A different kind of snake oil?

nirodha

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Aug 11, 2010
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Hi all,
after reading that Kharma cables are in essence Siltech cables.... I was wondering: which cable manufacturers build cables from the scratch (including the strands of metal inside)? Furutech comes to my mind, Siltech... and does it matter?
 

Cellcbern

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Hi all,
after reading that Kharma cables are in essence Siltech cables.... I was wondering: which cable manufacturers build cables from the scratch (including the strands of metal inside)? Furutech comes to my mind, Siltech... and does it matter?
Some companies use off the shelf wire, some have wire made to their specs, and some make their own wire. Why should it matter which? The sound of the final product is all that matters.
 

marmota

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Feb 3, 2016
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That top of the line Kharma cable looks the part, and is made of very expensive materials, including custom connectors. I'd say that having Siltech build the wire to their specs is not snake oil, is a good decision if the final result is better than what Kharma alone could accomplish.

I view the real snake oil in cables as using very cheap, well known "nothing special" parts and charging +10k per cable. For example, making a big buzz about using OCC Silver and Gold and how important for sound they are, yet using a tin soldered 5$ Neutrik connector with a plastic body and brass pins...suddenly the expensive materials don't matter anymore? That's laziness and as such, a flawed product.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong about the Neutrik/Amphenol/cheap and decent connectors, but they belong to less ambitious cables and not to +10000€ State Of The Art exotica.
 

microstrip

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Although they carry the development, many manufacturers order custom types of cables with their own specification from other larger volume cable manufacturers. Concerning their connectors Furutech writes in their site "At Furutech, we use a number of specialist factories to make the various parts for our high-performance power connectors". Most audio cable manufacturers will just show us assembly lines in their factory tours.

Mogami manufactures all their cables - they even give us a factory tour of their facilities showing wire - see
 

microstrip

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Technically any cable costing more than $50 is snake oil. :) There is no technical correlation with expensive cable materials and performance, except for long time behavior - some poor quality materials will degrade with time.

Some audio cable manufacturers have roots in the cabling industry for avionics, medical or research purposes. For those clients they have long lists of technical parameters and customers choose based mostly on these specifications. Unfortunately known technical audio parameters only cover the audio band - although thanks to digital most audiophiles now know about frequencies up to 384 kHz. So our choice is mainly due to either listening, advice or marketing.
 
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microstrip

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(...) To be clear, there's nothing wrong about the Neutrik/Amphenol/cheap and decent connectors, but they belong to less ambitious cables and not to +10000€ State Of The Art exotica.

Not just cheap and decent, cheap and excellent. In fact, technically they are of much better quality and design than many exotica connectors used in SOTA cables.

Two important aspects to analyze connectors should be considered - the RCA plug is technically an extremely imperfect concept and a connector that does not consider the connector where it is being attached is an unreliable design.

BTW, I am as guilty as most audiophiles - I appreciate nice looking exotica connectors! :oops:
 
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marmota

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Not just cheap and decent, cheap and excellent. In fact, technically they are of much better quality and design than many exotica connectors used in SOTA cables.

Two important aspects to analyze connectors should be considered - the RCA plug is technically an extremely imperfect concept and a connector that does not consider the connector where it is being attached is an unreliable design.

BTW, I am as guilty as most audiophiles - I appreciate nice looking exotica connectors! :oops:

Who doesn't like nice looking exotica? ;)

They do have excellent build quality and reliability, that's for sure. But they are far from perfect, why someone would want to bottleneck, for example, the 100% IACS conductivity of copper with the 28% IACS conductivity of brass, plus the even lower conductivity of a tin or 10% silver solder joint? To be clear, conductivity is not everything (if it were, all cables would be silver, and we know that many people doesn't like it), but there are much better ways to do it when asking the price of a new Hyundai for a pair of 2 meters interconnects.

Is like drinking exquisite vinho do Porto in a plastic Mcdonalds cup...it can be done, but the superb wine of your country deserves way better :)
 
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Cellcbern

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Technically any cable costing more than $50 is snake oil. :) There is no technical correlation with expensive cable materials and performance, except for long time behavior - some poor quality materials will degrade with time.

