New Ref 6SE and Ref 750SEL

ayreman

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Not one decent cap in the entire preamp and they charge you an arm and a leg for this... Disgraceful, utterly disgraceful. Only idiots will upgrade to 6SE. The smart ones will buy quality caps, mod the crap out their Ref 6 and hear it outperform Ref 10 for a fraction of the price...
 
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Bobvin

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Not one decent cap in the entire preamp and they charge you an arm and a leg for this... Disgraceful, utterly disgraceful. Only idiots will upgrade to 6SE. The smart ones will buy quality caps, mod the crap out their Ref 6 and hear it outperform Ref 10 for a fraction of the price...

Perhaps, if you have bought second-hand or don't give a damn about your warranty, AND you are an experienced electronics technician with terrific soldering skills.

Then again, there are the "idiots" out here who, unlike the genius you must be, have no interest in potentially dropping a hot soldering iron onto the circuit board and F-ing up the whole damn thing. I guess I am one of those "idiots" (and its OK if I call myself one, but you on the other hand I challenge to say that to my face. You might wish to tame your hyperbole.)
 

ayreman

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Perhaps, if you have bought second-hand or don't give a damn about your warranty, AND you are an experienced electronics technician with terrific soldering skills.

Then again, there are the "idiots" out here who, unlike the genius you must be, have no interest in potentially dropping a hot soldering iron onto the circuit board and F-ing up the whole damn thing. I guess I am one of those "idiots" (and its OK if I call myself one, but you on the other hand I challenge to say that to my face. You might wish to tame your hyperbole.)
1. I did NOT buy second-hand. I bought my Ref Ann brand you - straight from the ARC factory exactly 10 years ago.
2. You are right - I don't give a damn about warranty. I never did. 3 years after I bought my Ref Ann 2 crappy Nichicon caps leaked right onto the PCB and one swelled into a mushroom-shaped monster. Under my warranty ARC was ready to send me a handful of new Nichicons - more crap to put into my Ref Ann. Who in their right mind would value such "warranty"?!
3. No, I am NOT an experienced electronics technician with terrific soldering skills. I don't need to be. If I can afford to buy a brand-new Ref Ann, I can surely afford to hire one!;) And I did!!
4. You have no idea how your Ref 10 could sound. So far you've been hearing 15-20% of its full potential. Very few audiophiles understand one simple truth: it's not the schematic that sounds - it's the parts! And the parts in your Ref 10 (and my original Ref Ann) are complete and utter crap:rolleyes:
5. I accept your challenge but I will not "tame my hyperbole" for one simple reason - I despise "political correctness" and prefer calling a spade a spade. If I hurt your feelings - I apologize. But deep down I'm sure of one thing - you don't want to hear sweet lies. Truth is always better - even when it is unpleasant to hear...
 

Bobvin

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Good for you.

I have no doubt swapping components may improve the performance of any piece of audio gear. But a commitment to that gear is required, in my opinion, as modded gear is harder to sell. Hell, people often won't buy something with the smallest of scratches hidden in unseen places.

That some people will choose factory upgrades vs. your path does not make them idiots. The upgrade may or may not be worth the investment, but it is their call to make. Not everyone is interested in the kind of deep dive you clearly enjoy, regardless of their IQ.
 
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christoph

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Bob, who are you adressing with those two Posts above this one?
 

ayreman

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But a commitment to that gear is required, in my opinion, as modded gear is harder to sell.
What? Selling modded gear??? Why on earth would you ever want to sell it?! If you mod your Ref 10 the way I modded my Ref Ann, you wouldn't want to sell it even if you were offered $200000 for it! The whole point of modding it is making it out of reach for all competitive/alternative options for many decades ahead. I thought the idea of modding was obvious and clear as day!
 

ayreman

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That some people will choose factory upgrades vs. your path does not make them idiots.
What? Factory upgrades?? What are you talking about?! It's a marketing ploy designed to extort money from gullible audiophiles! You swap Ref 6 for Ref 6SE to get 5-10% SQ improvement. What in heaven's name is the point? You do the mods at the scale I did - and you get 300% SQ improvement! Don't you understand?
 

