Seeking SPU tonearm advice

Don_Camillo said:
P.S.: I also tried this with Micro Seiki MA-505 and Linn Ittok LV II. Same result here; it´s a fairy tale and not true at all :cool: :p
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I tried it (zeroing dynamic vtf and using static vtf by counterweight) with SME V and couldn’t get a better sound. My experience matches with yours. IMHO Dynamic vtf is better on a dynamically balanced tonearm.
 
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Not to mention, regarding the FR64S, that it does not seem prudent to leave the spring system 'unloaded', at least to my thinking. I have fiddled with partial split ( less on dial or more on dial ).
 
Don_Camillo said:
I know about those fairy tales. But did you try it out yourself? I did and this saying isn´t true

P.S.: I also tried this with Micro Seiki MA-505 and Linn Ittok LV II. Same result here; it´s a fairy tale and not true at all :cool: :p
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No, I did not try it myself, and I no longer own the FR-64S, but the recommendation came directly to me from a very well known tonearm maker in Germany!
 
Hello,
there are some tonearm manufacturer who gives concrete recommendations on the use of dynamic vtf combined with static vtf.
Mr. Brakemeier from Acoustical Systems recommends at least 92% statical.
The old Sumiko MDC 800 „THE Arm“ was recommended to use with 2/3 static and 1/3 dynamic vtf.
I use my Shindo Meursault (=tuned Ortofon RF297) with about 80% static vtf with excellent results.

I think, even in this theme there are several opinions and ways, and some of us favors other ways. But no need to speek of fairytale or similar discrediting descriptions…
 
I am interested in the SPU series and associated tonearms. Does anyone have any updates or information to share on this older thread.
 
AudioHR said:
I am interested in the SPU series and associated tonearms. Does anyone have any updates or information to share on this older thread.
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The new GrooveMaster 4 (GM4) tonearm is a really nice match for SPUs. Yes, it's a high mass arm and that's a good starting point for any SPU, but the GM4's bearings and resonance control seem to be as good as I've ever observed. My own torture test for tonearms is the entry-level SPU#1S, which is a bit of an unruly beast, sounding terrible in arms that cannot deal with the physical energy that SPUs inflict on the arm; however, fitted to the the GM4 my well-used SPU#1S managed the 80 μm peak lateral tracking ability test on Ortofon's Test Record without a hint of complaint, then very nearly passed the 90 μm test and only gave up at 100 μm. Ortofon only claim 60μm tracking ability for most SPUs. This particular SPU#1S cannot repeat that outstanding tracking performance in any other arm that I have here.

Aside from tracking ability, the GM4 succeeds in making the SPU#1S sound smooth, articulate, and indeed far more expensive than it is, and only the limited resolution of the bonded spherical tip holds it back. Apart from the SPU#1S, my favorite modern SPU is the Synergy, and I must try one of those on the GM4 some day - I'm sure it will be magnificent.

Apart from the GrooveMaster 4, the other arm that impressed me recently is the new 9" Ortofon AS-212R (12" version is AS-309R). Boring looks hide beautiful build quality, very high tolerance bearings, and nice no-nonsense handling characteristics. It does a very good job of controlling SPUs, as you'd hope from Ortofon: that was a surprise because this is a pretty low effective mass design, but somehow they've made it work. Not GM4 levels of musical control and expression, but still extremely good. Price looks at first glance bit high at €3000, but these arms do justify the pricing, in my opinion/experience. But a GM4 is something else.

That's a start - I hope it helps
 
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Shuggie said:
The new GrooveMaster 4 (GM4) tonearm is a really nice match for SPUs. Yes, it's a high mass arm and that's a good starting point for any SPU, but the GM4's bearings and resonance control seem to be as good as I've ever observed. My own torture test for tonearms is the entry-level SPU#1S, which is a bit of an unruly beast, sounding terrible in arms that cannot deal with the physical energy that SPUs inflict on the arm; however, fitted to the the GM4 my well-used SPU#1S managed the 80 μm peak lateral tracking ability test on Ortofon's Test Record without a hint of complaint, then very nearly passed the 90 μm test and only gave up at 100 μm. Ortofon only claim 60μm tracking ability for most SPUs. This particular SPU#1S cannot repeat that outstanding tracking performance in any other arm that I have here.

Aside from tracking ability, the GM4 succeeds in making the SPU#1S sound smooth, articulate, and indeed far more expensive than it is, and only the limited resolution of the bonded spherical tip holds it back. Apart from the SPU#1S, my favorite modern SPU is the Synergy, and I must try one of those on the GM4 some day - I'm sure it will be magnificent.

