I am sick of failing amplifiers

Atmasphere

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I will throw a glimmer of hope. When I did have the Black Shadow in, I did note they were producing the most pure and natural violins and horns my system has reproduced yet. There were blend issues with my speakers. And whistling microphonics, I believe mostly from the failing capacitors. I guess that is the real reason I sent them to be upgraded. I think the base product and circuit has the potential to be a fantastic amp. And I think the guys at True Audiophile are excellent backers of the product.

FWIW failing capacitors do not cause whistling sounds. That's the result of microphonic tubes. If the filter capacitors in the power supply are failing, you might hear a hum and it certainly won't sound right.

BTW the Casablanca should be pretty reliable. I didn't see anything in there that would have suggested a reliability issue. So I think you'll find that they hold together just fine.
 

KeithR

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Well, the Black Shadow are in the mail to be repaired. True Audiophile, the importer has had a field day of laughs over me. You paid what, those tubes are garbage, those amps are so old they needs a total overhaul. I feel the fool but hey, every crowd has one. Not sure why I didn't just dump them for a fair price and take the loss. In order to get them to spec I will be into them for more than a new set.

If I learned anything, when you buy a used amp, demand the serial number and ensure you know what you are getting. I took forum chatter from the seller and extrapolated what I thought was truth. The serial numbers told a different story. Had I asked I would have known more.

I hope these amps turn out. True Audiophile says they are one of the best amps Audion makes. Just the version I got are so far behind the curve. This transaction is really making me question ever buying anything used again. Who knows what trash your getting. Who had had their hands in. What did they do. Did they abuse it. Has it had non factory tech messing with it. I was going to get a used SS amp but I'm now thinking no. Buying used is a bad idea. Most everything I got new has been a blessing. Accept for the Casablanca. The used stuff has not been the success I hoped for. Well, my PAP Trio 15 have worked out. But I don't have factory support.. And the owner forum is on Facebook. I won't touch that site. I don't even use Prime at Whole Foods. I have an account for work, but I won't give them my phone. Have you read the small print.

I will throw a glimmer of hope. When I did have the Black Shadow in, I did note they were producing the most pure and natural violins and horns my system has reproduced yet. There were blend issues with my speakers. And whistling microphonics, I believe mostly from the failing capacitors. I guess that is the real reason I sent them to be upgraded. I think the base product and circuit has the potential to be a fantastic amp. And I think the guys at True Audiophile are excellent backers of the product.

Seems like you have an axe to grind. Your amps were checked out by Bob Hovland before sent to you, not just "some tech." I've personally heard these Black Shadows for 10 years - even had them in my system. I can tell you the seller you purchased the amps from is one of the most honest people I've ever met in audio and a half dozen people on this forum would vouch for him. Sounds like True Audiophile is selling you a bag of goods and just wants your $.
 
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Kingrex

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This is the cap. I hope Ralph is wrong. 3 sets of E88cc were whistling. When the cap was replaced, the whistle for the most part stopped. One set let a little squeel out for 5 seconds then stopped. These tubes are dead quiet in my preamp. All were tested.

One ground connection on the input was never soldered. That is why I suspect after market silver wiring was installed that I "feel" I was lead to believe was factory silver path wiring. It was not part of the original amp. I believe if I dig through a thread I can find mention these were the $12k amps. They are not. They are level 5 base product. The serial number told the story. "I believe" the reference to the value is based upon after market alterations.

Look. I did not specifically ask. Its bad on me. If I had asked I would have offered less or walked away. I made the mistake of wanting to believe and did not specifically drill down, ask, and circle back with reference to forum chain conversations. That is a personal fault of mine. I run on faith. If I were to turn these around, I would have said they are modified base level amps with after market alterations. (I was told they were modified) They have ground issues and are hyper sensitive to tube selection. $2500. I paid $4500. I think that is too much for 19 year old amps that cost $7500 new. I have seen other Black Shadow 2, around 5 years old or so for $5,000.

Per my glimmer of hope, I hear what they are capable of. The base product is a solid foundation. The rub for me is bringing it up to snuff will be a total in of around $8,000. A brand new BS2 level 5 base product is $7,500.

