Dedicated audio room build thread aka The Big Dig

HughP3 · Aug 12, 2021

RichDavis said:
Great room. I stumbled across Acoustic Fields about 8 years ago. I checked out the demo room they had back then and was simply amazed at how his rooms sound. I can only imagine that your room is simply amongst the best in the world.. What did you end up doing with the flooring? Also, is there any additional things like adding diffusion on the ceiling?

How about adding a motor to the doors?

Hi Rich thanks for commenting.

Floor is concrete with typical carpet and pad. Ceiling has thousands of pounds of carbon absorption btwn the lvl beams. Dennis spent a lot if time calculating the position and amount of acoustic foam needed on the ceiling too. It worked. We did speak about diffusion on the ceiling but decided the controlled absorption was a good path. Lol yeah on the doors maybe one day i will need some actuators but they are not too hard to move right now.

HughP3 · Aug 12, 2021

RichDavis said:
I would suggest checking out MIT Cables and obtain some loaners of their various cables. I've been a long time fan of MIT and have only seen improvements in their deigns over the years.. They have a loaner program so you can get a pair of cables for 30 days, and then send them back and get another pair, etc. It's a great program they have. In the room Hugh has, you should be able to hear subtle differences in cables loud and clear.

I went with Shunyata sigma V2 for entire loom upgraded from Delta.

HughP3 · Aug 12, 2021

ACHiPo said:
Wow Hugh, I'm late to the party, but that is quite the project. I'm glad your experience with Dennis was a positive one, and I now understand better why he and I were on totally different planets when it came to what "acceptable room treatment" means!

I certainly would be very interested to hear a room like that. I can only imagine it would be similar (and probably better) than a purpose-built performing arts space.

Thank you, yes the further we got into it i was like what have I gotten myself into lol. But it all worked out

ACHiPo · Aug 12, 2021

HughP3 said:
Thank you, yes the further we got into it i was like what have I gotten myself into lol. But it all worked out

I'm very happy for you. I really like Dennis's YouTube videos. I wasn't so crazy about his "bedside manner" in my call with him, but I do have confidence he could build a no-compromise room. That's just not where I am, however. I'm on a different path. Enjoying the view out of my non-acoustically ideal office/living room.

RichDavis · Aug 15, 2021

ACHiPo said:
Wow Hugh, I'm late to the party, but that is quite the project. I'm glad your experience with Dennis was a positive one, and I now understand better why he and I were on totally different planets when it came to what "acceptable room treatment" means!

I certainly would be very interested to hear a room like that. I can only imagine it would be similar (and probably better) than a purpose-built performing arts space.

How was your idea of "acceptable room treatment" vs what Dennis was suggesting? I've had many discussions with Dennis over the years and I was fortunate enough to listen to one of his rooms. My understanding of room treatment has changed throughout the years as I was able to either use different types of room treatment and then understand and hear what Dennis has conjured up…. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but after hearing a room that Dennis put his treatment in completely changed my perception and understanding of room treatment.

From my discussions, listening to his room and watching his videos, I came to the conclusion that there is a lot of misinformation, myths that's been bantered about with regards to room treatment over the years, and that most people simply haven't had enough or any experience with activated carbon in diaphragmatic absorption for low frequencies and an absorption material that has the same absorption coefficient curve that he achieved with their foam.

My suggestion is that if you have a chance to hear one of his rooms, by all means do so. It might change your mind about room treatment.

For me, there's only been a few things in the world of audio that has blown my mind. Dennis' room treatment and ability to combine his products into an audio is definitely at the top of the list. It's just something one has to experience. I think he and his products are the audio industries best kept secret.

Always keep an open mind is all I can say.. I wish I could afford to have a room like Hugh's. He definitely a VERY lucky individual..

RichDavis · Aug 15, 2021

HughP3 said:
Thank you, yes the further we got into it i was like what have I gotten myself into lol. But it all worked out

Did Dennis suggest moving the equipment rack to the back end of the room?

ACHiPo · Aug 15, 2021

RichDavis said:
How was your idea of "acceptable room treatment" vs what Dennis was suggesting? I've had many discussions with Dennis over the years and I was fortunate enough to listen to one of his rooms. My understanding of room treatment has changed throughout the years as I was able to either use different types of room treatment and then understand and hear what Dennis has conjured up…. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but after hearing a room that Dennis put his treatment in completely changed my perception and understanding of room treatment.

