KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

christensenleif@msn.com said:

christoph, I see you have Universum, made by Auto-Tech in Poland
their horns are incredibly well made
my JMLC 270 full rollback on TAD 4003 are incredible dead and the aerodynamics from the rollback makes the airflow let go of the horn in a way that doesn´t generate any turbulance or honk...only horn I´ve heard with absolutely no horn signature...
properly cnc´d adapters helps too...

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KeithR said:

Avantgarde Duo XDs-

My speaker journey continues – originally, I wanted to demo Cessaro horns but through a host of issues ended up hearing Tune Audio horns instead at a recent hifi show. While they weren’t my cup of tea due to horn coloration and lack of bass, I was encouraged by the dynamics and soundstage they presented. Therefore I decided to search out an Avantgarde demo – which blends a horn with active bass module with in-house DSP vs the other two brands. The mid-range horn is typically crossed over at quite a low 170hz.

As it turns out, a London AG dealer had a pair and I procured a demo last week while on holiday. The Duo XD horns are gorgeous in person – despite their much larger size than in the photos. While aesthetics isn’t important for some, it is necessary for me as my speakers are an integral part of a living room vs. a man cave. The soft blue looked great and better than the sharper blue of AGs of yesteryear – I would love to see the bronze version as well. They were setup pretty near the corners and only about 6” from the wall in a 14x18’ room that had some angles in the corners so wasn’t quite symmetrical. The dealer had optimized settings for this room with a +3 bass push and 30hz higher crossover point than normal. He told me this was the best AG had sounded since they became a dealer in October of last year and they had spent the past 24 hours dialing them in more.

I usually ask for the dealer to put on a few cuts so I can adjust to the speakers before playing my reference tracks. We started off with some simple Miles Davis “So What.” The Siltech preamp and Nagra 300p amplifier were used with a Nagra HD dac and Aurender streamer. I soon moved on to streaming my music, starting off with Jason Isbell and Johnny Cash male vocals with a keen ear on horn coloration. I couldn’t hear any, so we were off to a good start. What I did hear was excellent presence – vocals were appropriately sized still, but took good shape in front off me (and weren’t hanging/dripping as some SET amps like to do and was the case in my Tune Audio demo). The amp/speaker combination was quite neutral – in fact, after a bunch of similar cuts from Christian McBride to Andrew Bird, I quipped that a hair more warmth/texture would be ideal. I note now, that the JJ 300bs are known to be lean in the upper midrange but with excellent bass. What I did find that tonality was very sweet on some Max Richter and other related violins- the highs were clearly not sibilant which was another horn worry I had.

Next I went through my classical and electronica arsenal – I was entirely surprised. There has been a lot of conversation on this thread that horns suck for rock and electronica. Well, they don’t. Instead a nice soundstage was presented with instruments that really popped off the landscape. I actually reached for more electronica than normal with Air, etc as these speakers were really compelling on the genre. Small sounds in the cuts really pop, the sound was extremely enveloping, and I got deep, tight bass that wasn’t staring at me from the floor like with a Martin Logan. I did notice that certain instruments were more on the horn or that they didn’t disappear like my Devores – however, this was effectively countered by the micro dynamics. You really didn’t care as much as instruments were freed from the speaker. This was particularly noticeable on Natalia Lafourcade cuts that I use with guitars that really project forward. I have a sneaky feeling that having the horns 3’ from the rear wall would be much better despite horn fans saying it isn’t. Overall I came into the audition expecting a small sound stage, but did not find that to be the case. I do think you trade some depth for dynamics however.

Sound was big, open, and dynamic. There was a “liveness” in the soundstage that was very compelling. I’m assuming this is due to the extreme sensitivity of the speakers. I will say that on my Explosions in the Sky “wailing guitar” track with tons of distortion pedals involved that there was some harshness. I left wondering if that was actually on the recording, that other speakers are kinder to it, or that this was the JJ tubes. What I can say is that Avantgardes are not going to like a dead neutral amplifier or SS in general. I just think they need a warm of neutral amp (like a YG ironically). Flow never seemed to bother me either – and on horns, that leading edge can be so fast that they require an amplifier that does proper decay like the Nagra. On strings, you really felt the undulation of the bowing project.

