A different kind of snake oil?
- Thread starter nirodha
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Read DaveC's post:
A different kind of snake oil?
Hi all, after reading that Kharma cables are in essence Siltech cables.... I was wondering: which cable manufacturers build cables from the scratch (including the strands of metal inside)? Furutech comes to my mind, Siltech... and does it matter?
www.whatsbestforum.com
"1. Connectors: There are tons of fake or look-alike connectors being sold with top-end cables including stuff posted right here on WBF. Nobody seems to care. marmota talks about using cheap Neutrik on 5-figure cables. Well, at least the manufacturer isn't hiding what they are using or selling you fakes! I honestly don't get why so many cable companies get a pass on this?"
I visited an audio buddy yesterday who is auditioning different Zenwave cables in his system. The audition policy is very generous and helpful when trying to decide between these different cables.
I spent six hours there and quite a large portion of the time comparing two different speaker cables and the same interconnect one balanced one single ended.
The two speaker cables were very interesting. I think one is designed for high current amplifiers and one is designed for lower current amplifiers. One was about twice the thickness of the other, and they had different connectors, one being solid and the other being a split connector with a rubber gasket between the two halves. I have similar split spade connectors on my DIY speaker cables and like them very much.
I couldn’t believe the difference in sound between these two sets of speaker cables. Each one has a different set of positive attributes. I don’t know if the differences were the gauge of the wiring or the different connectors or a combination of both.
I think the only way my friend can decide which cable he prefers is by listening and doing direct comparisons which was the reason he had both at home to compare them. Because they are both Zenwave, I am sure David could give a good explanation for the design choices behind each cable.
I liked each cable but for different reasons and commend David for his very helpful and generous audition policy. In this sense I agree with you, Folsom, the the proof is in the listening.
I'd look into the cable's materials and construction. While there are a lot of elements of cable design that are proprietary, it's also possible to provide a pretty decent amount of information without giving every aspect of the design away. And even if you do, I've found that most folks are completely uninterested in their competition's offerings, because of course their own are better.
I state which wire I use in terms of conductor and insulator material, solid vs stranded, and where I source it from. I even go as far as to say a couple of my wires are proprietary, so they are my own, and other wire I use is off the shelf. I have my own wire made where it's not available as a standard item, but if a std item works for the application I see no issue with using it. This is pretty standard across all industries. For example, most component manufacturers often use off the shelf chips and many even use complete assemblies, such as NCore amplifier modules, discreet op-amps, DAC chips, etc. Very few component manufacturers use their own internal parts, and this is expected. Well, it's the same with cables. Very few make their own wire, and those who do, there's no guarantee it's actually better wire. In fact I know of one company who made their own wire and all of their cables break. Another has their own ribbon wire, but it's placed side-by-side and can't handle many bending cycles. This isn't better! I'm not sure why people think small-scale wire manufacturing is better vs something like an OCC casting process which requires a massive investment in equipment and processes the wire in an inert-gas atmosphere. Not many cable companies can do this without being a full-blown, large-scale cable manufacturer like Neotech.
It's the same with connectors. I'm not sure why people view fancy proprietary connectors as better. Do you think any cable co has more resources or is simply better at designing them vs WBT or Furutech? I'd say that's a very slim chance, and that's why Siltech uses Furutech FI-50 NCF plugs. It's an off the shelf part, but good luck building a better plug! Furutech has done tons of research into every aspect of their design, likely with a much larger budget that any smaller cable company. I'd recommend comparing the connectors to pics of plugs on the manufacturer's website, most of the time there are some minor differences so they can avoid being blatant counterfeits, yet they look 99% identical and everyone assumes they are real.
If you just go with the above, you'll quickly identify some very common cables that may not seem like such an amazing deal. For example UPOCC copper cables with fake Furutech XLR plugs for around the $5k mark. The cable has about $50 worth of parts and an hour of time into it, you get it for $5k. IDK, maybe you'll think this isn't such a great deal after all, yet, I've never heard these things mentioned or any criticism. I've found the exact same plugs on Amazon for under $20 each. Real Furutech plugs are closer to $145 each and you can't get any crazy wholesale deals, so there's nearly an order of magnitude difference in actual costs.