Some audio cable manufacturers have roots in the cabling industry for avionics, medical or research purposes. For those clients they have long lists of technical parameters and customers choose based mostly on these specifications. Unfortunately known technical audio parameters only cover the audio band - although thanks to digital most audiophiles now know about frequencies up to 384 kHz. So our choice is mainly due to either listening, advice or marketing.
Food for thought:






 

marmota

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I view the real snake oil in cables as using very cheap, well known "nothing special" parts and charging +10k per cable. For example, making a big buzz about using OCC Silver and Gold and how important for sound they are, yet using a tin soldered 5$ Neutrik connector with a plastic body and brass pins...suddenly the expensive materials don't matter anymore? That's laziness and as such, a flawed product.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong about the Neutrik/Amphenol/cheap and decent connectors, but they belong to less ambitious cables and not to +10000€ State Of The Art exotica.

Sorry for the over the top hyperbole, but couldn't resist to make this meme. I avoided to put cable images to not directly offend or cheer too much.

virgin-and-chad (2).png
 

microstrip

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Food for thought:







Thanks for proving my point.These generic facts and physics are well known since long. Did you learn anything solid from these articles?

Curiously I have enjoyed XLO cables for a long time - still keep some vintage XLO 3.1 signature (the one with gold ground clips) in my phono cable set. The great sounding top speaker cables were really stiff - they were really hard to connect!

BTW, considering the usaul RLC subject we had a great thread in WBF long ago, where Gary Koh debated DIY cables and explained how to change the relation between RLC in a cable and listening to its effect. Surely an empirical thread, no pseudo audio science at all!
 

Folsom

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It depends how you define snake oil.

They all sound different. Some invest more money, some less. To say one's better than another is still somewhat questionable no matter the markup because "different" isn't better inherently. Also more expensive and exotic (even with lower price margins) does not necessarily equal better. You can try to brain it all you want, it's personal opinion. There's no objective reason why the connector conductivity matters when they are all low resistance.

So my advice is I would stop trying to reason it all out, because you can't. Use what sounds.
 

DaveC

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Well, you can certainly choose to do business with cable companies that tell you exactly what's in the cable, like ZenWave. ;)

As far as the wire, there aren't that many companies in the world that make wire from scratch. Neotech supplies likely hundreds of companies including Siltech, Wireworld and ZenWave. That does NOT mean our cables are the same. I have some products that are made exclusively for ZenWave, and other companies have their own designs manufactured by Neotech to their specifications as well. Some of these are top-end cost-no-object cables or wire that costs ridiculous amounts of money, but they also make normal cable at normal prices too. IMO, it makes sense to understand what you're paying for, but in the cable world often this is not the case, with people willing to buy cables they have no clue what's inside and they also don't make sure connectors are genuine and the cable is properly designed.

Above and beyond buying a cheap cable for top dollar there are other aspects of cable buying I think you should consider:

1. Connectors: There are tons of fake or look-alike connectors being sold with top-end cables including stuff posted right here on WBF. Nobody seems to care. marmota talks about using cheap Neutrik on 5-figure cables. Well, at least the manufacturer isn't hiding what they are using or selling you fakes! I honestly don't get why so many cable companies get a pass on this?

2. Air or Fabric Dielectrics: Your cable will corrode. No, this is NOT ok and whether it's silver or copper it's simply BAD DESIGN and POOR ENGINEERING. Full Stop. You are buying garbage. We just had a cable thread where it was stated that the cable in question uses an air dielectric and NOBODY bats an eye! Why would you possibly want to buy a a cable that's going to corrode over time? This is also either dishonest or the designer is a complete idiot. OTOH, I agree that air is a better dielectric and sounds better, but it won't work out long-term. The only way to do this properly is to use an INERT GAS dielectric, but this is difficult so you get 5-figure cable makers that are too lazy to protect your investment by using an inert gas because air is easy. It's everywhere! But yeah, it's only a lowlife that thinks it's ok to sell cables that will certainly degrade over time.