Lastly, whatever was done to the amps left them with a nasty ground fault. This amp is not suppose to require a cheater to calm an enormous ground issue. The seller did send me a set of Ebtech HumX. That was solid of him. In my opinion it should not be necessary. The circuit should work right. Not be cobbled together and ground lift required. This was a big driver for my sending them in to have the circuit brought back to spec. Sure sure sure, all sorts of tube guys use cheaters. In my system I know I don't have ground loops. These amps actually roared when a shorting plug was in the input and the amp only had a power cord and speaker cable connected. When you turned both on they were loud as heck out the speakers. Darnedest thing. Lifting the ground killed much of it. Weird.

I believe Marc at True Audiophile when he says these are special amps and they will make them right and safe. As they are they run. But I don't think they run at an out of the box, set and forget. That was what I expected. They do present well enough I will spend the $3000 to $3500 for shall I say upgrades and repairs. Possibly more. Mine are so old I believe they have the erector set power supply suspension that has been replaced by a more solid and damped support structure that should eliminate some of the internal mechanical feedback noise you hear from these. There is an uncomfortable rush buried in the sound with these. The same sound I have heard go away on other amps when the transformers were isolated and on my speakers when the crossover was removed from the frame and remote mounted. The result is a greater sense of relaxation and liquid beauty. Gone is the edge you can't really put your finger on why its there. These amps have that edge. I got rid of some of it when I found one amp was missing the isolators that the power tube socket mounted on. I put a set back in and immediately heard the calming difference.
 

Kingrex

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Now that you got me thinking about it all. My perception of the amps is more than Bob was in them. It seems like non certified techs have been fiddling in them. Isolators were missing, or only added to one amp, and I admit it was a good add. Wires aren't soldered. The wiring under the signal tubes is a mess. There are caps floating on unsecured wires. I have never seen an amp where the caps were not attached to the structure in some way. Maybe that was factory but I doubt it. My local guitar amp guy who changed the cap was aghast at the mess of wires and felt the need to lash them in some ways. He said they were vibrating like guitar strings in there. Very unprofessionally looking to him. And hes just a giutar guy. He said doing as such reduced noise he was hearing in his headphones. So yes, i guess I have a bit of a axe to grind.
 

Kingrex

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FWIW failing capacitors do not cause whistling sounds. That's the result of microphonic tubes. If the filter capacitors in the power supply are failing, you might hear a hum and it certainly won't sound right.

BTW the Casablanca should be pretty reliable. I didn't see anything in there that would have suggested a reliability issue. So I think you'll find that they hold together just fine.

My wife left for a couple hours. I was able to play some reference tracks at more of a decent listening level. Not only are these amps more quiet. They have a tighter snappier, full bass. Clarity is improved. Subtle inflections in my known music are more identifiable. These amps are definitely stepped up in performance from stock. They are also blending excellent with my speakers. Driver integration is spot on. I don't hear the transition of horn to open baffle woofers. Darn good work. I'm exceedingly happy with these amps now. I always liked them. The noise just ruined it. They are now better than ever. . Thanks Ralph.
 
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fish fingers

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Never had any amp trouble until i bought an 8 yr old naim power amp recently. Apart that huge 'thump' on turning on, which apparently is 'normal', the thing kept breaking down. No more naim for me.
 

BruceD

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Never had any amp trouble until i bought an 8 yr old naim power amp recently. Apart that huge 'thump' on turning on, which apparently is 'normal', the thing kept breaking down. No more naim for me.
Not to mention the notorious "Torodial Hum" from the Naim Supplies:mad:
I was told that was "how it is" as well

--- and they've just rocketed the RRP's

Pity

BruceD
 
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Kingrex

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My first "audiophile" amp was a Rega Osirus. Boy did it have toroid hum. Could hear it in the next room. A Isotek Syncro shut the noise down and took a fatigue edge off the top. I would maybe still have the unit but the volume dropped off in the left channel way before the right channel when you turned it down low. This was with 89db speakers. Not a very efficient speaker. I sent it back to Rega. They said that was normal for their flagship product. They said it was normal for any preamp to have one channel quite a bit louder than the other when playing at low volumes. They refused to make it right.