Anyways, I apologize to everyone for the rant, it just bothers me when I see my competition selling cables that cost them nearly 10x less money to build vs my own cables, and they are sold for 3x the price.
On the expensive cables, while I understand a $20k Siltech Triple Crown is a lot of money and maybe you feel it's not a good value, IMO the Siltech cable is still an AMAZING cable, they tell you what's in it (lots of UPOCC silver) and use genuine plugs. Further, it's likely to be able to be bent without harming it, it's well made and well designed. This cable certainly has well over $1k in materials in it, then you have labor, packaging, paying employees, overhead, advertising, taxes, etc, etc... and it's a luxury product made on a very small scale. This is why it ends up being so expensive, it's just how it is and I don't see it as a rip-off. It's simply what things cost using the manufacturer > distributor > dealer model when dealing with very small scale luxury products and this is similar throughout many different industries. This is why I got into audio and build all of my own gear. I have luxury tastes, just not the luxury wallet!
I appreciate DaveC's drive to raise quality awareness and value. The reality is that very few of us can judge audio from a technical perspective, and the crowd here is probably a perfectly representative sample. Most cable prices trouble me as much as the next guy, nonetheless.
It is the purpose of cables to transport signals form one component to another. As far as I know they all do that, even zipcord. By definition that means they are not "snake oil. Do they make claims they can't fulfill? Are they a competent design? Do they represent good value? Those are different questions. Products are worth what someone is willing too pay. Beyond minimum standards we still live in a Caveat Emptor. system. It remans on the buyer to assure he gets a competent valuable product.
What differences does it matter if you buy something off the shelf or to specifications?. If someone can make it better/or for less that's a good thing. Even if the seller does not pass the savings on to the consumer. Indeed you may find someone who makes a finished product but wants to capitalize on your brand, rather than take the time required to build their own brand. It happens all the time.
What differences does it matter if you buy something off the shelf or to specifications?. If someone can make it better/or for less that's a good thing. Even if the seller does not pass the savings on to the consumer. Indeed you may find someone who makes a finished product but wants to capitalize on your brand, rather than take the time required to build their own brand. It happens all the time.
Here's an example of look-alike plugs, these are copies of the Furutech CF-601 and CF-602. They cost $12.74 for all 4 plugs. I've seen these and other similar plugs used on cables that cost thousands. I've never heard ANYONE call them out on it. I'm not naming names because it's not worth the hassle, I'd rather just concentrate on what I do... but I also hate to see people mislead, so before you spend 5-figures on a set of brand new cables with look-alike connectors you may want to make sure you're getting what you think you're getting. A $5 plug or a $145 plug...
Here's the real deal, these cost $556 for 2 of each:
Unfortunately, this is VERY common. There are fakes or look-alikes for every high end plug and even cable can be fake. When cable like Furutech DPS-4 goes for $450/m you can be assured it will be counterfeited eventually. Component manufacturers have to be very careful of fake capacitors, resistors, etc. It's a bigger issue than many would believe. Dishonest people buy products from Alibaba and resell them here. Occasionally they are the same, but possibly made on a midnight production run and carried out the back door so the owner foots the bill for everything and the seller has zero into it.
Gregadd is correct, Caveat Emptor is the way it works, but I think with cables many are unaware of what to look out for. It's considered normal for cable companies to be secretive, which is understandable because not much is known about why cables sound different, but OTOH it's certainly allowed for some dubious design, dubious value, dubious ethics to exist. It's not just cable though, I'm sure many remember that Lexicon disc player that was an OPPO dropped into a different chassis with no other mods except a much larger pricetag.
So anyways, my take is honest is good, poor design and "cheaping out" is not. Siltech may be pricey, but they are a good product and they are honest. The Triple Crown could possibly be the best power cable on the market for many people and you get the benefit of a local dealer's service, so for some that's priceless.