Speaking of flow, let’s talk about coherency. The issue with AGs since the beginning is the horns are too fast for the paper bass woofers – and therefore you can hear the handoff. Well I am happy to report that I tried my darndest on several brutal cuts (solo piano, string bass, etc) and couldn’t hear it. This was encouraging and I feel the XD technology makes the difference here. I will say that the bass may have been a hair much for that room, but I typically like a bit shelved down low end these days. The beauty of an active speaker (like I had with Zu) is that’s easy to accomplish. AG has many more settings than a traditional subwoofer from what I’ve been told – and you send in your room acoustics from a microphone kit and they will send back a recommended setting list.

So where does that leave the AG? If one wants a pinpoint imaging, totally disappearing speaker, with razor-like detail then this isn’t one’s speaker at all. But if enveloping sound that has a live element is your thing the Duo XD is hard to beat. I texted my friend @jeffrey_t after that they “sounded pretty rad” if you guys want the unofficial reaction. Will this replace the Devore? I have not made an official decision as I’d like to come back to my room and do more listening after this experience (my ARC has been in the shop to replace a light and receive back today). I can say if I decide to upgrade that I am inclined to go in this direction. I do think AGs are finicky with amps, so there is some work to do on that front.

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christensenleif@msn.com said:

sry couldn´t find...
Exlibris what speakers are you talking about 23-28-33?

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Willgolf said:

Did you consider the hORNS Symphonies?

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Exlibris said:

I didn't. That's largely because they aren't available in my country and I don't know anybody who has heard them.

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christoph said:

Your choice is very good. The Odeon No. 33 is excellent.
The Symphony is not in the in the league of the 33 but then again, the Symphony is not even half the price

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Exlibris said:

I didn't. That's largely because they aren't available in my country and I don't know anybody who has heard them.

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bonzo75 said:

Have you heard the symphony outside Munich?

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Exlibris said:

I didn't. That's largely because they aren't available in my country and I don't know anybody who has heard them.

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christensenleif@msn.com said:

there´s no commercial horn system, that comes even close to some of the all out DIY systems here in the Oslo fjord area
ok then, maybe Olympian

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christensenleif@msn.com said:

christoph, I see you have Universum, made by Auto-Tech in Poland
their horns are incredibly well made
my JMLC 270 full rollback on TAD 4003 are incredible dead and the aerodynamics from the rollback makes the airflow let go of the horn in a way that doesn´t generate any turbulance or honk...only horn I´ve heard with absolutely no horn signature...
properly cnc´d adapters helps too...

Click to expand...

jeffrey_t said:

Can you post pics of the entire speaker?

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bonzo75 said:

I have. With different amps. I put up the pics on Keith's thread and the set amps thread. There is an ex dem pair available at 9k in the EU. They are not as good as uni, I prefer them to the duo and I prefer them to the Odeon. But I wouldn't say I prefer them to vintage tannoy or devore (to which I prefer universum).

Why don't you try to tap the DIY community in Canada and see what they have, someone might surprise you big time

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christensenleif@msn.com said:

what about Tune Audio?
https://www.tuneaudio.com/audio-product/tune-audio-anima/

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Exlibris said:

If there were a pair here in Canada I would definitely make the effort to go and hear them. They seem to be a rather polarizing speaker.

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Exlibris said:

Space is really tight in my place. I don't doubt that very large DIY horns might sound better but I just can't have them in my condo. I suspect the Odeon 33 will really dominate the place in terms of both size and appearance.

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christensenleif@msn.com said:

what about Tune Audio?
https://www.tuneaudio.com/audio-product/tune-audio-anima/

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jeffrey_t said:

Keith, Ron and I heard the Tune Anima at the Long Beach audio show and were underwhelmed. My belief is that the room was too small for the drivers to align properly. Also, the listening position was with your chair back against the rear wall with nothing to stop immediate reflections from this back wall.

For Keith, they lacked the bass extension and weight that he requires for his electronica.

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