A Superior / Musical Bass: Does it exist? If so, is it free? How do we recognize it? How do we achieve it?

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
1,585
456
405
Salem, OR
I wanted to put this topic out there because it doesn’t seem many are chompin' at the bit to initiate a thread to discuss achieving a musical bass. I lack much understanding about bass when I read the forums and from what I can tell it seems some others do too. Many of us love to talk about fabulous bass and yet it seems if somebody mentions some type of distinction between a typical bass and a superior bass, some get that dear in the headlights look or go silent.

I say musical bass does exist and is a rather radical departure from the typical bass many have been accustomed to. One listen and I think anybody would be convinced it exists, even if their hearing aids were turned off. I would even go so far to say a musical bass draws us into the performance perhaps more than any other sonic characteristic – especially for what it does to the entire presentation and is perhaps the single biggest contributor toward a musical system.

By no means would I say a musical bass is easy to achieve (I think it's one of the most difficult things to achieve) but it is entirely free provided one already has the hardware to sufficiently cover those frequencies. In fact, I would call musical bass one of high-end audio’s best hidden treasures.

Most of us have some rather limited exposure to some varied strategies, methods, options, etc. and some that come to mind include:

  • Speaker and/or subwoofer designs, sufficient power, heft, size, tuning options, etc.
  • Bass driver speed - quick vs not so quick – does speed matter or does it improve with tuning?
  • Single vs multiple vs stacked vs towers, etc.
  • Speaker- subwoofer-to-floor interface i.e couple vs decouple, materials, designs, executions, etc.
  • Minimum system requirements e.g. main speaker siize, main amp power, is a subwoofer needed, etc?
  • Dependencies on caliber of playback system/rooms or is it independent of other parts of the playback vineyard?
  • Cable lengths, single-ended vs xlr, match / not match other cables in the system, cryo-treat, etc.
  • Do cabling differences even audibly impact lower frequencies?
  • Subwoofer placement options
  • Room requirements e.g. designs and acoustics, dimensions, treatments, bass traps, etc?
  • Measurements – what to measure, interpreting findings, etc. Are they meaningful or meaningless?
  • Subwoofer-to-main speaker integrations e.g. high- or low-level inputs, driver alignments, etc.
  • Speaker positioning significance/insignificance, etc.
  • Cost/performance ratios – are there associated costs?
  • Subwoofer placement, tuning abilities, sealed vs open port, driver size, materials, servo-control, down-, front-, side-, rear-firing, etc.
  • Hiring professionals vs DIY
  • Hard and fast rules / guidelines – never vs always
  • Is achieving a reasonable or better bass overly complex or simple, does one ever arrive?
  • Terminology used to describe bass types e.g. slow, woolly, ill-defined, well-defined, deep, taut, quick, pronounced, musical, etc
  • Etc.
To some degree I’m guessing it all matters but that’s a lot of potential strategies / options just from this incomplete list about a single subject. I’m thinking more options are probably related to the bass sector than perhaps any other single part of the playback vineyard. Who might have the expert, first-hand, quality-oriented knowledge and experience in all of these areas and potential combinations thereof?

Though some are clearly more expert than others, I’m still guessing with so many variables and combinations of variables, such bass guru’s don’t really exist. Sure some speak with confidence about many of the strategies and options but to have intimate expert knowledge of most all possible combinations about what works and what doesn’t work seems hard to fathom, but still. I’ll admit that I’m intimidated by much of the tech talk about bass (and other things) but I’ve gone out to a few subwoofer mfg’ers websites and I’m not entirely convinced all of them know exactly what’s going on either.

Does it exist? Is it possible to achieve a superior bass with these and/or other options? Are some options potentially more right than others? If so, does that imply some options are inferior? How does one get there?

Anyway, below are a couple of examples of what I consider a superior / musical bass.

What say you?