3. Durability: So many ribbon or foil cables that can't be bent without putting too much stress on the cable, and so many cables that use heavy-gauge solid-core wire... If you put a ribbon side by side and terminate it into an RCA or XLR connector you can't bend it without the cable quickly failing due to massive amounts of stress placed on the terminations and insulation. Solid-core wire is NOT intended to be bent repeatedly, it is intended for PERMANENT installation. In the recent past, right here on WBF people are hawking power cables made with heavy-gauge solid-core wire. The same person recently hawking air dielectric cables. These are horrible designs. With a power cable you'll get an increase in resistance each time the power cable is bent and eventually you'll get too much resistance, which will cause heat. This is how toaster ovens work, and is to be avoided at all costs in power cables for what should be obvious reasons.

Anyways, I need to get back to work, but this is a subject that really bothers me. I totally understand you want to get good value for your money when buying anything but complaints about not getting high end connectors, etc. with your $10k cables when other companies are selling you blatant fakes, cables that are unsuitable to act as cables because they can't be bent without damaging them, and cables that make no effort to prevent them from corrosion are all much more important factors that seem to always be ignored. You complain that the same companies make wire for multiple companies, which is the way almost every industry works, but are ok with buying cables that are made out of "secret" wires?

I can only help this will assist some with seeing the larger issues involved with cables. I hope this will encourage you to only buy cables from companies that are transparent about what you're really getting for your money. There is so much misinformation and I think the real issues that plague the cable industry are left unaddressed and ignored.
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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So my advice is I would stop trying to reason it all out, because you can't. Use what sounds.


This is the worst advice ever and the reason things are what they are in the cable business.

I wish more consumers were educated and took the time to research what they are buying. IMO, we'd all be much better off and the companies selling poorly designed gear would not even exist.
 

microstrip

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Who doesn't like nice looking exotica? ;)

They do have excellent build quality and reliability, that's for sure. But they are far from perfect, why someone would want to bottleneck, for example, the 100% IACS conductivity of copper with the 28% IACS conductivity of brass, plus the even lower conductivity of a tin or 10% silver solder joint? To be clear, conductivity is not everything (if it were, all cables would be silver, and we know that many people doesn't like it), but there are much better ways to do it when asking the price of a new Hyundai for a pair of 2 meters interconnects.

Is like drinking exquisite vinho do Porto in a plastic Mcdonalds cup...it can be done, but the superb wine of your country deserves way better :)

Discussing cable performance based on a 1914 standard, bottlenecks and Mcdonalds? Sorry no ... :(
 
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microstrip

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This is the worst advice ever and the reason things are what they are in the cable business.

I wish more consumers were educated and took the time to research what they are buying. IMO, we'd all be much better off and the companies selling poorly designed gear would not even exist.

Dave,
Other than listening, how do we research cables?
 

marmota

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2016
260
247
175
Well, you can certainly choose to do business with cable companies that tell you exactly what's in the cable, like ZenWave. ;)

As far as the wire, there aren't that many companies in the world that make wire from scratch. Neotech supplies likely hundreds of companies including Siltech, Wireworld and ZenWave. That does NOT mean our cables are the same. I have some products that are made exclusively for ZenWave, and other companies have their own designs manufactured by Neotech to their specifications as well. Some of these are top-end cost-no-object cables or wire that costs ridiculous amounts of money, but they also make normal cable at normal prices too. IMO, it makes sense to understand what you're paying for, but in the cable world often this is not the case, with people willing to buy cables they have no clue what's inside and they also don't make sure connectors are genuine and the cable is properly designed.

Above and beyond buying a cheap cable for top dollar there are other aspects of cable buying I think you should consider:

1. Connectors: There are tons of fake or look-alike connectors being sold with top-end cables including stuff posted right here on WBF. Nobody seems to care. marmota talks about using cheap Neutrik on 5-figure cables. Well, at least the manufacturer isn't hiding what they are using or selling you fakes! I honestly don't get why so many cable companies get a pass on this?