A Pass labs rep I met at a show told me how they work the volume control on that unit. He validated in my mind what I believed to be true. I don't need to explain, do I???
 

213Cobra

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View attachment 66297

This is the cap. I hope Ralph is wrong. 3 sets of E88cc were whistling. When the cap was replaced, the whistle for the most part stopped. One set let a little squeel out for 5 seconds then stopped. These tubes are dead quiet in my preamp. All were tested.

One ground connection on the input was never soldered. That is why I suspect after market silver wiring was installed that I "feel" I was lead to believe was factory silver path wiring. It was not part of the original amp. I believe if I dig through a thread I can find mention these were the $12k amps. They are not. They are level 5 base product. The serial number told the story. "I believe" the reference to the value is based upon after market alterations.

Look. I did not specifically ask. Its bad on me. If I had asked I would have offered less or walked away. I made the mistake of wanting to believe and did not specifically drill down, ask, and circle back with reference to forum chain conversations. That is a personal fault of mine. I run on faith. If I were to turn these around, I would have said they are modified base level amps with after market alterations. (I was told they were modified) They have ground issues and are hyper sensitive to tube selection. $2500. I paid $4500. I think that is too much for 19 year old amps that cost $7500 new. I have seen other Black Shadow 2, around 5 years old or so for $5,000.

Per my glimmer of hope, I hear what they are capable of. The base product is a solid foundation. The rub for me is bringing it up to snuff will be a total in of around $8,000. A brand new BS2 level 5 base product is $7,500.

Lastly, whatever was done to the amps left them with a nasty ground fault. This amp is not suppose to require a cheater to calm an enormous ground issue. The seller did send me a set of Ebtech HumX. That was solid of him. In my opinion it should not be necessary. The circuit should work right. Not be cobbled together and ground lift required. This was a big driver for my sending them in to have the circuit brought back to spec. Sure sure sure, all sorts of tube guys use cheaters. In my system I know I don't have ground loops. These amps actually roared when a shorting plug was in the input and the amp only had a power cord and speaker cable connected. When you turned both on they were loud as heck out the speakers. Darnedest thing. Lifting the ground killed much of it. Weird.....
Here are the facts, as I was the seller. Today, Audion Black Shadow base Level 5 cost $13,499 in the US. Base level 5 has silver wire in the audio path and copper wound transformers. Level 6 gets you silver secondaries in the OPTs. Further levels up get you more silver until at the top of the heap you can get all-silver OPT and PT. At the time I bought these amps, Black Shadow was only available as Level 5. The other levels were reserved for the Golden Dream 300B PSET monoblocks.

The amps were bought new by me direct from Audion UK, when their US price was $11,995/pair. Audion was between importers at the time. No one other than Bob Hovland had been inside those amps from the time I bought them in 2005 through selling to Kingrex (at his request) in 2020. Prior to then, only Audion UK had access to them. In that time, the power supply was upgraded, with the high voltage supply recapped with better-sounding Nichicon electrolytics. Hovland wrung -10db of noise out of the amps by rerouting some wiring, improving ground and building custom shields for the power transformers. These mods found their way into newer versions of Audion's amps, and even today, since Audion builds to order, they offer the Nichicon caps option. Additionally, the just-adequate rectifiers for the 845 filament supply were upgraded so they did not have to be replaced every 2 or 3 years. Aside from the rectifier failure that prompted that upgrade, I had no non-elective maintenance issues with those amps in the 15 years I owned them. Before they left Los Angeles, the amps were working perfectly, exhibiting none of the problems cited here by the buyer.