Here's the real deal, these cost $556 for 2 of each:
Unfortunately, this is VERY common. There are fakes or look-alikes for every high end plug and even cable can be fake. When cable like Furutech DPS-4 goes for $450/m you can be assured it will be counterfeited eventually. Component manufacturers have to be very careful of fake capacitors, resistors, etc. It's a bigger issue than many would believe. Dishonest people buy products from Alibaba and resell them here. Occasionally they are the same, but possibly made on a midnight production run and carried out the back door so the owner foots the bill for everything and the seller has zero into it.
Gregadd is correct, Caveat Emptor is the way it works, but I think with cables many are unaware of what to look out for. It's considered normal for cable companies to be secretive, which is understandable because not much is known about why cables sound different, but OTOH it's certainly allowed for some dubious design, dubious value, dubious ethics to exist. It's not just cable though, I'm sure many remember that Lexicon disc player that was an OPPO dropped into a different chassis with no other mods except a much larger pricetag.
So anyways, my take is honest is good, poor design and "cheaping out" is not. Siltech may be pricey, but they are a good product and they are honest. The Triple Crown could possibly be the best power cable on the market for many people and you get the benefit of a local dealer's service, so for some that's priceless.
It seems that (intentionally or unintentionally) misguiding information is being given here, in regards with cables oxidation and dielectrics.
here is a study made by ESA (European Space Agency) Technical Directorate, ESTEC, Noordwijk, The Netherlands, in regards with the oxidation on silver platted copper cables insulated with fluorcarbon plastics or aromatic polymide resin; and used in aerospace applications, in both Europe and the United States, and have been examined for evidence of red-plague corrosion.
just a reminder that the Aerospace industry is using the highest of quality assurance standards in production, which among others include very controlled environments and very strict regulations,.
it’s very hard to believe that any Audio Cables manufacturer has the resources or the equipment to apply such high standards and quality in production.
as you will read the Cables in study are those which are used on satellites
it also seems that corrosion/oxidation on exposed silver and copper elements, within our electronic components should be of higher concern
Also what about cartridges’ coils and wires which are totally nude? will their sound degrade due to the exposed wires ?
here is a study made by ESA (European Space Agency) Technical Directorate, ESTEC, Noordwijk, The Netherlands, in regards with the oxidation on silver platted copper cables insulated with fluorcarbon plastics or aromatic polymide resin; and used in aerospace applications, in both Europe and the United States, and have been examined for evidence of red-plague corrosion.
just a reminder that the Aerospace industry is using the highest of quality assurance standards in production, which among others include very controlled environments and very strict regulations,.
it’s very hard to believe that any Audio Cables manufacturer has the resources or the equipment to apply such high standards and quality in production.
as you will read the Cables in study are those which are used on satellites
it also seems that corrosion/oxidation on exposed silver and copper elements, within our electronic components should be of higher concern
Also what about cartridges’ coils and wires which are totally nude? will their sound degrade due to the exposed wires ?
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Interesting, but a bit too complex for me to follow
.AFAIK, it is near impossible for us to avoid some oxidation in our domestic environments but, on the bright side, silver oxide is conductive anyway...
But aren't all of the components in our devices exposed (to varying degrees) to air anyway -- as you note, the cartridges being a case in point?
Interesting, but a bit too complex for me to follow
AFAIK, it is near impossible for us to avoid some oxidation in our domestic environments but, on the bright side, silver oxide is conductive anyway...
But aren't all of the components in our devices exposed (to varying degrees) to air anyway -- as you note, the cartridges being a case in point?
That link details corrosion in INSULATED wire. Might be even worse if the wire wasn't insulated at all! It also details a type of corrosion that happens in aerospace environments called "red plague" and has nothing to do with any audio application.
Also, the corrosion on silver is not primarily silver oxide, it's silver sulfate. In any case, I've actually built cables with fabric/air dielectric and watched the wire corrode over many years. Silver wire first turns black and then the black coating turns into a powder and starts falling off of the wire. This corrosion is likely a combination of silver sulfate, silver sulphate, silver oxide and even silver chloride. This is not a benign phenomenon as those selling you air dielectric cables will claim.
