360s vs 400s

[aluets]

I am new to this forum but have owned Spectral equipment since1996, DMC12, DMA90s,Used as bridged mono's, Then aquired pair of DMA360s.Just recieved my first new piece of Spectral component ( rather than used ) Just got my 30SV Friday and it has "Transformed" my system. So I am thinking of a pair of DMA 400s. BIG $ for just a working guy like me but am wondering if leap in performance would be comparable as going from DMC12 to 30SV. or can I be satisfied without breaking the bank right now. Any advice or opinions would be welcomed from Spectral owners that have made this change

 

[ack]

I think the 400s will transform your system yet again. We have a couple of threads here that you can read, and I did upgrade from the 360S2s - themselves an excellent pair of amps, though not complete. Regarding cost, keep in mind that Spectrals easily compete with just about anything 3X-5X their list price, so they are not priced in the typical high-end pretense sense.

 

[aluets]

Thanks ack. I appreciate the response! I think so too; Just needed to hear it from someone who made the leap. I will place the order w/ Goodwin's on Tuesday and start my Wait. I see you use Shunyata power cords w/ a Magnum Z-Trap & Strip. I will be getting my final delievery of MIT power cords from Joe Abrams on Monday. I use the original MIT Z-Stabilizer w/the original (8) outlet companion power Strip on the front-end and Z-Isolator HD for the amps, combination of AC2,AC1, & Z3 cords. Thanks again and Thanks for helping bring this Forum to the audio community.

 

[ack]

You are welcome. You may want to re-think the MIT power cords - they audibly and measurably sucked the bass out of all amps I've tried them on, including the 400s. We are talking about 1-2dB down with warble tones. I know, not what you wanted to hear but that has also been discussed in the past.

 

[microstrip]

You are welcome. You may want to re-think the MIT power cords - they audibly and measurably sucked the bass out of all amps I've tried them on, including the 400s. We are talking about 1-2dB down with warble tones. I know, not what you wanted to hear but that has also been discussed in the past.

Are you saying that when you used the MIT power cords that you measured a 1-2 dB attenuation in some bass frequencies? Or are you just addressing the subjective perception of the bass frequencies?

 

[ack]

Are you saying that when you used the MIT power cords that you measured a 1-2 dB attenuation in some bass frequencies? Or are you just addressing the subjective perception of the bass frequencies?

As I said, audibly and measurably - could I be more succinct?

 

[microstrip]

As I said, audibly and measurably - could I be more succinct?

No, but I wanted to be sure before asking for details - you are reporting something unique and 1-2 dB is a large difference. What measurements did you carry and in what conditions?

 

[ack]

No, but I wanted to be sure before asking for details - you are reporting something unique and 1-2 dB is a large difference. What measurements did you carry and in what conditions?

Just warble tones, to confirm what I heard to be an obvious difference. Yes, the difference is huge; I've never been an MIT power-cord fan, and this is one of the reasons.

 

[microstrip]

Just warble tones, to confirm what I heard to be an obvious difference. Yes, the difference is huge; I've never been an MIT power-cord fan, and this is one of the reasons.

Yes, but how did you perform measurements with warble tones? What type of measurement instrument was used to check the difference?

 

[ack]

Yes, but how did you perform measurements with warble tones? What type of measurement instrument was used to check the difference?

SPL meter??? Not sure what you are looking for

 

[microstrip]

SPL meter??? Not sure what you are looking for

You are dismissing a power cable supporting your opinion with a measurement. For me it is a fascinating subject, but if the measurement was carried with an hand held SPL meter between cable changes we can think that probably the difference is due to the uncertainty of the measurement.

I have found that Transparent Audio power and even signal cables enhance bass subjective quality in my system, suggesting a louder level, but in terms of measurements there is not the minimal change within the resolution of my measurement equipment or the conditions of the experiment.

 

[ack]

You are dismissing a power cable supporting your opinion with a measurement. For me it is a fascinating subject, but if the measurement was carried with an hand held SPL meter between cable changes we can think that probably the difference is due to the uncertainty of the measurement.