What I do have is the full record of email and text messages communications detailing the buyer's immediate plunge into the innards of the amps, and his frequent expressions of sonic satisfaction once I coached him through eliminating hum in the context of his system. I never represented those amps as anything other than what was delivered: 1st generation Black Shadows, Level 5, modified by Bob Hovland for specific objectives (met and which Audion itself later adopted) making them roughly equivalent to BS Mk II but not the Mk II Mk II. The biggest difference being that the amps I bought were from the era when Audion sourced their transformers from S&B in the UK, and since then they are winding their own at their facility in France, which I also pointed out to the buyer. I do believe Audion has improved their mechanical and electrical build quality over the past 6 or 8 years specifically. I supplied 845A, 845B, 845C and Psvane 845-T tubes so the buyer could find a preferred voicing, and delivered NOS premium input and driver tubes that worked perfectly and quietly when the amps left L.A. BTW, the Audion stock 845 is the Chinese 845A.

I'll also add that Gary at True Audiophile heard those same Black Shadows in my house several times before he moved from Santa Monica to Oregon, and each time remarked how they sounded better than any Black Shadows he had heard before then.

I can't comment on the allegation that an input ground connection was never soldered. If so, it escaped my visual inspection and Hovland's but also if so, it never behaved like an unsoldered connection. That is, no related noise issue ever materialized. As for the blown cap, having shipped a pair of Audion Golden Dreams that apparently had some hard knocks courtesy of FedEx Ground, where a couple of cap leads were severed or cracked (with no outward sign of damage to cartons nor chassis) it is possible that something similar occurred on the ride north to Seattle. Otherwise, outside of Bob's power supply upgrades and noise reduction, everything in those amps is as supplied by Audion. No other techs had been in them during their residence with me, and that includes me. I never ventured into those amps with a soldering iron. Bob's work is beyond reproach. During all of their time with me, they were also fed a steady, actively-regulated diet of 119.9 - 120vAC.

The net is that the normally vulnerable parts of an aging amp were relatively new. They were used in a home with two high end tube systems so hadn't even carried anywhere close to the full listening load. The amps left Los Angeles quieter than the spec on new Black Shadow and all other tests yielded robust results. 845 tubes supplied were either new or low hours tested as-new. Input and driver tubes were an assortment of NOS or low-hours tested-as-new Euro and Russian, chosen to give the buyer some choices and latitude in voicing. I do not think Audion amps are hypersensitive to tube selection but they are highly resolving so differences in tube sonics are obvious. I never found them sensitive to tube differences in dysfunctional ways, however.

Always happy to give the buyer any history, context or guidance. The baseline facts are as I outline here, and I cannot account for deltas post-shipping. I have been in used audio exchanges of various types now going back 50 years, with over 20 years via online venues.

Phil
 
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Atmasphere

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FWIW, when a cap fails in this manner, its usually due to internal problems in the capacitor itself. Some commonly used parts like this one are made in China, some work great and others in the same product line develop leakage. IME this is more common with the higher voltage caps like the one in the photo. If this were the result of shipping damage, replacement of the part would have resulted in the exact same failure (as it would be due to over-voltage), unless the shipping damage were rectified. I'm trying to think what sort of shipping damage could do that and am coming up empty- the only thing I can think of that can cause an over-voltage situation is shorted turns on the primary winding of the power transformer. Since that part did not seem to fail in that manner, logic suggests that neither did the cap- that it failed entirely on its own.
 
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andromedaaudio

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My tube amps are doing fine .
Both are from 2007 .
I recently had a cap blown in my studer B 62 VU tape machine .
At least i i think it was a cap , a first for me .
Some blue smoke and i quickly stopped it .
I couldnt find anything strange on the cicuit boards .
Mechanically it runs fine , just soundwise it isnt okay .
Im going for a work project to germany again soon , so i will drop it of at the technician .
But hey its a machine from early 70 s cant complain much.
It was recently checked and only ran for 10 hours , shit happens
 
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Kingrex

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The amps were 19 years old. Caps leak and fail over time. My assumption is as such. I liked what I heard as the Audion Black Shadow is a great sounding amp. I sent the amps for repair. It was roughly $700 in shipping to and from to get the work done. The cost to make them function was about $360. So an additional $1,000 to make them right. I then opted to do a bunch of modifications that bring them closer to what Audion sends from the factory now, and also to surpass what they ship from the factory. They are completely recapped. The signal caps with much better. I also had the alps pot replaced with the stepped ladder attenuator. I also had both the 9 pin sockets replaced with a very modern dense and heavy socket. Same for the 845 socket. I also had the transformer put on isolation pads. The front end rack that supports the wiring and signal/ driver tube may also be on an isolated platform. Not sure if they could figure that out or not. The amps are still out for repair. It took some time to gather parts.