Apart from the GrooveMaster 4, the other arm that impressed me recently is the new 9" Ortofon AS-212R (12" version is AS-309R). Boring looks hide beautiful build quality, very high tolerance bearings, and nice no-nonsense handling characteristics. It does a very good job of controlling SPUs, as you'd hope from Ortofon: that was a surprise because this is a pretty low effective mass design, but somehow they've made it work. Not GM4 levels of musical control and expression, but still extremely good. Price looks at first glance bit high at €3000, but these arms do justify the pricing, in my opinion/experience. But a GM4 is something else.

That's a start - I hope it helps
Click to expand...
Have you ever tried the SPU#1S on the RS-309D or RS-212D?
 
miniguy said:
Have you ever tried the SPU#1S on the RS-309D or RS-212D?
Click to expand...
No - I've never had the chance and those old Ortofon arms have not been available for some time.

There is also the question of slightly curious Japanese alignment geometry with these older Ortofon arms, explained at https://ortofon.com/pages/rs-309d-12 , which might matter for SPU cartridges where the tip ends up being in the wrong place. The current Ortofon arms (and GrooveMasters, Glanz) have native Baerwald geometry which is correct for G Shell SPUs, assuming the arm is mounted at the stated distance from the platter spindle.
 
To investigate SPU cartridges, I’ve purchased a variety:
- Ortofon SPU Classic GM E MkII, Elliptical
- Ortofon SPU E GM Gold - LIMITED EDITION with 4N PURE SILVER COIL, only 2000 unit was produced, Elliptical
- Ortofon SPU Century , shibata

SPU tonearm I’ve started with a Thomas Schick. Alfred Bokrand modified ortofon tonearms is another option. Top Glanz tonearms seems to be the very best for SPUs.
 
Shuggie said:
The new GrooveMaster 4 (GM4) tonearm is a really nice match for SPUs. Yes, it's a high mass arm and that's a good starting point for any SPU, but the GM4's bearings and resonance control seem to be as good as I've ever observed. My own torture test for tonearms is the entry-level SPU#1S, which is a bit of an unruly beast, sounding terrible in arms that cannot deal with the physical energy that SPUs inflict on the arm; however, fitted to the the GM4 my well-used SPU#1S managed the 80 μm peak lateral tracking ability test on Ortofon's Test Record without a hint of complaint, then very nearly passed the 90 μm test and only gave up at 100 μm. Ortofon only claim 60μm tracking ability for most SPUs. This particular SPU#1S cannot repeat that outstanding tracking performance in any other arm that I have here.

Aside from tracking ability, the GM4 succeeds in making the SPU#1S sound smooth, articulate, and indeed far more expensive than it is, and only the limited resolution of the bonded spherical tip holds it back. Apart from the SPU#1S, my favorite modern SPU is the Synergy, and I must try one of those on the GM4 some day - I'm sure it will be magnificent.

Apart from the GrooveMaster 4, the other arm that impressed me recently is the new 9" Ortofon AS-212R (12" version is AS-309R). Boring looks hide beautiful build quality, very high tolerance bearings, and nice no-nonsense handling characteristics. It does a very good job of controlling SPUs, as you'd hope from Ortofon: that was a surprise because this is a pretty low effective mass design, but somehow they've made it work. Not GM4 levels of musical control and expression, but still extremely good. Price looks at first glance bit high at €3000, but these arms do justify the pricing, in my opinion/experience. But a GM4 is something else.

That's a start - I hope it helps
Click to expand...
Congratulations on your GrooveMaster iV.

I run my different SPU A with a GrooveMaster III special version to fit SPU A headshells only, but never could reach more as 60 μm.

ImhO it's nice to know that your SPU #1 S exceeds 90 μm on a test track, but what does it mean in reality?

Even 60 μm as stated by Ortofons official brochure, it's miles enough for tracking any "normal" LP.

Also, my SPU Wood A with it spherical tip is the most musical system of all my SPUs. So limited resolution ok but musical resolution is "unlimited" ;)
 
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McDee275 said:
Congratulations on your GrooveMaster iV.

I run my different SPU A with a GrooveMaster III special version to fit SPU A headshells only, but never could reach more as 60 μm.

ImhO it's nice to know that your SPU #1 S exceeds 90 μm on a test track, but what does it mean in reality?

Even 60 μm as stated by Ortofons official brochure, it's miles enough for tracking any "normal" LP.