lem321

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I am such an IDIOT for wanting to do a factory upgrade of my Ref 6 for only a 10% improvement! If I were smart, I would replace those caps myself. Just not a “stable genius” I guess, only a gullible audiophile. Those ARC engineers are really idiots making tube products for over 50 years with such complete and utter crap parts, without one decent cap. All those awards don’t mean a darn thing - just ask me. REALLY, if I were smart, I would never sell my modded equipment even for $200,000 as it’s a 300% improvement over the stock version and I’m not exaggerating, REALLY! ;)

1579980008292.png
 
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thedudeabides

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It seems that AR releases "new / improved" models on a somewhat frequent basis but maybe this is typical for the industry. Think I'll start a new thread on this topic. Having said that and will all due respect to AR fans, does the new and improved Ref 6SE contain tech and / or hardware that was not available when the Ref 6 was initially released? I assume better caps and better wire were available and were not used.
 

lem321

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Feb 7, 2014
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It seems that AR releases "new / improved" models on a somewhat frequent basis but maybe this is typical for the industry. Think I'll start a new thread on this topic. Having said that and will all due respect to AR fans, does the new and improved Ref 6SE contain tech and / or hardware that was not available when the Ref 6 was initially released? I assume better caps and better wire were available and were not used.

It would be interesting to see how frequently different companies release "new/improved" models and whether these provided substantive improvements in SQ. Audio Research released the Reference 5 linestage in 2009, the Ref 5SE in 2011, the Ref 6 in 2015 and the Ref 6SE in late 2019. Based on my own experience, the Ref 6 provided a substantive jump in sound quality from my previous Ref 5SE.

That's a great question regarding the prior availability of the new upgraded 6SE parts. To quote from the ARC website:

The Reference 6SE replaces the Reference 6 and offers the highest performance ever available in a single-chassis preamplifier. Benefitting from the development that went into the Reference 160-series amplifiers, and the latest Reference 750SEL, the 6SE incorporates a myriad of new parts that have been judiciously incorporated into its design. The final 6SE would not have been possible without these revolutionary amplifiers.

My guess would be that the new caps may have been available but the wiring, according to information in post #15, was custom-designed by ARC, perhaps in their development of their highly regarded 160-series amplifiers. The real question would be whether these 6SE "improvements" were known at the time of the Ref 6's release and not whether the actual hardware (e.g. caps) were available. I think not as it is hard to imagine any company not incorporating the best possible technology/design/parts at the time of a new product's release in this very competitive marketplace. It would be foolish IMO for a company to withhold known improvements so that they could charge their customers 4 years later for an upgrade (if that's the point of your question). I applaud ARC for making these evolutionary upgrades available to their customers, though not cheap but more cost-efficient than buying a whole new product.
 

ayreman

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Naive children populate this forum. Not addicted-to-best mature grown-ups. Sad, really sad...:(
 
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tima

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Roughly 2+ years between the Ref 5 (2009) and the 5SE (2011). Between the 5SE and the 6 (2015) was around 4 years. From Ref 6 to 6SE, about 4+ years. Ref 7 could be 2022 or 2024.

I haven't heard the 6SE yet. I did think the Ref 5 to Ref 5SE offered more than a 5-10% sound quality improvement, likewise for the Ref 2 to Ref 2SE.

Should be quite obvious now what the Ref 10 and Ref Phono 10 replacements will be.
 

Bobvin

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Naive children populate this forum. Not addicted-to-best mature grown-up. Sad, really sad...:(

That you think modifying your gear “beyond recognition” is the way to go, is all great and good. Tell us more about those mods if you like, but stop insulting people, it really is unwelcome.
 

ayreman

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That you think modifying your gear “beyond recognition” is the way to go, is all great and good. Tell us more about those mods if you like, but stop insulting people, it really is unwelcome.
I did tell and posted a ton of pics about how I modded my Ref Ann in a designated thread I specially created for that. What good is it? Who read it or learnt anything from it? People (whom "I insult") are too busy waiting for the next SE edition:rolleyes: and can't wait to spend their money on it. And since "new editions" come out every 3-4 years (see tima's post above), people whom "I insult" spend their lives buying and selling! They have no time to read my thread:D
 

parkcaka

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Modding an already accomplished hifi equipment (or a car etc.) needs serious expertise and knowledge as well as deep interest on the subject. There is nothing wrong with pursuing this path. I am sure its mentally rewarding as well. I have audiophile friends with crazy modding skills. I admire them.