I have been guaranteed the ground shorts have been fixed. That was the main reason I sent them out. I don't like using cheaters. Even though the cheater I was sent is interesting in design and may be somewhat safe, I would rather the amp be wired correct. It is now. I was also not happy 4 sets of input tubes were whistling. Replacing the blown cap seemed to have calmed most of that down. But it was still very microphonic. Quite noisy. Pretty sounding, but noisy. They should be much more quiet now. I hope. The modifications I asked for are all focused on reducing internally generated noise such as tubes picking up transformer vibrations.

In the meantime, Atmasphere repaired my Casablanca amps. They are so much more quiet now. If the room is very quiet you can slightly hear the transformer humming. It is such a blessing to have a quiet room and quiet gear. I did not realize how annoying noise is till its gone. Well, yes I did, I sent those amps to be repaired too. I have not been without good music, but I am pretty excited to get the Black Shadow back.

FWIW, I am not sure what the shielding is suppose to be that was added to the Black Shadow. There is a piece of hand cut tin held in place with 2 blobs of silicone that wrap the back half of the input toroid transformer. Who knows. Maybe that is all it takes to keep magnetic flux from interfering with surrounding wiring.

I see new level 5 Black Shadow amps are $7500. If I had it to do again, I would rather have new amps and add the mods I had to those. I would be out the same amount of money and have a much newer amp with higher resale. Not that I intend to resell them, but times and gear do change. A lot easier to sell a 5 year old amp than a 24 year old amp.

Not sure where the silver wiring came from in them. I don't think it was factory. I would have to check my email but level 5 is level 5. From what I saw there appeared to be 3 pieces of silver wire in the amp. From the pot to the signal tube. From the signal to the driver. That was the obvious wire as it was silver and only had varnish on it. No casing. I was offered the option of adding silver wiring during this repair/upgrade but I opted to keep it copper. I have heard good silver and bad silver. I don't know I am looking to add any brightness to my system. Its pretty balanced as is tonally and I like a more rich and full sound rather than analytical and top forward.

I have another thread going on these amps. When I get them back I will update that thread.

And for what its worth, its too bad the deal with Phil got sour. It sucks to loose relation with someone who has good knowledge of gear and connections to a host of supposedly decent one off Chinese amps that are reasonably priced. It would have been fun to listen to a few of those.
 

Kingrex

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My amps are getting close to done. It took a lot to get them squared away as I wanted. They found another blown cap in one of the amps. The tech said it was causing a lot of noise. Not sure which it was. I believe all the caps have been replaced. I don't know anything is original in there any more. Only some of the wire and Iron and the frame. I think they have one amp complete so the other should move along faster. Kind of sucks I am out of town for a while. I will have to delay delivery so I am home to receive them. My wife would leave them on the porch if she know what they were. She wants Boulder. If it aint Boulder, don't bother her.
 

Mikem53

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I went from BAT VK75SE tube mono amps to Class D amps some years go, that’s how frustrated I was with Tube power amps.. I still use a tube pre, and my several iterations of Class D amps didn’t work out.. Now I have a Pass XA25 and I’m quite pleased with it ! Actually I’m overjoyed at how good it is.. detailed yet extremely musical.. Class A sounds most natural to me.. low power using high power output devices attached directly to the speakers.. The XA25 is very different that his other Class A amps.. I almost went for the First Watt J2.. some Interesting products over at First Watt.. but for now, Im really happy with the XA25 and it keeps getting better with time..

I had my problems with tubes and tube amps. Very frustrating.

