Collecting names - tube preamps with onboard tube MM phono stages
- Thread starter Tangram
- Start date
Stefan "das gute Ohr"
Only for clarity, Thoeress is not using step up transformers. His first stage for Phono is a J-Fet/Tube Cascode.
Reinhard
Only for clarity, Thoeress is not using step up transformers. His first stage for Phono is a J-Fet/Tube Cascode.
Reinhard
2023 latest price I think is a little more and looking forward to exploring one in early 2024.
The Thoeress Full Function Pre with remote looks to be an interesting option for @Tangram and less than the Enhancer price tag, a great one box solution.
I opted for the Dual Funtion Pre and Phono Enhancer MkIII.
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Don’t forget the rather special looking Leben RS28cx pre amplifier. Comes with an excellent built in mm tube phono stage and a separate matching power supply. I use a Coincident SUT to raise the gain to suit my Airtight PC1 supreme mc. Superb sound quality (IMO) for the money. Search for Jeff Day’s detailed review for further information.
Thanks! I’ve seen Leben’s integrated for sale in the Canadian market but admit ignorance of this preamp. Very interesting option. Thanks!
As an update I purchased a Luxman EQ-500, into which I run an Allnic AUT-2000 SUT. I was considering adding a second tonearm and the Luxman has the necessary inputs, plus a lot of effort has gone into the MM input, so I picked on up to try out. The pairing is pleasant-sounding, but maybe a bit dynamically flat. In the end I decided to keep it simple so no second tonearm, which makes the Luxman overkill for my needs, so I have just swapped it out for a Lejonklou Slipsik 8, which is their “reference” standalone MM phono pre. I hooked it up just last night for the first time so I’ll refrain from making any comments on the sound. But it does beg the question whether a high quality MM phono preamp paired with a high quality SUT can sound as good as a decent MC phono pre, but in a simpler package.
The EQ500 is known as a VERY Dynamic phono pre so you must have set up your MM cartridge wrong…
It should sound like a Nuke with inner glow…
I’m not very Good with settings and such but this was peculiar. There should be dynamics galore.
Look into settings because Something is off with your observation…
But now you don’t have it anymore? The EQ500?
So, you Are using MC’s with SUT’s into MM phono amplification and you want to Get as Good sound as a very Good MC phonoamp Setup can achieve?
I’m confused here, that is what you want to achieve?
Kiseki has 42 ohms coil resistance …
Etsuro has 3 ohms..
How about a transimpedance current amplifying phono for the etsuro? That must be a lot better than trying SuT MM phono!!
Running a very low resistance phono mc cart into a MM Amp Even with a SUT is, not Vulcan Logic in My book at least. I’m a vinyl noob, but this seems just like … wrong?
How about you look at the AQVOX PHONO 2 Ci MK I/MKII . It is like a gem. really old but a real toolRead about what the aqvox can do... chest of wonders..
You could then:
Run with SUT into MM input - Voltage source
Run without SUT into Current/transimpedance MC input - Current source.
One box... No tubes...cheap.. some reviewers loves it. And for you needs it provides for a test rig for your experiments.. I would assume this would be fun.
Your travels is way above My vinyl insights, but I think it is cool that you hunt for a Good combo.
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A lot to unpack in your post but I’ll try.
No setup errors were made. While the Luxman MM has a couple of adjustments, I didn’t use them since I was running the SUT into the MM input.
The goal is a simple MM phono pre matched with an adjustable SUT which achieves equal or better sound to a good MC phono pre. Don’t get me wrong - the Luxman does a lot of things right - but I only need a bare bones setup with one input, not six (three inputs, each MM or MC configurable.) And the MC input on the Luxman pails compared with the Allnic SUT into the Luxman MM. I still have the Luxman, as well as the EAR 868pl, so I’ll do some comparison listening in due course.
I won’t be doing anymore phono pre purchasing for the time being. I’m sure I will get set with one of the three, although using the EAR requires swapping out my LTA integrated for the XA25.
Ok. So you have a 3 ohm coil load MC cart.
When connected to the SUT it (The Etsuro) sees a load that divides the MM Phono input loads by the turns (in the transformer) squared
47 thousand ohms by a Allnic 2000 S.U.T then gives 3 answers (we just take some examples) (What the coil in the cartridge is actually loaded by..)
15 turns ratio becomes 47k/15^2= 208,9 ohms = 24db Gain
20 turns ratio becomes 47k/20^2= 117,5 ohms = 26db Gain (the same as Etsuro own S.U.T) You want this setting..
30 turns ratio becomes 47k/30^2= 52,3 ohms = 30db Gain
Any other MM Load setting, just exchange 47 thousand with that number..
