This i agree with. While 65hz speaker will clearly show issues, below 40 or so is not a must, even if the bass drum goes down slightly
Natural Sound
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This i agree with. While 65hz speaker will clearly show issues, below 40 or so is not a must, even if the bass drum goes down slightly
depends on how much ambient/venue info is important to you. not always a factor for musical immersion, but sometimes (recording dependent) it matters for the complete picture.
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Ambient venue will depend on the recording, and how good a system is in letting that through
'make it sound natural' implies that I have control over the playback, which I don't. So how natural it will sound will depend on how accurate the system is. If its accurate the voice will sound natural. BTW that can be a bit uncanny; the experience is much like being at home alone and then realizing someone has invaded your home and is singing along with the stereo- then you snap your head around and there's no-one there...
I've never been to Hampstead so can't say. I've heard plenty of indoor concerts though well away from the stage and they seemed to sound just fine.
Here's the problem: phase shift (group delay) is interpreted by the ear as a tonality if it covers a spectrum of frequencies. Unless the designer has taken care to control the group delay, if zero feedback the phase shift of a rolloff in the bass can cause a sense of loss of impact. Even if the speaker can't play the fundamental tone the effect of poor group delay can be heard (although the ear is terrible at sensing phase at only one frequency) up to ten times the cut off frequency. So if the electronics only go to 20Hz you'll hear artifacts as high as 200Hz.
When a smaller driver has lower frequencies that are out of band on it, a fair amount of excursion can result since quite often the driver isn't loaded. You see this in open baffle setups quite a lot. When the driver isn't loaded, Doppler Effect distortion occurs, causing the presentation to be congested.
I enjoy playing my KLH model 21 radio which I restored. It sits in the kitchen , looks nice and plays almost daily. But I hear material on it that I know has significant bass and that keeps me from being completely drawn in. OTOH my stereo can play all that information so its a lot easier to wind up sitting there playing music for extended periods. This is all about involvement.
If you know the bass is there and its not getting played, hard to call that natural by any stretch no matter how well the rest of it plays. If you don't know what frequencies are in the recording below 40Hz you might be perfectly happy unless you're wondering why what you are hearing is so congested. Of course you may not realize that's happening unless you were there for the actual musical event.
The example of the two orchestras above is a red herring and is irrelevant.
Huh. So there's a cutoff frequency...? Are you having it both ways?
Everything is about balance, thought that is obvious. Only stereotypical audiophiles keep arguing in black and white. Did you really expect an argument that one can listen to great tone and coherence with nothing required below 200 hz?
Ralph, I wrote that you are in charge of all decisions, recording and playback. You make recordings and design gear. I presume you would use your own recording and playback gear/system for most natural and accurate, but perhaps something else.
The point is that a voice does not go down to the bottom octave and you wrote a system could not be natural and accurate if it does not go down all the way. I think that a voice can be recorded and played back to sound natural on a system that is not fully extended. I suspect you agree, especially if you control all variables involved. If so, then a system can sound natural, as I suggest in this thread.
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But he has it all figured out , don’t ya’ know…and these are his talking points…
There is a pleasure in achieving that hint of unlimited clean low end headroom that an orchestra suggests ... not a simple task !
In case anyone cares to look. With regards to horns and dynamics being an important part of the music. I've just recorded a very loud and dynamic recording of an active system I've designed and put together. Check out the dynamics on this one. There is a case to be made for active driven dynamic speakers. Read the description for an explanation of what I've done with the system:
Perhaps. Does this video make that case? To be honest, I'm not convinced... I hear a boxy sound, with a slightly thin and metallic tone. Perhaps I would change my mind if I heard the system live?
a little harshness over my computer speakers, don't have the means of playing it over my stereo. I see you have something that looks like sub-woofers in the back right? My horns don't go down below 40Hz (if that) and I have no sub-woofers as I do not think they integrate well with horns, but here is my system playing drums too. Do you think I need subs?
Perhaps, I don't know. Dynamics-wise though, there is no passive dynamic speaker that can match this. Also, this is in my office which has glass left right and center so the acoustics are pretty bad.
Also, Yamahas NS-1000M are a long lasting love for me. This system is applicable to all sorts of speakers.
Anyway, apologies @PeterA if I'm derailing the thread in any way. Sticking to the subject of dynamics there is a DEFINITE case to be made for active speaker systems,
Since I'm a drummer, I can tell you off the bat what I hear. Of course the dynamics are great no doubt and the range which is produced by the speakers produces the drum sounds in an (dare I say) accurate and believable way for vintage sounding drums. I do however miss some of the fundamental sound of the drums which you'd only miss once you hear them in your system and then they're gone (meaning the lowest octaves added by the sub usually).
There is certainly a case to be made for not killing the sound with complex analog crossovers.
Your system sounds good Mark. I don't know about subs. Unless you can really get them integrated seamlessly, the trade offs are not worth it, IMO. I have heard subs work with horns, but they are vintage with big paper drivers and SET amps in a big room.
No worries, Thundersnow. Dynamics are critical. Drums are a good test, but so are string quartets. It is also the little stuff the brings the music alive and frees it from the system, expanding the energy out and around the room. Effortlessness and ease across the board.
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