State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

ddk · May 3, 2022

Ron Resnick said:
I think this is a fair question. Do outdoorsy people into camping; sailors into boats; speedsters into sports cars and automobile racing; electronics people into amateur radio; firearms enthusiasts into target shooting; collectors into collecting art, stamps, bottles, daguerreotypes, coins, antique cameras; etc.; experience the contentiousness we audiophiles experience? In my personal experience -- with respect to my other hobbies -- my answer is "no."

But it might also be a misleading question.

In my personal experiences in this hobby the in-person, in-real-life experiences are monumentally more friendly and less contentious than some of the on-line experiences.

So maybe the issue is not audio hobbyists versus non-audio hobbyists; maybe the issue is on-line keyboard warrior-ism versus in-real-life interactions.

I have other serious hobbies and I can say from direct experience the related fora were equally if not more contentious, one can say it’s human nature and in this divided climate I doubt that in person we’d be much different specially in a group gathering.

This is really a comment rather than a question and pretty contentious one too!

Lee said:
What is it about audio that attracts such a joyless group of people living in the past to audio fora?

Does kumbaya really matter when overall people are communicating and exchanging information freely?

david

tima · May 3, 2022

Ron Resnick said:
So maybe the issue is not audio hobbyists versus non-audio hobbyists; maybe the issue is on-line keyboard warrior-ism versus in-real-life interactions.

or ... it's a Salon at Versailles

Gregm · May 3, 2022

the sound of Tao said:
Add to that the passionate nature of our hobby and the tendency to draw also people who can be highly analytically charged and even compulsive and you’ve got a recipe for some levels of volatility. Certainly though forums then seem to drive people to latch more fiercely onto their ideas.

Agreed, music speaks to our emotional world and where emotions abound, rationality goes down the drain!

I think the flames and slurs, etc, simply reveal the how much people are intolerant of others, and the actual subject of conversation is just the medium -- be it audio, or any other

Back to audio.
The thing is that home reproduction of music does not have a generally acknowledged, tangible and repeatable (and objective) reference against which what we hear can be compared and evaluated.

There's nothing with this, it just allows each one of us to nurture a fully opersonal approach to music reproduction, a bit like ice-cream flavours. Case in point: discussing what "type of sound" we like, we split into camps depending on the flavour ; some like to reproduce what's on the medium, others search the "you are there" effect, others still wish to simulate a live event in their living room -- in other words, de gustibus non est... etc, all over again. And each one believes that their approach is the "correct" one.

And there's nothing wrong with that either, we all agree that the objective of our systems is to make us happy, joyful, ehtusiastic, ad lib... listening to our music.

It's when we are convinced of our superiority of our opinion vs the expressed opinion of another poster that things start to deteriorate.
Having said that, WBF seems like an oasis compared to other audio sites!

awsmone · May 3, 2022

Although I haven’t been very active here during Covid, for work reasons, there are real positives in these forums , and you tube channels with ‘idea sharing’ from people across the globe

stuck in my little corner of the world, I would never got advice from the likes of Ked, DDK, PeterA, Tima, and Tango.
all wonderful people full of experience and happy to share, this is a wonderful thing I never had 20 years ago when I started on my hifi journey

the you tube videos I consider great entertainment and experience broadening , maybe because I don’t get to go to shows, I don’t see the repeat tedium

I feel I am on a bit of an audiophile Renaissance personally since discovering the ‘natural sound’, and find these forums very much to my taste, and both forums, internet, you tube and Qobuz are assisting me in my quest

Diapason · May 3, 2022

I have mentioned before that IMO this is whole "thing" is really more than one hobby. We're actually not here to discuss listening to music, as much as we'd like to tell ourselves that this is the sole, noble aim of it all. We're also (and to be fair, mainly) here to discuss reproduction of music, and the equipment required to do it well, and that's a different hobby. The way I see it, this part of the hobby is fundamentally built out of dissatisfaction: I am not 100% happy with the sound quality of the music I'm listening to, so what else is available? That's basically how we all got into this. Dissatisfaction is the constant background hum of this hobby, even more so than joy I think. The "listening to music" hobby brings the joy, there's plenty there, that's the whole point, but the "discussing reproduction of music", not so much. You know, apart from the youtube videos.