BTW, thank goodness I don’t employ an active linestage anymore. Then again, an active linestage inserting certain characteristics into the playback presentation is just one more option or strategy toward a superior bass, right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tim Link

Testy Troll

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2015
76
42
123
One of the main problems is that very few recording engrs have a clue on recording bass instruments.
Either it's too softly recorded or the bass overpowers the microphones giving soft, fuzzy, bloated, distorted, tubby bass.
Or it's recorded clean but too loud in relation to the other instruments.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jeff1225

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
1,585
456
405
Salem, OR
One of the main problems is that very few recording engrs have a clue on recording bass instruments.
Either it's too softly recorded or the bass overpowers the microphones giving soft, fuzzy, bloated, distorted, tubby bass.
Or it's recorded clean but too loud in relation to the other instruments.
Agreed. However, I'm routinely suprised at how many recordings possess a good pronounced bass that I once thought to be lean in the bass. I've gone enough years without a musical bass that I've grown accustomed to many recordings having a seemingly lean presentation. And to play them again after the bass has been dialed in, IMO, it's like night and day for many of those same recordings.

What's done in the recording studio is obviously outside our scope but when our speakers are acoustically tuned to a room's acoustic boundaries (my words), it seems many of these imperfections become a non-issue, especially when the entire presentation is more balanced, warm, rounded out, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, when our bass is not dialed-in, it's rather difficult to discern what was actually done in the studio regarding bass.
 
  • Like
Reactions: treitz3

kernelbob

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2011
102
103
948
The topics listed cover a huge range. My two cents on a few of them...

The bass drivers have to be very fast and without overshoot. I have towers with a WWMTMWW vertical array. The midrange and woofers are magnesium cones with a creamic coating. The cones on the mids are 4" and on the woofers 5". The result is an integrated virtual point source at a listening position of 12 feet or more.

Given that I have dynamic drivers (ribbon on the tweeter), the bass drivers benefit from very high damping factors (amps with low output impedance). My mid/tweeter drivers are handled by a tube amp with no local or global feedback since time smear needs to be avoided there. Cabling makes a huge difference and needs to properly pass the extremely deep bass without bloat or time smear.

Regarding bass, it's imperative that all the drivers integrate as perfectly as possible. What the ear/brain hears as fast, tight, powerful bass is actually a combination of the large low frequency waveforms handled by the woofers integrated with the faster and fastest leading/trailing edge wave forms from the mids and tweeter. This is easy to screw up, but if done correctly results in instruments sounding "real" and with individual characters. This is also how you get a wide and deep soundstage with each precise resolution of each instrument.

As for subwoofers, my speakers were designed with each having a 15" subwoofer placed at the rear of the listening room with phase offset controls to integrate with the front towers. Correctly dialed in, they neutralize room bass peaks/valleys and allow the acoustics of the recording venue to expand into the listening room.

The above is based on my experience and the particular component paths I've taken.
 

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
1,585
456
405
Salem, OR
The topics listed cover a huge range. My two cents on a few of them...

The bass drivers have to be very fast and without overshoot. I have towers with a WWMTMWW vertical array. The midrange and woofers are magnesium cones with a creamic coating. The cones on the mids are 4" and on the woofers 5". The result is an integrated virtual point source at a listening position of 12 feet or more.

Given that I have dynamic drivers (ribbon on the tweeter), the bass drivers benefit from very high damping factors (amps with low output impedance). My mid/tweeter drivers are handled by a tube amp with no local or global feedback since time smear needs to be avoided there. Cabling makes a huge difference and needs to properly pass the extremely deep bass without bloat or time smear.

Regarding bass, it's imperative that all the drivers integrate as perfectly as possible. What the ear/brain hears as fast, tight, powerful bass is actually a combination of the large low frequency waveforms handled by the woofers integrated with the faster and fastest leading/trailing edge wave forms from the mids and tweeter. This is easy to screw up, but if done correctly results in instruments sounding "real" and with individual characters. This is also how you get a wide and deep soundstage with each precise resolution of each instrument.

As for subwoofers, my speakers were designed with each having a 15" subwoofer placed at the rear of the listening room with phase offset controls to integrate with the front towers. Correctly dialed in, they neutralize room bass peaks/valleys and allow the acoustics of the recording venue to expand into the listening room.

The above is based on my experience and the particular component paths I've taken.
Good points. Sounds like you've been in the trenches a bit with bass regions. And I think you've added a few more options to the already lengthy list.

For example. You mention 5" woofers in your towers and there are those who subscribe to multiple or many smaller woofers than fewer larger woofers. I happen to be a big fan of singular drivers -1 driver for woofer preferrably 10-inch driver or larger, 1 for midrange, and 1 for tweeter, but that seems a bit more rare these days. My preference would be to have complete full-range main speakers with no subwoofer if possible as life is already complex enough.