Usually one assumes that the coil in the cartridge is +/- the actual rating. (usually 20 percent up or down)
3 ohms is then 2.4 - 3.75 ohms ish. Close enough.. Ideal would be if the Etsuro was 5 ohms.. )
What is the Etsuros most ideal load? It would be well below the 117.5 ohms presented by your setup. (it would be 14 ohms = 5x3.75) its not possible)
Usually MC load is 5 (up to 10x..) times internal rating of the cart, considered ideal by most mc manufacturers.
But MM is different... usually this logic isnt correct.
But at least less than 35 (MM load of 14 thou ohms would make it sing like top motch MC Phono can…
But if it helps. You should load with 117.5 ohms and with 26db gain.(20x) (or if you chose another gain, just look at what I wrote.
So 117.5/5 = 23,5 ohms (Ideal internal coil resistance in this setup would be 23-24 ohms in the phono cartridge) But that is just pure quesswork as circuit and 100 other factors may affect end result. But 24 ohms is my best guess for perfect for MC with SUT into MM phono with 47k ohms load..
I will add... The lower the ohms inside cart, the more current it pushes, and less voltage.. as a see saw balance view..
And really low ohms inside cart, starts to need transconductanse amping, or current mode phono.
So This is what I believe to be right, but I am not Vinyl at heart, so pardon my inquisitivity.. and if I am way off. Well, I will learn
When connected to the SUT it (The Etsuro) sees a load that divides the MM Phono input loads by the turns (in the transformer) squared
47 thousand ohms by a Allnic 2000 S.U.T then gives 3 answers (we just take some examples) (What the coil in the cartridge is actually loaded by..)
15 turns ratio becomes 47k/15^2= 208,9 ohms = 24db Gain
20 turns ratio becomes 47k/20^2= 117,5 ohms = 26db Gain (the same as Etsuro own S.U.T) You want this setting..
30 turns ratio becomes 47k/30^2= 52,3 ohms = 30db Gain
Any other MM Load setting, just exchange 47 thousand with that number..
Usually one assumes that the coil in the cartridge is +/- the actual rating. (usually 20 percent up or down)
3 ohms is then 2.4 - 3.75 ohms ish. Close enough.. Ideal would be if the Etsuro was 5 ohms.. )
What is the Etsuros most ideal load? It would be well below the 117.5 ohms presented by your setup. (it would be 14 ohms = 5x3.75) its not possible)
Usually MC load is 5 (up to 10x..) times internal rating of the cart, considered ideal by most mc manufacturers.
But MM is different... usually this logic isnt correct.
But at least less than 35 (MM load of 14 thou ohms would make it sing like top motch MC Phono can…
But if it helps. You should load with 117.5 ohms and with 26db gain.(20x) (or if you chose another gain, just look at what I wrote.
So 117.5/5 = 23,5 ohms (Ideal internal coil resistance in this setup would be 23-24 ohms in the phono cartridge) But that is just pure quesswork as circuit and 100 other factors may affect end result. But 24 ohms is my best guess for perfect for MC with SUT into MM phono with 47k ohms load..
I will add... The lower the ohms inside cart, the more current it pushes, and less voltage.. as a see saw balance view..
And really low ohms inside cart, starts to need transconductanse amping, or current mode phono.
So This is what I believe to be right, but I am not Vinyl at heart, so pardon my inquisitivity.. and if I am way off. Well, I will learn
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Funny, I've been having this very debate with myself. I auditioned the Luxman EQ-500 a while back in a big phono stage shootout. It's a really well-made unit, and it's features are totally on the money for what I want. (Multiple inputs, mono switch, capacitance adjustment for vintage MM carts.) I've actually been thinking about getting one again....
A couple years ago, I found that an Allnic H7000 beat the Lux in most areas. No surprise, I suppose, given the price difference. But I also found, like @Tangram , that the using my Bob's Devices and Slagle SUTs into the EQ-500 MM stage was quite a bit better than the built-in SUTs in the Lux. I think, as transformers for MC carts, they're just okay. In many ways, I preferred an external SUT into something humbler like the EAR 834P.
But, then, how do I get a stage with multiple inputs that can also do MM capacitance adjustment. There aren't many phono pres out there--at least not tube pres--that can do that. On the other hand, it seems like total overkill--and lots of boxes--to run three separate SUTs into the Lux.
Just musing really. The Lux is a cool unit. But I really do think the quality of SUTs matters a great deal.
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Yes. They matter
Also there is another aspect of this. It is like almost 50 years since all this was detailed and laid bare, but very few into Vinyl seems to know or undestand how all this is connected, I include myself in this of course.. I'm a noob.
But I did see something here the other moment...
Jim austin on cartridge loading, dispelling myths (Article in Stereophile)
I will quote the important fact now:
"A second source of confusion may be the use of step-up transformers (SUTs). Just as a transformer reduces the effective load resistance by an amount equal to the turns ratio squared, a SUT multiplies cartridge capacitance by the same amount. That's enough to bring the resonant frequency much closer to the audible range."