Also, my SPU Wood A with it spherical tip is the most musical system of all my SPUs. So limited resolution ok but musical resolution is "unlimited" ;)
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I think that good tracking ability is a broadly desirable characteristic, contributing to lower distortion and an assured sound character, but maybe not something to be chased at all costs (Shure V15?). My SPU#1S does not exceed the 90μm tracking ability test on the Ortofon Test LP with the GrooveMaster 4, but it did come quite close to passing that test. In any case 80μm tracking ability for any cartridge is extremely good - SPUs are most definitely not noted for great tracking ability, but do major on musical exuberance and musical resolution (not the same thing as detail resolution, as you note). The GrooveMaster 4 seems to be a quite magical match for SPUs, bringing out their best musical qualities while taming their worst characteristics. It works very well with a cheap Rega ND3 cartridge, too. The GrooveMaster 3 remains excellent value, and still a great match for SPUs, but there is a world of difference between the (still available) GrooveMaster 3 and GrooveMaster 4, as you might reasonably expect given the price differential.

The SPU Wood A was the most musically sublime thing - Art Dudley wrote that it 'teased poetry from mere sound', which is a nice way of summing it up. You are right about limited resolution, and that just goes to show that a technically accomplished cartridge might not actually be any good at playing music, but 9 out of 10 people will chase exotic specs and fancy tip profiles, in preference to anything with a bonded spherical tip like the Wood A, or indeed the SPU#1S. It's just a shame that, while the SPU Wood A was intensely 'musical', it was not reliable.
 
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Hi,

when discussing SPU we heve to realise that there is not just one SPU but rather a line-up of different ones.

Few examples mentioned in the discussions just before my post:
- SPU Wood A (nude spherical tip, short wooden shell)
- SPU #1 (bonded spherical tip, long resin shell)
- Ortofon SPU Classic GM E MkII, (nude elliptical tip, long resin shell)
- Ortofon SPU E GM Gold - LIMITED EDITION with 4N PURE SILVER COIL, (nude hyper elliptical tip, long metal shell)
- Ortofon SPU Century (nude shibata tip, long hybrid shell)

It's most likely that you won't find a "one tonearm suits all" sollution for this variety of cartridges.

Best regards, Tony
 
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Lynnot said:
Hi,

when discussing SPU we heve to realise that there is not just one SPU but rather a line-up of different ones.

Few examples mentioned in the discussions just before my post:
- SPU Wood A (nude spherical tip, short wooden shell)
- SPU #1 (bonded spherical tip, long resin shell)
- Ortofon SPU Classic GM E MkII, (nude elliptical tip, long resin shell)
- Ortofon SPU E GM Gold - LIMITED EDITION with 4N PURE SILVER COIL, (nude hyper elliptical tip, long metal body)
- Ortofon SPU Century (nude shibata tip, long hybrid shell)

It's most likely that you won't find a "one tonearm suits all" sollution for this variety of cartridges.

Best regards, Tony
Click to expand...
For a notable list of SPUs, I would add the A90 and A95 versions, which employed expensive SLM printed metal generator chassis rather than plastic which is used across the range nowadays, including the (lovely and discontinued) Century. It would be nice if Ortofon revisited the A90 and A95 designs, now that SLM manufacture is no longer as expensive as it was at the time.

There are indeed many SPU versions, but they are all high-mass, low compliance designs that ideally demand a high mass arm with very good control of resonance. So, what works well with one SPU will most likely work equally well with the others, although of course different arms may have individual sonic signatures that some users may like, and others dislike.
 
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Lynnot said:
Hi,

when discussing SPU we heve to realise that there is not just one SPU but rather a line-up of different ones.

Few examples mentioned in the discussions just before my post:
- SPU Wood A (nude spherical tip, short wooden shell)
- SPU #1 (bonded spherical tip, long resin shell)
- Ortofon SPU Classic GM E MkII, (nude elliptical tip, long resin shell)
- Ortofon SPU E GM Gold - LIMITED EDITION with 4N PURE SILVER COIL, (nude hyper elliptical tip, long metal shell)
- Ortofon SPU Century (nude shibata tip, long hybrid shell)

It's most likely that you won't find a "one tonearm suits all" sollution for this variety of cartridges.

Best regards, Tony
Click to expand...
Hi Tony,

may I correct you in one part of your a.m. list.

The Wood A has a bonded spherical tip, not a nude one.

Why should a GrooveMaster tonearm not suit all the a.m. SPUs if it comes to balancing the "heavy"-weight, the high tracking force and the low compliance of these cartridges?
 
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This seems to be a the most active Ortofon SPU thread so I will pose a few questions here.

As I wanted to experience the classic SPU sound I purchased an Ortofon Classic GE Mk II. I added a GrooveMaster III to an Artisan Fidelity Garrard 301 Signature V.2 and I am extremely pleased with the broad brush stroke soundstage and how individual vocals and instruments just seem to be there with "meat on the bone!" I recognize a few faults too, lol, but they in my mind are minor compared to the extremely musical and dare I say realistic performance provided.

I am presently using an Icon Audio SUT (1:20) with my Shindo Monbrison preamp. The combo is dead quiet with ample gain and sounds, well very good. Having not experienced any other SUTs I do wonder if there might be an even better match? Your experience and input on this is welcome.