From my discussions, listening to his room and watching his videos, I came to the conclusion that there is a lot of misinformation, myths that's been bantered about with regards to room treatment over the years, and that most people simply haven't had enough or any experience with activated carbon in diaphragmatic absorption for low frequencies and an absorption material that has the same absorption coefficient curve that he achieved with their foam.

My suggestion is that if you have a chance to hear one of his rooms, by all means do so. It might change your mind about room treatment.

For me, there's only been a few things in the world of audio that has blown my mind. Dennis' room treatment and ability to combine his products into an audio is definitely at the top of the list. It's just something one has to experience. I think he and his products are the audio industries best kept secret.

Always keep an open mind is all I can say.. I wish I could afford to have a room like Hugh's. He definitely a VERY lucky individual..

Rich,
Dennis started the conversation (and peppered the 30 min call) with how stupid everyone else is. He then told me my room sucked and could never be any good (without understanding my definition of good). He then told me I needed to line my front wall with his carbon bass absorbers (which I'm sure would help the acoustics, but which is not acceptable aesthetically). He didn't notice (or didn't care) that the front wall has bookcases and a bay window (again, not great for acoustics but quite nice aesthetically).

I'm sure Dennis could build a great sounding room from the ground up. That was not why I wanted to talk to him--I wanted to figure out a way to get a 10 dB problem below 200 Hz to about a 5 dB problem that I could tune effectively using multiple subs. I've got limited wall space which is why I wanted his recommendations.

HughP3 · Aug 15, 2021

RichDavis said:
Did Dennis suggest moving the equipment rack to the back end of the room?

Yes and so did joe cali. Back side, not btwn speakers

Philip O Hanlon · Nov 4, 2021

We have a pair of Ex demo Trident II less than 2-year-old in excellent condition available from California (ex distributor fleet, light use). Reach us for details and pricing and photos furnished upon request.

Addicted to hifi · Nov 4, 2021

Philip O Hanlon said:
View attachment 84020

We have a pair of Ex demo Trident II less than 2-year-old in excellent condition available from California (ex distributor fleet, light use). Reach us for details and pricing and photos furnished upon request.

Beautiful speakers.

HughP3 · Dec 12, 2021

Finally some measurements! These graphs and write up is from Mike Burns owner of Wolfsong Audio consultants.

The first image is from the final placement of the speakers and the seating. It is the Energy Storage Plot. Reference volume was 70 db. Short Sine sweep tone. The results show the room holds on to very little energy from 500 to 2K cycles and then has a fairly regular pattern from 2K to 15K. This means the room is not over damped and has a regular dissipation pattern. The fact that the higher frequency energy is stored up to and a bit beyond 14+ cycles shows that the room is not just a damped chamber but that ( IMHO ) the Diffusor panels are doing what they are supposed to in conjunction with the side wall absorbers.

2nd Image is the waterfall plot. Reference volume again was 70 db. Short sine sweep tone. I may have run the test with very short tracing as the graph runs to just 5 milliseconds. But the results to 5 Ms are impressive. With nearly zero measured “ring’ below 2K the bass and lower midrange is absorbed and dissipated almost totally. The 2K to 10 readings show rapid and even dissipation. We may want to do a 100 to 200 Ms reading later to see how long that decay does last.

My assessment of the measurements is that the room has very well controlled reflection and energy dissipation in the sub bass, bass, mi bass and lower midrange regions. I the mid to upper mid and treble the room exhibits even and rapid dissipation of energy without being over damped.

To my ears the room and system play with even response and the room effectively “disappears” into the soundfield. No mean feat with 7 foot tall speakers that play down to 16Hz! I also noted a very “natural” feel to the room upon entering. In walking around and speaking with you at no point did I feel like the room was taking away the natural decay of our voices.

Carlos269 · Dec 12, 2021

HughP3 said:
Finally some measurements! These graphs and write up is from Mike Burns owner of Wolfsong Audio consultants.