The issue is air IS a better dielectric and cables sound a little better vs a dielectric that is effective in preventing corrosion, except for inert gas. I have tested inert-gas insulated cables and they sound about the same as air, but you have to put the wire in a sealed tube flushed with the gas. Both getting all the air out and inert gas in, as well as sealing the tube is difficult. This is why many cable companies will sell you cables with cotton, silk or "air" dielectric. I would point out that at least one company selling wire with a silk dielectric also impregnates the silk with mineral oil, which coats the wire and prevents corrosion. This was probably done in times before we had plastics.
Also, it is true that the parts in our components are uninsulated, but the wire is always tinned. Tin won't corrode, it's the main component of solder, so when you tin a wire with solder you are also preventing corrosion. Also, when you have a small amount of wire exposed to air near terminations, this can be dealt with in a few ways, you can use a conformal coating, which is like a thin potting compound that's painted on, or you can use a product like Furutech Nano-fluid, which is what I use, or you can simply make sure the wire is tinned, but this may not be sufficient right near where the insulation is stripped from the wire because it's hard to get solder to flow right up to the insulation.
Dave how you have managed to keep the inert gas inside your cables?
because in my industry (another cost-no-object industry with real engineering) it’s impossible, even with high engineered means and certified sealed tanks, we have to add inert gas every three days.
I have heard same things about helium at stealth cables and it’s strange because I can’t keep this gas in my diving bottles for long
p.s. Quoted from an article “...Tin is an electrical conductor. But its volumetric resistivity is significantly higher than that of copper, so you won't see it used for wires, circuit board traces, bus bars, etc. ... tin is one of the main ingredients in electrical solder....”
p.s2 Tin actually is considered as semi conductor in physics
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I know it is “not done“ and asking for trouble to call out the frauds, Dave. Pitty. For me, yes real value and technology matter. I bought several furutech NCF nanoflux power cables and I couldn’t be happier: soundwise and pride of ownership. I think their reputation is well earned.Here's an example of look-alike plugs, these are copies of the Furutech CF-601 and CF-602. They cost $12.74 for all 4 plugs. I've seen these and other similar plugs used on cables that cost thousands. I've never heard ANYONE call them out on it. I'm not naming names because it's not worth the hassle, I'd rather just concentrate on what I do... but I also hate to see people mislead, so before you spend 5-figures on a set of brand new cables with look-alike connectors you may want to make sure you're getting what you think you're getting. A $5 plug or a $145 plug...
Here's the real deal, these cost $556 for 2 of each:
Unfortunately, this is VERY common. There are fakes or look-alikes for every high end plug and even cable can be fake. When cable like Furutech DPS-4 goes for $450/m you can be assured it will be counterfeited eventually. Component manufacturers have to be very careful of fake capacitors, resistors, etc. It's a bigger issue than many would believe. Dishonest people buy products from Alibaba and resell them here. Occasionally they are the same, but possibly made on a midnight production run and carried out the back door so the owner foots the bill for everything and the seller has zero into it.
Gregadd is correct, Caveat Emptor is the way it works, but I think with cables many are unaware of what to look out for. It's considered normal for cable companies to be secretive, which is understandable because not much is known about why cables sound different, but OTOH it's certainly allowed for some dubious design, dubious value, dubious ethics to exist. It's not just cable though, I'm sure many remember that Lexicon disc player that was an OPPO dropped into a different chassis with no other mods except a much larger pricetag.
So anyways, my take is honest is good, poor design and "cheaping out" is not. Siltech may be pricey, but they are a good product and they are honest. The Triple Crown could possibly be the best power cable on the market for many people and you get the benefit of a local dealer's service, so for some that's priceless.
There is no best choice in this hobby. There are many brands of cables and it is our preference that determines what we pick. Preference in stereo is dynamic - we have good examples of it in this forum. Listening to cable that is a good match in our system will always educate us - provided that there are no strong problems we will focus on the positives and consider it the momentary best, enjoying it. Being open minded in this hobby is accepting that we are a major part of our systems and that fortunately most of us are we are much less fine focused than equipment.
