Low Noise Floor? Why?

Ron Resnick said:

When I go to Walt Disney Concert Hall to hear a classical concert the ambient noise level is not low. I hear really old people wheezing and Boomers snoring and couples yakking and Millennials playing on their smart phones and kids crinkling potato chips packages.

So why the audiophile obsession with a low noise floor? Doesn't that take us away from the sensation of re-creating the experience of a live venue?

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when i go to an audio show and listen to 50 rooms over three days and then come home to my dedicated room, the involuntary ease and relaxation i get from the lack of ambient noise is like a drug. i'm floating. melting into the music. it's completely immersive, alive and connective without distraction. i love it completely and want for nothing different. never want to leave.

not claiming it's as 'live' as 'live'. but the connection is just as real....for me.

OTOH communal listening (live or shows or friends homes) has an energy that can bring it's own type of flow overcoming the distractions too. but different. power of groups. it's real.

personally i choose my room mostly at this point in my life. i'm an old coot who wants to be in my own space.

if i was a serious audiophile 30-40 years ago my priorities might be different. or maybe if my career was more solitary i would have different priorities. i've been go-go-go 6 days a week for 48 years. peace and music for me.

Ron Resnick said:

... I hear really old people wheezing and Boomers snoring and couples yakking and Millennials playing on their smart phones and kids crinkling potato chips packages.

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Noise from snack packages aside you are mentioning 'human noise' iow the crowd. As Mike alludes to the social / human element also brings its own 'energy' and we are social beings. Perhaps we 'balance' these noise impacts more easily when from this source?

Meanwhile if you mentioned loud hvac, buzzing lights and dimmers, and the faint sound of sirens from the street...I think these would be considered less 'a part of the experience' and more as a nuisance to be eliminated.

To paraphrase WS: the fault lies not in our stars but in Walt Disney Hall.

Try to attend a rehearsal.

One of my seminal live music experiences at Chicago symphony hall was when I was a child eating rice crispy squares. I just never heard that snap crackle and pop from digital, so about 15 years ago I decided to go vinyl only and now I’m a kid again enjoying the natural sound of vinyl reproduction. I’ve never liked black backgrounds. They’re just not natural.

A lower noisefloor means less distortion / artifacts. Less distortion / artifacts means more music / purity. And that is - at least for me - what our (audio) hobby is all about: experience music as pure / unmechanical as possible.

Ron Resnick said:

When I go to Walt Disney Concert Hall to hear a classical concert the ambient noise level is not low. I hear really old people wheezing and Boomers snoring and couples yakking and Millennials playing on their smart phones and kids crinkling potato chips packages.

So why the audiophile obsession with a low noise floor? Doesn't that take us away from the sensation of re-creating the experience of a live venue?

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What Rudolf said.

Low noise floor has nothing to do with occasional coughing and wheezing. Concert halls have, in audio terminology a low noise floor. And there is a reason if you hum constantly during a live performance your neighbors will shush you because you have now increased their noise floor and they are unable to listen properly to the music

btw have never been to concert where people had chips, or were constantly yakking or had crispy squares. Chips happen at the beginning and every now and then in movie theaters but never in concert halls. People here don't eat in concert halls, only during the break where they eat in the area near the restaurant/bar. Even smart phone play is rare (my brief camera recordings are transgressions and I have to do them without actually playing with the phone) and you will immediately get nudged by a stranger to put it away.

Your question takes away from what a low noise floor actually is which is just lowering distortion. Music will sound better at lower volume levels, more clear, you will hear more, dynamic range will increase, you will be able to increase volume without music distorting. Even if you cough every now and then will be fine

As Rudolph and Ked said.

Low noise floor in a system is required to hear the actual recorded ambience whether that be human related noise in a live performance or near deadly silence in a studio.

If you have a high system noise floor, retrieving such information is reduced dramatically because you aren’t hearing the information captured on the recording only but that overlaid with an electrical hash from mains and such like from a poor system!

Also don’t forget that recordings of orchestras aren’t typically done live anyway so you shouldn’t be hearing the plebeians chomping their crisps during it. A live performance is different and they have their own charm. For non classical, many are studio recordings so again you won’t have noise from an audience. There are of course exceptions.

