobby and it has to be 100% right for me to jump. I'm not suffering with what I have currently - that I *can* confirm.
 
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