All that said, as I press on into middle age, I find more and more people who seem somewhat offended when my life choices are different to their own. In any area, from the most basic questions of where to live and to what to do with your spare time to politics and religion and every other thing, so many people want to have their decisions justified by others. If you've come to a different conclusion on how you want to live, many people basically see that as an attack on their choices. I don't really get this, I thought the main beauty of getting older was no longer giving a rats about what anyone thinks, but apparently that's not how it works for everyone. We probably shouldn't be surprised that hifi forums are contentious places given the MASSIVE scope for differing opinions. Every time you say "I think item X is good", somebody else interprets that as "your item Y is bad". It's ridiculous, but it plays out everywhere. I really get tired of the fights online, but I don't think they'll ever be eradicated.

On that note, I think you're all deluded, cables don't make a difference, horns are s**te, and digital knocks analogue into a cocked hat...

PeterA · May 3, 2022

For a while now I have considered WBF to be the best audio site on the Internet. The reason for this is very simple: it is the quality and the breadth of the content.

We have spirited discussions about references and the language used to describe what we hear. We have participation of members of the industry and extremely experienced hobbyists. We have the extreme examples of the best vintage gear with insights on set up from people like David Karmeli to product launches, news and impressions of the latest and greatest digital from people who buy the most expensive current gear.

Perhaps best of all, we have writers of extreme talent like Tima and the sound of Tao who express their opinions clearly and with reason, plus crack up humor from Woofer and Tweet and Spirit of music. We discuss the ideas of members around the world, and we can watch system videos from Bonzo to increase exposure to gear we would otherwise never see or hear and from Tang to hear what a great system from far away sounds like. We have advice on superb recordings from Zerostargeneral.

Steve, Ron, Tom, and Julian have created a special platform for the rest of us to create and share content. Despite some disagreements, I have learned a lot from the plethora of opinions here, and I have met some great people in the process. WBF contributes to the current state of the industry, and for that I am grateful.

andromedaaudio · May 3, 2022

Lee said:
What is it about audio that attracts such a joyless group of people living in the past to audio fora?

Come on Lee , Roy gregory s opening declaration wasn t exactly overflowing with positivity either .
It has nothing to do with living in the past , a bit of healthy skepticism is good .
Its just that not very audio product that came out this year is actually a better product then one from 10 - 20 years ago .
Regarding your Porsche remark , at least they up their product measurably / visibly , either more horsepower a slightly different line or some more Carbon.
With audio its a bit more complicated , you cant put it on a dyno .
I always ask myself is it actually better or just different ( or worse ), im perfectly happy with the gear i have.
For example I tested / bought a meitner dac , wadia ,Weiss and guess what the 20 year old ML 360 S sounds better

rbbert · May 3, 2022

Diapason said:
... All that said, as I press on into middle age, I find more and more people who seem somewhat offended when my life choices are different to their own. In any area, from the most basic questions of where to live and to what to do with your spare time to politics and religion and every other thing, so many people want to have their decisions justified by others. If you've come to a different conclusion on how you want to live, many people basically see that as an attack on their choices. I don't really get this...

Elliot G. · May 3, 2022

Diapason said:
I have mentioned before that IMO this is whole "thing" is really more than one hobby. We're actually not here to discuss listening to music, as much as we'd like to tell ourselves that this is the sole, noble aim of it all. We're also (and to be fair, mainly) here to discuss reproduction of music, and the equipment required to do it well, and that's a different hobby. The way I see it, this part of the hobby is fundamentally built out of dissatisfaction: I am not 100% happy with the sound quality of the music I'm listening to, so what else is available? That's basically how we all got into this. Dissatisfaction is the constant background hum of this hobby, even more so than joy I think. The "listening to music" hobby brings the joy, there's plenty there, that's the whole point, but the "discussing reproduction of music", not so much. You know, apart from the youtube videos.

All that said, as I press on into middle age, I find more and more people who seem somewhat offended when my life choices are different to their own. In any area, from the most basic questions of where to live and to what to do with your spare time to politics and religion and every other thing, so many people want to have their decisions justified by others. If you've come to a different conclusion on how you want to live, many people basically see that as an attack on their choices. I don't really get this, I thought the main beauty of getting older was no longer giving a rats about what anyone thinks, but apparently that's not how it works for everyone. We probably shouldn't be surprised that hifi forums are contentious places given the MASSIVE scope for differing opinions. Every time you say "I think item X is good", somebody else interprets that as "your item Y is bad". It's ridiculous, but it plays out everywhere. I really get tired of the fights online, but I don't think they'll ever be eradicated.