Audiocrack said:

A lower noisefloor means less distortion / artifacts. Less distortion / artifacts means more music / purity. And that is - at least for me - what our (audio) hobby is all about: experience music as pure / unmechanical as possible.

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No. Noise doesn't necessarily directly translate to distortion. That's why we have the standard THD+N, that's total harmonic distortion + noise. Now it can abberate the music but it doesn't affect THD - but can affect linear distortion. And artifacts? No, artifacts mean the component is DAMAGED or has a severely bad connection on the digital side. You can't get artifacts in normal playback aside from the sound of clicks and pops in vinyl. In order for it to come through the speakers from the power side you'd need something severe like a lightening strike or transformer popping somewhere not far off.

And as far as experiencing music as pure as possible... That's a load of shit given that the best measuring stuff is nearly completely hated on this forum. So clearly what makes something sound good is not as you say, or what you say...

bonzo75 said:

Your question takes away from what a low noise floor actually is which is just lowering distortion. Music will sound better at lower volume levels, more clear, you will hear more, dynamic range will increase, you will be able to increase volume without music distorting. Even if you cough every now and then will be fine

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Incorrect, see above. These are unrelated factors. To the same effect that you can have an amplifier that has a sizzle with your head next to the speaker but gives you all the qualities you list in spades, and even well over other amplifiers that have no sizzle.



But Ron does bring up a good point, does the noise matter? Well it really depends on what kind and where it is/comes from. Slightly noisy tubes and transistors clearly don't seem to be a problem at all except for with overly paranoid electrical engineers that can stand the idea of it, despite having no evidence what so ever that there is an audible issue. But the moment you start connecting kitty litter boxes as antennas the parasitic or other effects cause desirable or undesirable results (depends who you ask). Consider the rebadged Marantz CD players being sold for tens of thousands of dollars with only the addition of a noisy output... or the super high end amps that have a dirty transistor at the input but get awards and praise all day. Clearly noise is a double edged sword, usable for good by some and not others, and never universally binary. Sometimes it makes things awful, other times it's a byproduct of other superior qualities. There's no much of a reason to develop philosophy on it, just listen to the gear you like.

Folsom said:

No. Noise doesn't necessarily directly translate to distortion. That's why we have the standard THD+N, that's total harmonic distortion + noise. Now it can abberate the music but it doesn't affect THD - but can affect linear distortion. And artifacts? No, artifacts mean the component is DAMAGED or has a severely bad connection on the digital side. You can't get artifacts in normal playback aside from the sound of clicks and pops in vinyl. In order for it to come through the speakers from the power side you'd need something severe like a lightening strike or transformer popping somewhere not far off.

And as far as experiencing music as pure as possible... That's a load of shit given that the best measuring stuff is nearly completely hated on this forum. So clearly what makes something sound good is not as you say, or what you say...



Incorrect, see above. These are unrelated factors. To the same effect that you can have an amplifier that has a sizzle with your head next to the speaker but gives you all the qualities you list in spades, and even well over other amplifiers that have no sizzle.



But Ron does bring up a good point, does the noise matter? Well it really depends on what kind and where it is/comes from. Slightly noisy tubes and transistors clearly don't seem to be a problem at all except for with overly paranoid electrical engineers that can stand the idea of it, despite having no evidence what so ever that there is an audible issue. But the moment you start connecting kitty litter boxes as antennas the parasitic or other effects cause desirable or undesirable results (depends who you ask). Consider the rebadged Marantz CD players being sold for tens of thousands of dollars with only the addition of a noisy output... or the super high end amps that have a dirty transistor at the input but get awards and praise all day. Clearly noise is a double edged sword, usable for good by some and not others, and never universally binary. Sometimes it makes things awful, other times it's a byproduct of other superior qualities. There's no much of a reason to develop philosophy on it, just listen to the gear you like.

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As always we strongly disagree. And that is (totally) fine (with me).

Mike Lavigne said:

if i was a serious audiophile 30-40 years ago my priorities might be different.

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I agree, you have just not been serious about the hobby last 5 years or so.

bonzo75 said:

I agree, you have just not been serious about the hobby last 5 years or so.

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trying to convince my wife of that. she is not buying it. i'll let her know that you agree with me, i'm sure that will help a great deal.