There are also other aspects that can condition what we want to listen in our system - distribution, friendships, trust and, in my case, re-sale value and ease of sale in case I want to move to next cables. The nice thing about cables is that trying them is supposed to be a simple, and I want to keep it that way.
BTW, I also respect Cardas, but just because I have experience with their cables and consider them highly. Otherwise I would just smile reading their funny theories concerning some technical aspects of audio cables.
Francisco, I noticed you have transparent audio cables. In light of what you write above, what do you think about resale value and ease of sale in the case of these cables? I found it rather difficult because of the recalibration requirements and need to coordinate with the factory and the dealership to get all that done. It is complicated further because the service does not extend beyond the original owner unless you buy the service for additional cost.
I'd look into the cable's materials and construction. While there are a lot of elements of cable design that are proprietary, it's also possible to provide a pretty decent amount of information without giving every aspect of the design away. And even if you do, I've found that most folks are completely uninterested in their competition's offerings, because of course their own are better.
(...)
I must say I disagree on this aspect. Cables are not jewelry , we risk paying for expensive details that are not relevant for sound. Manufacturers will not release accurate information mostly because it would become a poor marketing decision - they need magic and pseudo science to sell. It would not allow them to create classes in their products.
Just MHO, but I think it is not just the materials, but mostly the way they are processed. And although it involves a lot of technology and engineering, most cable development knowledge is empirical and extremely personal. It is not easy to valuate with confidence such aspect.
As far as I see the terms of recalibration are quite acceptable if the cables do not change country/distributor zone. My only problem when re-tuning is shipping to US and customs - not just for the price but for the long time and hassle. Surely we depend on the distributor good will - do not tell him you are changing because you found something much cheaper and better and than ask him to have them re-tuned for the sale
!
I do not have a great way to keep inert gas inside a tube with a wire in it. It's much more difficult than it seems, I agree. I tried using teflon tube, and a special primer for cyanoacrylate adhesive gel. It's been a while since I looked at the prototype cable but I would bet the wires are corroding. There is a much more toxic adhesive available that would likely work better, but you can't just buy it easily and to be honest, the cost seems like it's just getting to be too much for ZenWave's goal, which is based on offering high end cables for reasonable prices via direct-sale. So, this is currently on the back-burner and I use teflon or enamel if it's a litz wire. I may pick it back up again if I were to make a truly cost-no-object cable, but I'm unsure if such a product would be viable via direct-sale. It may need to be a different brand sold through distributors and dealers...
To be sure, I could offer slightly better sounding cables than I do now if I used "air dielectric", but I am not willing to do so because I believe in only making high-quality, durable products that will last as long as possible. This is for sure a Buddhist view on the subject, but I also find it personally compelling as cheaply made, disposable items including single-use plastics may end up being the downfall of humanity, it may be worse than climate change, we just don't know. What we have discovered though, is plastic is EVERYWHERE. From the tallest mountains to the deepest seas, there is plastic pollution. I want my cables to last a lifetime plus some.
Helium seems like an odd choice for an inert gas, heavier gasses will be much easier to keep contained. However, I have not tried using different inert gasses to see if it has an effect on the sound. Maybe helium sounds better, IDK... hopefully it doesn't have the same effect on an audio system as it does on the human voice!
Tin is not used primarily as a conductor in electronics. It is used to coat stranded wire to prevent corrosion in lower temp applications. Silver is often used in higher temp applications, along with a ptfe based insulation, and tin is most often used with PVC since it's a lower temp wire. Tin is also a primary ingredient in solder, but solder is intended to be used more as a glue vs a conductor. It's best to twist wires together or make sure the wire is making firm contact with the connector it's being soldered to before soldering. Tin is also used to coat the leads of electronic parts like capacitors and resistors. Tinned wire is being used in some audiophile applications, I think it makes a normal stranded wire into something a little more litz-like because the resistance of the tin may prevent as much strand-to-strand conduction, which adds grain and harshness to many stranded wires.
Cables aren't jewelry? Are you sure?