Sorry, but this is sheer nonsense; you obviously don't know how people take proper measurements (e.g. tripods next to the woofer or at the listening seat, et al), and we will leave it at that. BTW, you don't need to bring up Transparent cables up with me - you know by now I consider them total, utter junk. Fine if you don't believe anything of what I wrote... Let's talk soccer - I am rooting for your country's team in today's final; I was watching a video the other day how Cristiano Ronaldo practices for his high jumps, and let's see what he can do today.

 

[microstrip]

Sorry, but this is sheer nonsense; you obviously don't know how people take proper measurements (e.g. tripods next to the woofer or at the listening seat, et al), and we will leave it at that. BTW, you don't need to bring up Transparent cables up with me - you know by now I consider them total, utter junk. Fine if you don't believe anything of what I wrote... Let's talk soccer - I am rooting for your country's team in today's final; I was watching a video the other day how Cristiano Ronaldo practices for his high jumps, and let's see what he can do today.

Well, if I did not believe I would not have asked questions. Unfortunately you are not curious about why you got the results, its causes or its consequences. An acoustic effect as you report must have an electrical cause and as far as I know no one knows how a power cable can equalize frequency response as you report.

BTW IMHO using strong words such as "sheer nonsense" or "junk" does not help debating audio. We all know that in high-end one man's meat is another man's poison.

Thanks for the football support - I am just leaving to see the final with friends.

 

[ack]

The electrical cause you are referring to is probably inadequate impulse-current delivery. And because the Spectrals don't have large power supply storage, the effect is rather more pronounced than perhaps other amplifiers. I get a similar effect with the Shunyata Alpha cords, which are measured (as per the Shunyata web site) as delivering 200A of instantaneous current within 800msec, as opposed to 12 usec for the ones I use (as you can tell, the difference in speed of current delivery is enormous). The MITs must be somewhere in between; and it's not that my cords are "fast", rather it's that some others are just "slower" with perhaps gain in other areas like more noise attenuation.

I just scraped these specs on the Alpha from the Shunyata website:

CURRENT RATINGS
- Max continuous current: 20 Amps (connector dependent)
- Max instantaneous current: >200 Amps (800ms)

BTW, I am one of those who strongly believe in the value of PROPER, honest and relevant measurements to correlate what we hear, and I am glad Shunyata publishes such specs for their products.

 

[marty]

The electrical cause you are referring to is probably inadequate impulse-current delivery. And because the Spectrals don't have large power supply storage, the effect is rather more pronounced than perhaps other amplifiers. I get a similar effect with the Shunyata Alpha cords, which are measured (as per the Shunyata web site) as delivering 200A of instantaneous current within 800msec, as opposed to 12 usec for the ones I use (as you can tell, the difference in speed of current delivery is enormous). The MITs must be somewhere in between; and it's not that my cords are "fast", rather it's that some others are just "slower" with perhaps gain in other areas like more noise attenuation.

I just scraped these specs on the Alpha from the Shunyata website:

CURRENT RATINGS
- Max continuous current: 20 Amps (connector dependent)
- Max instantaneous current: >200 Amps (800ms)

BTW, I am one of those who strongly believe in the value of PROPER, honest and relevant measurements to correlate what we hear, and I am glad Shunyata publishes such specs for their products.

Hmmm. I'm scratching my head on this one. If the Shunyata Alpha delivers its max current in 800msec, but the other power cord you referenced does it in 0.012 msec, does that mean if you have one piece of gear using the Alpha and another using the 0.012 cable, the current arrives nearly a second later over the Alpha cable? Something ain't right here. (Ideally, electrons travel about 149K miles in 0.8 sec. That's a heck of a long cable run! )

But getting back to the subject of the OP, I fully concur with ack, if you like the 360s, you will love the RMA 400s!