The first image is from the final placement of the speakers and the seating. It is the Energy Storage Plot. Reference volume was 70 db. Short Sine sweep tone. The results show the room holds on to very little energy from 500 to 2K cycles and then has a fairly regular pattern from 2K to 15K. This means the room is not over damped and has a regular dissipation pattern. The fact that the higher frequency energy is stored up to and a bit beyond 14+ cycles shows that the room is not just a damped chamber but that ( IMHO ) the Diffusor panels are doing what they are supposed to in conjunction with the side wall absorbers.

2nd Image is the waterfall plot. Reference volume again was 70 db. Short sine sweep tone. I may have run the test with very short tracing as the graph runs to just 5 milliseconds. But the results to 5 Ms are impressive. With nearly zero measured “ring’ below 2K the bass and lower midrange is absorbed and dissipated almost totally. The 2K to 10 readings show rapid and even dissipation. We may want to do a 100 to 200 Ms reading later to see how long that decay does last.

My assessment of the measurements is that the room has very well controlled reflection and energy dissipation in the sub bass, bass, mi bass and lower midrange regions. I the mid to upper mid and treble the room exhibits even and rapid dissipation of energy without being over damped.

To my ears the room and system play with even response and the room effectively “disappears” into the soundfield. No mean feat with 7 foot tall speakers that play down to 16Hz! I also noted a very “natural” feel to the room upon entering. In walking around and speaking with you at no point did I feel like the room was taking away the natural decay of our voices.

View attachment 86216 View attachment 86215

I think that Mike Burns was very polite.

alfa100 · Dec 12, 2021

HughP3 said:
Finally some measurements! These graphs and write up is from Mike Burns owner of Wolfsong Audio consultants.

The first image is from the final placement of the speakers and the seating. It is the Energy Storage Plot. Reference volume was 70 db. Short Sine sweep tone. The results show the room holds on to very little energy from 500 to 2K cycles and then has a fairly regular pattern from 2K to 15K. This means the room is not over damped and has a regular dissipation pattern. The fact that the higher frequency energy is stored up to and a bit beyond 14+ cycles shows that the room is not just a damped chamber but that ( IMHO ) the Diffusor panels are doing what they are supposed to in conjunction with the side wall absorbers.

2nd Image is the waterfall plot. Reference volume again was 70 db. Short sine sweep tone. I may have run the test with very short tracing as the graph runs to just 5 milliseconds. But the results to 5 Ms are impressive. With nearly zero measured “ring’ below 2K the bass and lower midrange is absorbed and dissipated almost totally. The 2K to 10 readings show rapid and even dissipation. We may want to do a 100 to 200 Ms reading later to see how long that decay does last.

My assessment of the measurements is that the room has very well controlled reflection and energy dissipation in the sub bass, bass, mi bass and lower midrange regions. I the mid to upper mid and treble the room exhibits even and rapid dissipation of energy without being over damped.

To my ears the room and system play with even response and the room effectively “disappears” into the soundfield. No mean feat with 7 foot tall speakers that play down to 16Hz! I also noted a very “natural” feel to the room upon entering. In walking around and speaking with you at no point did I feel like the room was taking away the natural decay of our voices.

View attachment 86216 View attachment 86215

Very impressive. Please do some measurements below 115 Hz

Carlos269 · Dec 12, 2021

alfa100 said:
Very impressive. Please do some measurements below 115 Hz

And above 15KHz.

HughP3 · Dec 12, 2021

Carlos269 said:
I think that Mike Burns was very polite.

And your opinion is well your opinion.

tpsully99 · Dec 12, 2021

It would be great to see a frequency response curve along with an RT60 graph.
Tom

pjwd · Dec 14, 2021

HughP3 said:
Finally some measurements! These graphs and write up is from Mike Burns owner of Wolfsong Audio consultants.

The first image is from the final placement of the speakers and the seating. It is the Energy Storage Plot. Reference volume was 70 db. Short Sine sweep tone. The results show the room holds on to very little energy from 500 to 2K cycles and then has a fairly regular pattern from 2K to 15K. This means the room is not over damped and has a regular dissipation pattern. The fact that the higher frequency energy is stored up to and a bit beyond 14+ cycles shows that the room is not just a damped chamber but that ( IMHO ) the Diffusor panels are doing what they are supposed to in conjunction with the side wall absorbers.