Yup. So one could also think that the ability to vary this value might be of interest in setting things up.
A SUT can also, by design, be wound to acomodate varying types of coils in the cartridge. Some SUTS will NEVER give full benefit to some pick ups. And some SUTs can be adjusted on the fly to do just this. Adaptability. It is crazy that vinyl is so complex when you start to look deeply into it.
More important than any other thing in MC cartridge amplification.
That aligns with my experience. In two recent cases (Luxman EQ-500 and EAR 868pl), my Allnic SUT enhanced the sound just the way I like it. The improvement in dynamics and bass “plumpness” compared with the internal SUTs of these pretty decent phono preamps was an eye opener. I’ve used the Allnic with a Lejonklou Slipsik 8 MM phono pre for several extended session and am now firmly in the camp that SUT+MM phono pre is an excellent setup, especially if multiple inputs aren’t needed. The additional percussive slam I get is as if the drummer is pissed off. I like that!
Another option if you own or plan on owning a Luxman EQ-500 phono stage is to replace the factory perfectly capable JJ tubes with much more 'serious' tubes. I have a complete set of the following near NOS Telefunken tubes available which takes this very nice phono stage up into the super serious level. 4x Telefunken 12AX7 tubes, 2x Telefunken 12AU7 tubes along with a Mullard EZ81 rectifier tube. I purchased these as sealed NOS and carefully fitted them into my own SQ500 for a total of two hours - one hour warmup and one hour listening to music. I then removed them and they have remained untouched as I decided not to go ahead with a multi tonearm/cartridge setup. I thought the uplift in SQ was significant. Please google - Luxman eq-500 tone103.062 to read more. If anyone is interested let me know and I can list these tubes in the Classifieds Section. They are not cheap though, (I want US$1500) but that might be considerably less expensive than changing up to a super expensive alternative.
I find SUTs seem to lack the bandwidth; I get less bass impact with them. It also seems that going direct gives a more 3d image.
Loading is for the benefit of the phono section if that phono section has problems with Radio Frequency Interference. The Stereophile article linked misses a point, which is that the electrical resonance set up by the cartridge and capacitance of the tonearm cable can indeed go into oscillation due to energy provided by the cartridge even though its no-where near the same frequency.
If the phono section can't handle the RFI it won't sound right. You detune the resonance (which is otherwise quite peaked) by putting resistor in parallel with it: the 'loading' resistor.
Properly designed phono sections, where the designer understood what can happen when you put an inductance in parallel with a capacitance (electronics 101...) will not sound different with different loading resistors. I suppose its pretty telling how so many phono sections need loading resistors to sound right...
In My youth for a School project I hand wound
- electromotors, coils, inductors chokes and what have you, They Are still on display I believe there in the physics lab. (Also I made a funtional rail gun, a cannon - also on display still ..They were tiny and You discover
How all this work. Interleaving and magnetic fields.
I made speaker drivers, from scratch, got sound and it was fun.
So that is it you know. To have fun.
Most just do that. Deeper insight is for the few.
Mostly I think that a method, a recipe is good.
It may not be all there is, but thus works High end..
Put A component in B product and load it with C value and Get D sound. Utterly correct? Maybe not, but sellable as it is repeatable in the field, mostly, and mysterius and again … fun
Vinyl should be a bit of a mystery, it is the allure
The magic,
I have never built a pickup, but I know how its done, and it would be fun, someday..
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In My youth for a School project I hand wound
- electromotors, coils, inductors chokes and what have you, They Are still on display I believe there in the physics lab. (Also I made a funtional rail gun, a cannon - also on display still ..They were tiny and You discover
How all this work. Interleaving and magnetic fields.
I made speaker drivers, from scratch, got sound and it was fun.
So that is it you know. To have fun.
Most just do that. Deeper insight is for the few.
Mostly I think that a method, a recipe is good.
It may not be all there is, but thus works High end..
Put A component in B product and load it with C value and Get D sound. Utterly correct? Maybe not, but sellable as it is repeatable in the field, mostly, and mysterius and again … fun
Vinyl should be a bit of a mystery, it is the allure
The magic,
I have never built a pickup, but I know how its done, and it would be fun, someday..
So @Imperial are you saying that if the rail gun goes out of control, and turns into an electromagnetic pulse generator, then a tube phono is better?
Well, tubes Are of course always better.So @Imperial are you saying that if the rail gun goes out of control, and turns into an electromagnetic pulse generator, then a tube phono is better?
And EMP you could use for muscle training…
It is importantly to note for new readers, that some forum users, as myself, Even IF we have extremely knowledge, and have personally built just about every internal component from scratch … do not compare Even remotely to the likes of the magical splendor of say @Atmasphere even an iota…
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