 

[microstrip]

The electrical cause you are referring to is probably inadequate impulse-current delivery. And because the Spectrals don't have large power supply storage, the effect is rather more pronounced than perhaps other amplifiers. I get a similar effect with the Shunyata Alpha cords, which are measured (as per the Shunyata web site) as delivering 200A of instantaneous current within 800msec, as opposed to 12 usec for the ones I use (as you can tell, the difference in speed of current delivery is enormous). The MITs must be somewhere in between; and it's not that my cords are "fast", rather it's that some others are just "slower" with perhaps gain in other areas like more noise attenuation.

I just scraped these specs on the Alpha from the Shunyata website:

CURRENT RATINGS
- Max continuous current: 20 Amps (connector dependent)
- Max instantaneous current: >200 Amps (800ms)

BTW, I am one of those who strongly believe in the value of PROPER, honest and relevant measurements to correlate what we hear, and I am glad Shunyata publishes such specs for their products.

No one has proved that Shunyata measurements correlate with "what we hear". They just show measurable differences between cables with particular sources and loads they modeled to simulate real mains and real power supplies. However very little - almost nothing - is known about the specific technical aspects of their tests. I accept they want to protect their IP. What their tests show is just the bandwidth of cables under transient conditions.

Anyway, power supply can not affect amplifier frequency response in the way you describe.

 

[microstrip]

Hmmm. I'm scratching my head on this one. If the Shunyata Alpha delivers its max current in 800msec, but the other power cord you referenced does it in 0.012 msec, does that mean if you have one piece of gear using the Alpha and another using the 0.012 cable, the current arrives nearly a second later over the Alpha cable? Something ain't right here. (Ideally, electrons travel about 149K miles in 0.8 sec. That's a heck of a long cable run! )

But getting back to the subject of the OP, I fully concur with ack, if you like the 360s, you will love the RMA 400s!

Just to remember that electrons travel very slowly in cables - typically tens of micron per second. It is the electromagnetic wave that propagates at such high speed!

 

[ack]

Hmmm. I'm scratching my head on this one. If the Shunyata Alpha delivers its max current in 800msec, but the other power cord you referenced does it in 0.012 msec, does that mean if you have one piece of gear using the Alpha and another using the 0.012 cable, the current arrives nearly a second later over the Alpha cable? Something ain't right here. (Ideally, electrons travel about 149K miles in 0.8 sec. That's a heck of a long cable run! )

But getting back to the subject of the OP, I fully concur with ack, if you like the 360s, you will love the RMA 400s!

The net effect is that you get less *instantaneous* (not RMS) current delivered at the same amount of time, and that may affect where's needed the most, e.g. the bass and/or perhaps ultimate dynamics and possibly elsewhere, depending where you have placed those cords. For example, if you plug in an Alpha into a source component (which does not demand as much instant current), and the CX in the amps, chances are you won't be negatively impacted. But plug in an MIT or Alpha into one amp and a CX into the other, and then watch what happens. I've done that.

EDIT: We are talking about *impulse-current* delivery here, therefore, audible behavior during *instantaneous* high current demands - like fast heavy transients (e.g. bass drums).

 

[ack]

@aluets - here's the comparison thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?13732-DMA-400-vs-DMA-360-S2 I was talking about; in it is where I also first discuss the MIT power cords.

 

[rx7audio]

I am new to this forum but have owned Spectral equipment since1996, DMC12, DMA90s,Used as bridged mono's, Then aquired pair of DMA360s.Just recieved my first new piece of Spectral component ( rather than used ) Just got my 30SV Friday and it has "Transformed" my system. So I am thinking of a pair of DMA 400s. BIG $ for just a working guy like me but am wondering if leap in performance would be comparable as going from DMC12 to 30SV. or can I be satisfied without breaking the bank right now. Any advice or opinions would be welcomed from Spectral owners that have made this change

aluets,

I, too, own a DMC12 and DMA90 and Spectral-MIT interconnect. (I purchased my system new in the mid-1990's.) From time to time I think about upgrading my DMC12. Can you describe in detail exactly in what ways your switch to a DMC 30SV from your DMC12 "transformed" your system? What speakers are in your system? And what types of music do you listen to? Vinyl or CD? High SPL's, or low? Large listening room, or small? Near-field?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Just read your profile, so I now know your audio system and your music preferences.

rx7audio