2. Air or Fabric Dielectrics: Your cable will corrode. No, this is NOT ok and whether it's silver or copper it's simply BAD DESIGN and POOR ENGINEERING. Full Stop. You are buying garbage. We just had a cable thread where it was stated that the cable in question uses an air dielectric and NOBODY bats an eye! Why would you possibly want to buy a a cable that's going to corrode over time? This is also either dishonest or the designer is a complete idiot. OTOH, I agree that air is a better dielectric and sounds better, but it won't work out long-term. The only way to do this properly is to use an INERT GAS dielectric, but this is difficult so you get 5-figure cable makers that are too lazy to protect your investment by using an inert gas because air is easy. It's everywhere! But yeah, it's only a lowlife that thinks it's ok to sell cables that will certainly degrade over time.

3. Durability: So many ribbon or foil cables that can't be bent without putting too much stress on the cable, and so many cables that use heavy-gauge solid-core wire... If you put a ribbon side by side and terminate it into an RCA or XLR connector you can't bend it without the cable quickly failing due to massive amounts of stress placed on the terminations and insulation. Solid-core wire is NOT intended to be bent repeatedly, it is intended for PERMANENT installation. In the recent past, right here on WBF people are hawking power cables made with heavy-gauge solid-core wire. The same person recently hawking air dielectric cables. These are horrible designs. With a power cable you'll get an increase in resistance each time the power cable is bent and eventually you'll get too much resistance, which will cause heat. This is how toaster ovens work, and is to be avoided at all costs in power cables for what should be obvious reasons.

Anyways, I need to get back to work, but this is a subject that really bothers me. I totally understand you want to get good value for your money when buying anything but complaints about not getting high end connectors, etc. with your $10k cables when other companies are selling you blatant fakes, cables that are unsuitable to act as cables because they can't be bent without damaging them, and cables that make no effort to prevent them from corrosion are all much more important factors that seem to always be ignored. You complain that the same companies make wire for multiple companies, which is the way almost every industry works, but are ok with buying cables that are made out of "secret" wires?

I can only help this will assist some with seeing the larger issues involved with cables. I hope this will encourage you to only buy cables from companies that are transparent about what you're really getting for your money. There is so much misinformation and I think the real issues that plague the cable industry are left unaddressed and ignored.

This is so true, you mention very serious issues that practically no one cares about. I cringe when seeing 5 figure copper/silver cables with air dielectric...transforming the cable into something with a very limited lifespan, not different from owning a cartridge...but with no mention about it.

Fake connectors are an even bigger issue than low life Neutrik, at least those are original. I expect custom, no holds barred connectors from high 4 figures or 5 figures stuff, I understand that at the prices you sell it would not be possible without a very high price hike, so don't worry about it. I think you are one of the most honest cable makers out there.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Some companies use off the shelf wire, some have wire made to their specs, and some make their own wire. Why should it matter which? The sound of the final product is all that matters.
Cable prices are always under attack. It is frequently argued that speculators simply take off the shelf parts. Assemble them and charge exorbitant markup. Why make your own parts for a niche market?
Sorry. if you want to prove cables are "snake oil" you are going to have to take another approach.
 
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Folsom

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This is the worst advice ever and the reason things are what they are in the cable business.

I wish more consumers were educated and took the time to research what they are buying. IMO, we'd all be much better off and the companies selling poorly designed gear would not even exist.

I don't believe in "protection for consumers" on luxury products. In fact I think it's a statement of living for utility which has nothing to do with music. I still think there is a lot of truly dumb products but I always say if you like it, whatever, go for it.

Also I have no idea why you think that's bad. A hell of a lot of people like the way your cables sound, and your prices are more than reasonable. For anyone that likes them they can't lose. You do auditions, so it seems like you can't be totally opposed to choosing by sound.

If I thought AudioQuest sounded the best in a stereo I'd recommend using it, even though I know it's not the best deal by any stretch of the imagination. (fortunately I don't like any of their stuff in any circumstance I can think of)
 

Ron Resnick

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Unfortunately I don't have the desire to attempt to compare patiently and meticulously the sounds of different cables between every pair of components. This is what I think is required, if one is going to make informed and educated decisions to implement one's subjective sonic preferences or cable philosophy when connecting each pair of components. (This means I do not believe in the view that an entire loom of one brand and model of cable is necessarily the sonically correct way to go. Of course it is the neat and easy way to go.)

I have special respect for a company like Cardas which, I believe, extrudes its own wire and winds its own cable configurations and makes its own cable components.
 
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