The thing is, personally, I don't have the time nor interest for mastering the modding craft. I need to invest tens of hours to know what I am doing. When I took the value of my time into account, giving 3-4K USD on an upgrade to a company is actually cheap for me. They really do the hard work, make the necessary improvements to a point and I reap the reward as a simple audiophile.

It all depends on your interest on the subject and value of time. If you are very interested, then you don't count it as lost hours. You have fun modding. But if you are like me, you have to "pay me" to make me learn modding my equipment. I'm not doing it for free. It's too much time keeping me away from my system listening to music.

Bottom line for me is, mastering the craft of modding equipments is admirable. On the other hand, we, who just want to listen to music and have fun in this hobby are not "idiots" for having the means to pay somebody else to do the hard work.

With love and respect.
 

Bobvin

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I did tell and posted a ton of pics about how I modded my Ref Ann in a designated thread I specially created for that. What good is it? Who read it or learnt anything from it? People (whom "I insult") are too busy waiting for the next SE edition:rolleyes: and can't wait to spend their money on it. And since "new editions" come out every 3-4 years (see tima's post above), people whom "I insult" spend their lives buying and selling! They have no time to read my thread:D

I read your thread then, and have re-read your thread again, and for all the people who responded to your thread, I’m sure many more read and did not respond.

I am not a person with any electronics background, don’t know a cap from a choke, so the investment in learning would need to be substantial for me to consider going down the path you have.

I expect improving the guts of just about any piece of kit would improve performance, but there would also be a lot of downtime while underway. Time and parts costs—perhaps just buy different gear to begin with and spend the time enjoying music? But, if digging in is your thing, go for it, you seem to be pleased with the results.
 

ayreman

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Jan 2, 2017
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parkcaka, Bobvin, I never suggested you should master the art of electronics engineering to mod your gear yourself. There is no need. Just like you two, I "don't know a cap from a choke" because I'm a linguist. The thing to do is to hire an experienced tech and let him do the simple task of replacing the crap parts in your gear with the best you can afford/find/fit into the available space. Period. I never changed anything in the design of the schematic. All is intact because ARC designers are outstanding. Too bad they are given junk to work with...

I suggest we stop flogging the dead horse. Some are content with climbing hills and will always find excuses. Some are truly addicted to best, have to conquer the Everest and find ways of doing that...
 

tima

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I "don't know a cap from a choke" because I'm a linguist. The thing to do is to hire an experienced tech and let him do the simple task of replacing the crap parts in your gear with the best you can afford/find/fit into the available space.

If you don't know a capacitor from a choke, your talk of "the crap parts in your gear" is based on what?
 

parkcaka

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Sep 11, 2016
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With due respect Ayreman, I can't give my new 15K USD Preamp to my local experienced technician and tell him "please replace the crap parts in my gear with the best I can afford/find/fit into the available space". These electronics are designed in a specific way to have a characteristic that we love and chose in the first place. The best part I can afford is generally not the wise way to go in this hobby. Over and over again we experienced that putting together the best components together do not make the best system. They are major disappointments. It's the same with parts.

The only personal mod I did to my electronic was changing the resistors on my Diesis Caput Mundi speakers. There are many "the best" resistors out there (Mundorf, Path etc.). They all sound different. There is actually no best in it. I needed to do my homework and I chose the best one that suits the rest of my system and my taste. This is just one resistor we are talking about. I can't imagine the idea of my local tech guy changing most parts in my 15K use preamp by just picking what is best out there. I can't bet on that.

Best, Cagdas.
 

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