On that note, I think you're all deluded, cables don't make a difference, horns are s**te, and digital knocks analogue into a cocked hat...

I totally agree that the internet has birthed the indignant invisible that hide behind a moniker of anonymity. I don't believe people would actually talk to a live human like they do online. The lose of civics is alarming to me.
Its like Warhole's 15 minutes of fame has come to fruition.
I like WBF and I think for the most part has intelligent and passionate members who want to converse and exchange ideas about music and audio. I do see the rise of a large group of people that are not participants but voyageurs. The ability all over the internet to disparage, insult, defame and abuse is IMO just an act of cowards.
I doubt that any of these people have the courage to say it to a persons face and even if they would have no knowledge or facts to back up their insults.
On the positive side it allows an easy exchange of information and ideas when it works at its best.

Lee · May 3, 2022

ddk said:
Does kumbaya really matter when overall people are communicating and exchanging information freely?

david

I am all in favor of a free exchange of information but the "joyless group" statement I made is true. How can one have joy when you are saying that no new advancements in sound reproduction have occurred? Part of the hobby's joy is the perpetual pursuit of excellent sound. Music reproduction is complex and ever evolving, both in front of the mic and behind it.

To believe that no new tech is happening is simply dead wrong. There are provable advancements in this hobby and much of the vintage audio has been left behind. You like horns? Fine but there are better horn speakers because cabinets have improved. Drivers have improved. Tolerances in manufacture have improved. Likewise electronics and sources have improved.

Look at the Vivaldi Apex. That is huge advance in dynamics and resolution and you can measure it. 12 db better linearity.

So yes, let's have a real discussion with members of all opinions. But stop the ridiculous comments about there being no new technology.

Lee · May 3, 2022

andromedaaudio said:
Come on Lee , Roy gregory s opening declaration wasn t exactly overflowing with positivity either .
It has nothing to do with living in the past , a bit of healthy skepticism is good .
Its just that not very audio product that came out this year is actually a better product then one from 10 - 20 years ago .
Regarding your Porsche remark , at least they up their product measurably / visibly , either more horsepower a slightly different line or some more Carbon.
With audio its a bit more complicated , you cant put it on a dyno .
I always ask myself is it actually better or just different ( or worse ), im perfectly happy with the gear i have.
For example I tested / bought a meitner dac , wadia ,Weiss and guess what the 20 year old ML 360 S sounds better

It's a loose analogy of course, but the theme of audio having some very negative people online is very true.

You can measure some stuff but not others. But anyone with critical listening skills knows that the ability to reproduce sound, both digital and analog sourced is getting better all the time. The ML 360 S is completely destroyed by the MSB Select 2, dCS Vivaldi or Rossini, and the Wadax. This stuff also beats the Wadia line handily. I like the Meitner and Weiss gear but have not heard the latest versions so won't comment.

Lee · May 3, 2022

Diapason said:
All that said, as I press on into middle age, I find more and more people who seem somewhat offended when my life choices are different to their own. In any area, from the most basic questions of where to live and to what to do with your spare time to politics and religion and every other thing, so many people want to have their decisions justified by others. If you've come to a different conclusion on how you want to live, many people basically see that as an attack on their choices. I don't really get this, I thought the main beauty of getting older was no longer giving a rats about what anyone thinks, but apparently that's not how it works for everyone. We probably shouldn't be surprised that hifi forums are contentious places given the MASSIVE scope for differing opinions. Every time you say "I think item X is good", somebody else interprets that as "your item Y is bad". It's ridiculous, but it plays out everywhere. I really get tired of the fights online, but I don't think they'll ever be eradicated.

I think the old adage, "Comparison is the death of joy" applies here. We all need to learn to enjoy what we have and not be envious or depressed if a friend has better gear or, in many cases, perceived better gear. Steve Rochlin is right to say enjoy the music. If it makes you happy then that's all that matters.