2nd Image is the waterfall plot. Reference volume again was 70 db. Short sine sweep tone. I may have run the test with very short tracing as the graph runs to just 5 milliseconds. But the results to 5 Ms are impressive. With nearly zero measured “ring’ below 2K the bass and lower midrange is absorbed and dissipated almost totally. The 2K to 10 readings show rapid and even dissipation. We may want to do a 100 to 200 Ms reading later to see how long that decay does last.

My assessment of the measurements is that the room has very well controlled reflection and energy dissipation in the sub bass, bass, mi bass and lower midrange regions. I the mid to upper mid and treble the room exhibits even and rapid dissipation of energy without being over damped.

To my ears the room and system play with even response and the room effectively “disappears” into the soundfield. No mean feat with 7 foot tall speakers that play down to 16Hz! I also noted a very “natural” feel to the room upon entering. In walking around and speaking with you at no point did I feel like the room was taking away the natural decay of our voices.

View attachment 86216 View attachment 86215

Bravo for putting these out there Hugh !
That reverb time below 2khz is amazingly short and even ... presume that is the wall and ceiling system .. I expect it continues down lower given the nature of the system.
It is surprising to me that it works up that high and cuts off that sharp.
Conversely the upper level has quite a long reverb time ( not a bad thing) ... do you notice that step in listening

Cheers
Phil

HughP3 · Dec 14, 2021

pjwd said:
Bravo for putting these out there Hugh !
That reverb time below 2khz is amazingly short and even ... presume that is the wall and ceiling system .. I expect it continues down lower given the nature of the system.
It is surprising to me that it works up that high and cuts off that sharp.
Conversely the upper level has quite a long reverb time ( not a bad thing) ... do you notice that step in listening

Cheers
Phil

honestly Phil, the charts dont paint a picture for me except i guess the bass response which i feel is tight and articulate and that appears graphed as such. on the higher ranges: Michel Petrucciani on piano simple sounds crisp and very well defined. Al Di Meola on acoustic guitar is also crisp and exciting. studio recordings of female vocals have a decay or reverb that sounds dimensional as if i am in the space. i have no idea how these broad range diffusers should measure but i dont get the sense that confusion or muddy transients are occurring. for me to make chart comparisons make sense, i need to hear a room with comparable kit that sounds as good or better than mine then compare the graphs to try and figure out why. there are just so many variables tho.

pjwd · Dec 14, 2021

HughP3 said:
honestly Phil, the charts dont paint a picture for me except i guess the bass response which i feel is tight and articulate and that appears graphed as such. on the higher ranges: Michel Petrucciani on piano simple sounds crisp and very well defined. Al Di Meola on acoustic guitar is also crisp and exciting. studio recordings of female vocals have a decay or reverb that sounds dimensional as if i am in the space. i have no idea how these broad range diffusers should measure but i dont get the sense that confusion or muddy transients are occurring. for me to make chart comparisons make sense, i need to hear a room with comparable kit that sounds as good or better than mine then compare the graphs to try and figure out why. there are just so many variables tho.

I get that

if that bottom end reverb time extends down to low levels it would have superb bass clarity as you note - even to the point of being too "dry" for some ....but the room acoustics of the recording would be on full display ! I always wondered what is essentially a huge area of bass absorbers would do.

It is a heroic project !

I also had no idea if that "step" at 2000Hz would be audible ... clearly not

Thanks for responding

Phil

QuadDiffuser · Dec 15, 2021

As another WBF member who has invested heavily in treating the listening room with QRDs and Diaphragmic bass absorbers, albeit at a much smaller scale than Hugh

, I'm fascinated by the measurements, particularly with the periodicity and uniformity of the frequencies above 3.5kHz (upper bandwidth limit of the QRDs), and how/why they're so prominently louder than the lower frequencies under 2kHz. Hugh, I'm very interested in understanding the actual setup of the testing rig. Was the frequency generator an actual transducer (separate from the L/R stereo speakers) pointed towards the QRD wall, to "measure" the front wall's behavior? Or, was it a FFT calculation, based on the mic measurements taken from the two main stereo L/R speakers at the listening position?

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