Low room noise matters as much as THD noise in equipment. The glass on my living room window helps to mitigate the planes overhead. But they are still loud. The big pass through to my kitchen allows the refrigerator to be a complete nuisance.

At the symphony an old lady was crinkling a.wrapper. i about smacked her upside the head with her own cane. Then I got the evil turn around eye for laughing.

Rock concerts are the only place noise is really accepted, and even then a wanabe sing along or too many fan clap along stints can ruin the show.

My $.02, there are a few kinds of noise:

Room noise or the base SPL in your room, which includes both outside sources like traffic, and some types of system noise like a bit of hum uncorrelated to volume, is certainly an issue and requires you to play at higher SPLs to compensate. But, it's overall much less harmful vs other kinds of noise imo.

If audible noise like hum or buzz is correlated to volume levels or the music, it's a much larger issue and a big problem.

Electrical noise from dirty AC power, triboelectric noise in cables, magnetization, static, EMI/RFI often causes the sound to be hard and fatiguing. When removed it makes the sound more relaxed and easy to listen to. If there's a lot of noise it can cause audible artifacts and distortions like harshness, a glassy sound, and is immediately fatiguing. This is unusual, but can happen in environments like audio shows, so many here have likely experienced it... it makes you want to leave the room quickly! IME, most systems have some of this kind of electrical noise whether it's known or not, and it's presence is often only noticed when it's removed.

Someone on this site who is much smarter than I said that he finds, at least with SET amps, that maybe a little noise is better. I've found this to be true with my amp. When I'm able to dial out the slight ambient hum with tube choice and other methods the amp sounds a bit constricted. No idea why. Just my experience.

Ron Resnick said:

When I go to Walt Disney Concert Hall to hear a classical concert the ambient noise level is not low. I hear really old people wheezing and Boomers snoring and couples yakking and Millennials playing on their smart phones and kids crinkling potato chips packages.

So why the audiophile obsession with a low noise floor? Doesn't that take us away from the sensation of re-creating the experience of a live venue?

Click to expand...

I think context is the issue in this questions.

For me, Noise Floor in the context of a system is how one describes the level of distortion. The lower the noise floor, the less distortion there is in the system.

"Noise floor" as you describe at a venue is what I would call ambient sound. If you have a live recording with high levels of ambient sound, it can create an incredible sense of space from the venue. Especially with speakers that optimally replicate that ambient signal picked up by the microphone during recording.

Fishfood said:

Someone on this site who is much smarter than I said that he finds, at least with SET amps, that maybe a little noise is better. I've found this to be true with my amp. When I'm able to dial out the slight ambient hum with tube choice and other methods the amp sounds a bit constricted. No idea why. Just my experience.

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Qualities that matter to sound may be expressed on noisier transistors and tubes. Many of the most thermally stable are not the lowest noise.

Ron Resnick said:

When I go to Walt Disney Concert Hall to hear a classical concert the ambient noise level is not low. I hear really old people wheezing and Boomers snoring and couples yakking and Millennials playing on their smart phones and kids crinkling potato chips packages.

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True. To recreate the Disney Concert Hall experience during a listening session, I like to drop my smart phone on the floor a few times.

To some having noise is anathema but I have not reached that stage. Trying the ground boxes merely made me feel like I had a cold, albeit in a quieter environment.

Fishfood said:

Someone on this site who is much smarter than I said that he finds, at least with SET amps, that maybe a little noise is better. I've found this to be true with my amp. When I'm able to dial out the slight ambient hum with tube choice and other methods the amp sounds a bit constricted. No idea why. Just my experience.

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Good point, it is in fact true ime, depending on the recording...

I have a friend who makes electronic music and in most cases for electronica and many cases for studio recordings of all kinds, pleasant noise and/or distortion is indeed added because it sounds more natural. This would be most similar to uncorrelated noise in the listening room via the gear or ambient noise. I have heard the same music with and without noise added and it does sound better with, at least in this case. I think most live recordings would have enough noise built-in depending on gear and technique used, the noise added to electronica matches what our ear expects to hear live.

This is why correlated noise is so bad and uncorrelated noise is a lot less harmful than many believe.