It's really a hobby for most of us and in some cases a vocation as well. In my role at TAS and Plus, I would say read as many reviews as possible but just use them to create a short list of items of interest. Then go to a dealer and hear the products and find what fits your preferences. That's all that matters, not some other guy's opinion. After all, you are the one who has to live with the decision.

One big caveat: be careful with second tier brands because that can harm resale value which limits opportunities to upgrade.

Another observation: setup is so important as I have learned in my travels with Jim Smith working on several friends' systems. The vast majority of audiophiles just don't get the basics right and that is the difference of 50% of achievable sound and 100% of achievable sound.

PeterA · May 3, 2022

Lee said:
What is it about audio that attracts such a joyless group of people living in the past to audio fora?

Lee, some of the happiest people I’ve met in the hobby own vintage gear. They listen to music, they like the sound of their systems, they often don’t spend a lot of money, and they enjoy themselves. This is the hobby for them. They don’t complain about being stuck on the merry go round. They don’t think they’re missing out on all of this new technology inevitably leading to better sound. And I do not think they consider themselves to be living in the past.

I had a fairly contemporary system, almost always upgraded when the next model came out, read the magazines, went to dealerships and shows, bought lots of audiophile accessories, and listened to friends’ modern systems. I then started experimenting and questioning conventional wisdom and set up. I decided to increase my exposure and traveled to hear some systems that sounded completely different. It turned out they sounded more like real music to me. So in four months I basically sold my entire old system and bought a new vintage system. It has nothing to do with living in the past. It has everything to do with discovering an audio system that I think sounds more real and brings me closer to the music. It was a
matter of exposure. I learned and then made a decision. It is just a different approach and way to enjoy the hobby.

I find your comment pretty condescending actually. Your publications might be well served by covering a greater variety of pathways to the sound of unamplified instruments in real space.

Lee · May 3, 2022

PeterA said:
Lee, some of the happiest people I’ve met in the hobby own vintage gear. They listen to music, they like the sound of their systems, they often don’t spend a lot of money, and they enjoy themselves. This is the hobby for them. They don’t complain about being stuck on the merry go round. They don’t think they’re missing out on all of this new technology inevitably leading to better sound. And I do not think they consider themselves to be living in the past.

I had a fairly contemporary system, almost always upgraded when the next model came out, read the magazines, went to dealerships and shows, bought lots of audiophile accessories, and listened to friends’ modern systems. I then started experimenting and questioning conventional wisdom and set up. I decided to increase my exposure and traveled to hear some systems that sounded completely different. It turned out they sounded more like real music to me. So in four months I basically sold my entire old system and bought a new vintage system. It has nothing to do with living in the past. It has everything to do with discovering an audio system that I think sounds more real and brings me closer to the music. It was a
matter of exposure. I learned and then made a decision. It is just a different approach and way to enjoy the hobby.

I find your comment pretty condescending actually. Your publications might be well served by covering a greater variety of pathways to the sound of unamplified instruments in real space.

I don't understand the condescending remark. We are very open to all manner of approaches in the hobby. If vintage works for you and others then great. I only take umbrage at the idea that things are not progressing.

Maybe the common ground here is to value everyone in the hobby. Welcome both vintage and modern...and show a bit more respect to those who like a different approach, including those who enjoy having the latest and greatest.

awsmone · May 3, 2022

Lee said:
It's a loose analogy of course, but the theme of audio having some very negative people online is very true.

You can measure some stuff but not others. But anyone with critical listening skills knows that the ability to reproduce sound, both digital and analog sourced is getting better all the time. The ML 360 S is completely destroyed by the MSB Select 2, dCS Vivaldi or Rossini, and the Wadax. This stuff also beats the Wadia line handily. I like the Meitner and Weiss gear but have not heard the latest versions so won't comment.

Maybe this is an example of the Poe effect, but I have to agree with PeterA, you sounding like your lecturing us , sorry Lee, but that’s how it comes across to me anyway,
and pity second tier equipment manufacturers in your adverts, I mean, wadax, dcs, and MSB, are all good gear, but not exactly the cheapest gear around for a newbie, unless a millionaire
and I also agree with PeterA, you can have a very happy system with some, I mean some vintage gear, and be happy not ever listening at shows, which may be the death of all future audio enjoyment

PeterA · May 3, 2022

Lee said:
I don't understand the condescending remark. We are very open to all manner of approaches in the hobby. If vintage works for you and others then great. I only take umbrage at the idea that things are not progressing.