I finally found a ss amp to compliment my high sensitivity horns (107db) which allowed me to happily say goodby to tube amps. As you have fairly sensitive speakers (97db?), you might want to consider the Bakoon 13r at 25 watts/channel. It does not "sound solid state." It's a current based circuit, 0 feedback design. The build quality looks to be excellent.

http://www.bakoon.com/product/amp-13r/

My second choice would be one the low powered Pass amps.

Another very interesting concept I had not heard of before is powering high efficiency speakers from your DAC. @ray-dude has written about this on Audiophile Style in his review of the Extreme Server. He is connecting RCA from his Chord Dave DAC to his speakers.

So, there's one elegant way to solve your amp problems-- no amp! This would be a good thread topic on its own.
 

Mikem53

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I've had tube amps from numerous companies with issues. Most of the big ones.

Consider yourself lucky.

Same here.. Cary audio, Bel Canto (SET40) and BAT. Cary was the worst, always something.. Love the tube sound.. finally gave up and went SS on power amps.. but still use tubes In pre
 

Kingrex

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Same here.. Cary audio, Bel Canto (SET40) and BAT. Cary was the worst, always something.. Love the tube sound.. finally gave up and went SS on power amps.. but still use tubes In pre

I had a messed up Rega Osiris. It was SS. It was an integrated. The volume dropped to 0 on one side well before the other side. I fought Rega for a year over it. They said it was normal on high end gear, get lost. To compensate I had to buy a dac with a volume so I could turn it down instead of the Rega. I met a Pass Lab employee and told him about my issue. He just laughed. Not at me, at what some companies pass off as flagship equipment.

I have another friend with nice gear. He had quite a bit of buzz from his SS amps. When they were serviced for updates all the buzz went away.

I'm just saying, anything can have issues. The more experience I have with this stuff, the more I realize how delicate amplification of a tiny signal is. Some companies do it right. Others, well.......
 

Mikem53

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I had a messed up Rega Osiris. It was SS. It was an integrated. The volume dropped to 0 on one side well before the other side. I fought Rega for a year over it. They said it was normal on high end gear, get lost. To compensate I had to buy a dac with a volume so I could turn it down instead of the Rega. I met a Pass Lab employee and told him about my issue. He just laughed. Not at me, at what some companies pass off as flagship equipment.

I have another friend with nice gear. He had quite a bit of buzz from his SS amps. When they were serviced for updates all the buzz went away.

I'm just saying, anything can have issues. The more experience I have with this stuff, the more I realize how delicate amplification of a tiny signal is. Some companies do it right. Others, well.......

true.. but tubes usually bring extra heat, higher voltages and lots of iron.. which makes it a harsher environment for Electronics and more mass to ship .. which is why I sold my BAT 6C33 tube amps each weighing in at 95+ lbs. I had several Cary amps as they were a Car ride away when I had problems.. That and Dennis Had and I would attend the Charlotte Hamfest.. He would say, ”buy some of those tubes, I have something killer coming out based on them”.. Great guy, some good creations Too.. but I had issues with most of their products.. My fav was the 2A3 push/pull amp he did about 20:years back.. I should have kept those monos, six pacs not so good, IME.. He did use some good Trannys years back.. but that too ended..
I had some other SS amps, mostly for HT and only the Krell 5 channel KAV250 failed with a capacitor rain storm which also took out much of the amp.. first and last krell I ever owned.. Oh.. I also have a Cary SACD 306 player that they stopped supporting .. It took 3 of them before I had one that didn’t skip.. yet it did sound very good.. still.. it’s a hobby and anything worth doing, is worth overdoing... even if it’s painful
 

Mikem53

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Inexpensive volume controls can do that. I saw that a lot back when I worked in the service department at Allied Radio Shack.

Amen !! so many high dollar pre amps costing thousands with a $15 pot.. I had a Thor Audio preamp, it was round and parabolic.. 4 tubes.. very pretty.. pricey and when peeking in the bonnet.. nothing to write home about.. only descent sounding for thousands.. the sub 1K Freya+ blows it away.. I was a audio Dealer back in the day, on the side.. thats another story..
I spent lots of money to learn you don’t have to in many cases...
 
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