The initial setup has been done and as I play the cartridge it just seems to get better and better. Different records likely (do) require a particular VTA. I am not one to try and dial in for every record but I am new to the SPU so I would ask what users works best for them and what is the best way to set up this cartridges's VTA?

Presently I have concentrated on keeping the bottom of the SPU parallel to the record. So obviously with different records this varies and unless you are very easily able to correct VTA it is only going to be correct with one thickness of vinyl. What are others finding, do you have a go to setting?

CheersIMG_2739.jpeg
 
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Hi,

as VTA varies with VTF, I wonder at what VTF you play your Classic GE Mk II?
(VTF up means VTA down)

Best regards, Tony
 
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Lynnot said:
Hi,

as VTA varies with VTF, I wonder at what VTF you play your Classic GE Mk II?
(VTF up means VTA down)

Best regards, Tony
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I have set the VTF at the recommended 4 grams. The bottom base of the SPU is set so that it is parallel to the record surface. Of course this changes in tandem with the record thickness.

The SPU is new to me so for now I am just listening. The GrooveMaster arm does not allow for adjusting VTA on the fly. Even if it did I would not likely use this feature. My methodology has always been to find the settings that make the majority of my records sound their best, set it and just enjoy the music.

For clarification, what do you mean when you say VTA down? Bearing end of cartridge down I would think.

Cheers
Mike
 
First,

My congratulation to you for this wonderful turntable. :)


I am using the GrooveMaster III (304,75mm P2S) by myself, but in a special version to use SPU A only.

Audio-Creative produce the GrooveMaster tonearms a VTA on the fly, called RotaryLift. Ask your dealer about it.

The 1:20 ratio of your Icon Audio is OK but imhO not enough to bring your SPU GE MkII with it o,2mV output to the full potential it is capable of.

I use on the phono input of my McIntosh C22CE the Jensen Transformer MC-2RR-H Moving Coil SUT, containing two JT-34K-DX step-up transformers with a 1:37 ration and 31dB gain.

Works very good with my Ortofon SPU Wood A, MeisterSilver A and Ae.

The Jensen has not only the adequate gain to bring the low-output of the SPUs to their full potential, it is also totally quiet without any hum or hiss, sounds excellent, producing a deep, clear bass, sweet mids and clean highs and comes, at the end, with a reasonable price tag. So what do I want more?

The 0,2mV output voltage of your SPU-GE MkII will give you together with the Jensens 1:37 approx. 7,4mV at the phono input (47kOhm) of your Shindo Monbrison. Should be a piece of cake for this excellent preamp.


And please, try to adjust your anti-scating with a test-LP. You will need much less as you expect. Believe me.
 
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Regular VTA is about 20°, raising VTF might result in a reduction of VTA, like going down to about 16°.
A too low VTF might couse for VTA to be too high, like in the range of 24°.

VTF VTA Tracking.jpg

With an optimum arround 1.5 gram obviously not a SPU ...
 
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McDee275 said:
First,

My congratulation to you for this wonderful turntable. :)


I am using the GrooveMaster III (304,75mm P2S) by myself, but in a special version to use SPU A only.

Audio-Creative produce the GrooveMaster tonearms a VTA on the fly, called RotaryLift. Ask your dealer about it.

The 1:20 ratio of your Icon Audio is OK but imhO not enough to bring your SPU GE MkII with it o,2mV output to the full potential it is capable of.

I use on the phono input of my McIntosh C22CE the Jensen Transformer MC-2RR-H Moving Coil SUT, containing two JT-34K-DX step-up transformers with a 1:37 ration and 31dB gain.

Works very good with my Ortofon SPU Wood A, MeisterSilver A and Ae.

The Jensen has not only the adequate gain to bring the low-output of the SPUs to their full potential, it is also totally quiet without any hum or hiss, sounds excellent, producing a deep, clear bass, sweet mids and clean highs and comes, at the end, with a reasonable price tag. So what do I want more?

The 0,2mV output voltage of your SPU-GE MkII will give you together with the Jensens 1:37 approx. 7,4mV at the phono input (47kOhm) of your Shindo Monbrison. Should be a piece of cake for this excellent preamp.


And please, try to adjust your anti-scating with a test-LP. You will need much less as you expect. Believe me.
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Thank you very much for your response! The turntable is definitely a beauty.

I suspect you are correct on my Icon SUT not bringing out the best in my GE MK II. It is an excellent SUT but may not be the best for a .2 mv output. The Jensen is a good tip. I will investigate this further.

Haven't played with the anti skate at all but yes with a 12" arm I wouldn't expect to have to dial in much or any bias. Did you have a test LP in mind?
 
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