You certainly don't risk paying for expensive, unnecessary details in high end audio, it's a given that you will. Manufacturers put massive amounts of effort into industrial design, and you pay for it. I think most people want nice designs, it shows the creator is proud of their product and cares about their customer. Believe me, I tried to not offer nice designs, at first my cables had no jacket all because it's simply not necessary for a cable to function. This didn't go over that well, even with people that say they don't want to purchase unnecessary bling. They do! At least a little bit...
It's kinda like artificially high MSRPs, no matter what people say they do judge things by cost and they do feel like they are getting a deal if they receive a discount. I have a no sales, no discounts policy, and while some appreciate this, others feel really frustrated and uneasy about it as it's unusual in many cultures. IMO, it's better for everyone because I don't have to think about pricing strategies, plan out sales, promote and advertise such sales, etc. It saves me a massive amount of work and thus allows me to sell my cables for less money. The buyer never has to worry about seeing his cables on Partsconnexion or some other discount audio outlet for 60% off. The market value of my cables is preserved as well, my cables sell very quickly and for much higher % of retail price vs most other cables.
I do agree wrt processing and UPOCC silver is a perfect example of that. It's so much better than regular 4N silver, they hardly sound the same. Other aspects of cable design are indeed hard to judge, there is an overload of information that leaves most prospective customers confused and not knowing who to believe. However, I think it's not too difficult for the manufacturer to divulge the conductor, the insulation used, what connectors are used and some other data so the customer has some idea of what they are actually buying.
Dave I have spoken with many cables manufacturers and cables assemblers the last few months and it was a very interesting experience.
As expected, the most of them presented their product as the best in the world (even the assemblers did so, for their assembled cables with parts from the shelve) . Many, directly, attempted to degrade the competitors by misrepresenting Physics and chemistry or attacking their competitors pricing policy or the dealers’ networks.
Fortunately some, very few though, are keeping a low profile, do not hesitate to speak highly for their competitors; and are leaving their products to speak for themselves. These manufacturers are those who will send demos for free without any obligation or security. One of them offered a very rare unlimited warranty, to replace for free any of his cables, in case they will show any short of oxidation or corrosion; and another didn’t have any problem to reveal the source of his materials that most assemblers are using, Wan Lung Electric Wire & Cable Mfg., Co., Ltd (one of three OCC technology manufacturers around the world, Wan Lung uses this unique material & technology on a full range of audio/video cables and related accessories. Wan Lung has also registered the trademark as “UP-OCC (single crystal)” worldwide.)
he even sent me that extensive catalogue of all different cables designs and materials which Wang Lung can produce (different designs, different geometries, many different silver alloys, different dielectrics including cotton ) and which are claimed by many assemblers as proprietary secret recipes.
i agree with @Kenc who wrote in a thread ...humility is a wonderful trait in both humans and audio cables as well...
As expected, the most of them presented their product as the best in the world (even the assemblers did so, for their assembled cables with parts from the shelve) . Many, directly, attempted to degrade the competitors by misrepresenting Physics and chemistry or attacking their competitors pricing policy or the dealers’ networks.
Fortunately some, very few though, are keeping a low profile, do not hesitate to speak highly for their competitors; and are leaving their products to speak for themselves. These manufacturers are those who will send demos for free without any obligation or security. One of them offered a very rare unlimited warranty, to replace for free any of his cables, in case they will show any short of oxidation or corrosion; and another didn’t have any problem to reveal the source of his materials that most assemblers are using, Wan Lung Electric Wire & Cable Mfg., Co., Ltd (one of three OCC technology manufacturers around the world, Wan Lung uses this unique material & technology on a full range of audio/video cables and related accessories. Wan Lung has also registered the trademark as “UP-OCC (single crystal)” worldwide.)
he even sent me that extensive catalogue of all different cables designs and materials which Wang Lung can produce (different designs, different geometries, many different silver alloys, different dielectrics including cotton ) and which are claimed by many assemblers as proprietary secret recipes.
i agree with @Kenc who wrote in a thread ...humility is a wonderful trait in both humans and audio cables as well...
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