Maybe the common ground here is to value everyone in the hobby. Welcome both vintage and modern...and show a bit more respect to those who like a different approach, including those who enjoy having the latest and greatest.

Lee, it is your "joyless people living in the past" comment. I find that comment to be condescending. You clearly don't. We can move on.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there are no new technologies. Digital is certainly advancing, but some old CD players still hold up, and some of us think that some sound better than some/most/all streaming. Speaker cabinets vibrate less with the new materials. Drivers are stiffer too. Cables are fancier and purer and claim lower noise. Technologies march forward, and there is progress. I think some people are simply questioning whether technology inevitably marching forward means that products inevitably sound better.

As we discussed on the phone, I do not think that is necessarily the case, and I gave you some specific examples. In addition to the turntable examples, I have never heard a modern subwoofer sound as natural and integrated as the vintage 18" JBL subs in ddk's system. I was impressed with Magico's Q series. It was well integrated but did not sound as natural in tone. Tima and I agreed that neither of us has every heard a cartridge sound as convincing, believable, or natural as ddk's Neumann cartridge. Tang is pretty impressed with his too. Of course I have not directly compared that one to all other modern cartridges, but still, that is a data point that makes me question progress in the industry. Every new thick reissue LP that I have directly compared to an original, has sounded worse, as long as the original was in good condition.

I am not knocking every new, nor I am not arguing that everything old is better than everything new, simply that I question your unqualified claim that new technology always leads to better sound. Some special vintage gear is pretty darn good, and in some cases, better than the new stuff I have heard. It is easy to make stuff sound different. The challenge is to make it sound better and closer to the real thing. This is where there is some differences of opinion.

MarkusBarkus · May 3, 2022

...FWIW it didn't read as a lecture to me. He runs a mag and his comments are influenced by that experience. I can sort all that out.

The "second tier" comment was odd, but I don't really know what that means...other than expensive gear holds it's value? Maybe.

PeterA · May 3, 2022

MarkusBarkus said:
...FWIW it didn't read as a lecture to me. He runs a mag and his comments are influenced by that experience. I can sort all that out.

The "second tier" comment was odd, but I don't really know what that means...other than expensive gear holds it's value? Maybe.

We just read the post from @KeithR that lower priced gear holds its value better. I agree with Keith, at least it seems to in most cases. There is a bigger market for that stuff. Members of the industry are simply supporting the new gear and accessories. I get that. It helps the sales and keeps things going and hopefully growing. The industry needs promotion, and some of the new stuff is excellent.

morricab · May 3, 2022

Lee said:
I am all in favor of a free exchange of information but the "joyless group" statement I made is true. How can one have joy when you are saying that no new advancements in sound reproduction have occurred? Part of the hobby's joy is the perpetual pursuit of excellent sound. Music reproduction is complex and ever evolving, both in front of the mic and behind it.

To believe that no new tech is happening is simply dead wrong. There are provable advancements in this hobby and much of the vintage audio has been left behind. You like horns? Fine but there are better horn speakers because cabinets have improved. Drivers have improved. Tolerances in manufacture have improved. Likewise electronics and sources have improved.

Look at the Vivaldi Apex. That is huge advance in dynamics and resolution and you can measure it. 12 db better linearity.

So yes, let's have a real discussion with members of all opinions. But stop the ridiculous comments about there being no new technology.

“Read my lips, no new technology“...that was a quote from G.H.W Bush I think...

morricab · May 3, 2022

Lee said:
It's a loose analogy of course, but the theme of audio having some very negative people online is very true.

You can measure some stuff but not others. But anyone with critical listening skills knows that the ability to reproduce sound, both digital and analog sourced is getting better all the time. The ML 360 S is completely destroyed by the MSB Select 2, dCS Vivaldi or Rossini, and the Wadax. This stuff also beats the Wadia line handily. I like the Meitner and Weiss gear but have not heard the latest versions so won't comment.

Why don’t you put them head to head with a blind panel...call it “Then and Now”...see which they prefer...it would be interesting what gets “destroyed “...you might be shocked.

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