I also hadn't given much thought to bass notes spanning between woofer and mid-range drivers but yes that seems reasonable, especially for lower crossover frequency points. My current crossover is I think 166Hz between woofer and mid-range. My mid-range drivers are ribbons and if blown may not be replaceable. My favorite speakers for bass reproduction had the W/M crossover around 350 Hz which I liked.

An amp's damping factor would seem to contribute as well. In a previous config with presumably my best bass, I had replaced a highly-rated 300wpc Class B amp with a pair of 160wpc Class D monoblock amps with high damping factor. The speakers were 86db efficiency and to my surprise the bass was tighter, deeper, and more well-defined with the Class D amps. IOW, the low efficiency speakers responded rather well to the Class D amps and not just in the bass regions.

Your notes just made the complex subject matter potentially even more complex. :)
 

kernelbob

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2011
102
103
948
One design goal of my speakers was that the drivers should be as fast as possible, and that they integrate as seamlessly as possible. There were several conversations between the speaker designer and the manufacturer on driver specifications. The woofers are nearly as fast as the midrange drivers and use the same magnesium/ceramic technology. They also both user linear neodynium bar magnets surrounding the voice coils and do not have any back plate. So, the cones are freely suspended.

The job of a bass driver is to generate the bulk of the large bass waveform. In my speakers the crossover between the bass and the midrange is ~350 hz. The crossover slopes are steep. The key requirement for the bass driver is that it reproduces the large bulk of the bass signal, but only that signal with no time distortion, smearing, etc.. If I happen to only have the bass amps running when starting up my system, the bass sounds like so much mud. But that's not the point. By themselves, all bass drivers will sound that way. That's because the leading and trailing steeper waveforms are exclusively handled by the midrange and tweeter drivers. The job of the woofers, in my case, is to reproduce the exact waveforms below 350 hz ... exactly, no more no less. If the bass waveforms are exactly accurate, the steeper and steepest midrange and treble edge waveforms will successfully combine with the bass and sound real.

Larger woofers just cannot be as fast or controlled. So, even if the midrange and tweeter drivers deliver the exact leading/trailing edges of the bass, slower, less stiff woofers will blur the soundstage, imaging, instrumental timbre, and even hall acoustics.

In the end it doesn't matter how fast the higher frequency drivers are, if the woofers can't keep up, the system won't successfully integrate the results.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,469
11,366
4,410
i certainly have my own views about bass reproduction. i will admit that up to this point my perspective is not based on any technical knowledge or proof. i'm just an observer and someone who follows my ears and intuition. OTOH those weaknesses have not held me back from a significant commitment to large scale music and pursuit of great musical bass performance.

since the topic is not narrowly defined, i'm just going to list some random thoughts related to the topic.

is it free? no, great superior musical bass is not free.

----i think in a perfect world your ideal bass transducer is part of a full frequency, fully integrated, single design, speaker system. that speaker system needs adjustments in the bass to perfectly match it to the room. the speaker system has to have excess headroom in terms of driver surface and amplifier power. the 'system' is in a room with space to breathe, and with solid room boundaries that compliment the speaker system. the speaker system is phase and time coherent with an ideal wave launch to the MLP.

----when i say headroom in driver surface, i also mean headroom in mid bass driver surface, and ideally no crossover in my mid bass. and then an easy load for an amplifier to allow for the most refined and transparent amplifier choice especially important for the mid bass.

----the room needs to have a power grid that is sufficiently clean, but with plenty of headroom for dynamic swings and instant current without limits. the room needs to have a low ambient noise floor and solid build.

a superior musical bass, does it exist?

----assuming the piper is paid on the items above, then yes superior reproduced bass does exist. magic in the bass is from recordings and source gear. particularly analog sources, turntables and tape decks. digital can get there but everything needs to be just right. this comes down to one's definition of musical, and one's expectations. this is not about torture tracks. or extreme deep bass extension. this is about the system having such technical capability and uncanny coherence that there is a frequent suspension of disbelief on bass realism. that the system gets out of the way of the bass magic in the recording. this is very very difficult to achieve and not common to hear. and, of course, there are degrees and a process of moving one's reference as one pursues the tip top of this question. maybe a life long pursuit.

how do we achieve it?

unanswerable except to ask what are your expectations? and how much do you want to reach those expectations?

have you heard this accomplished? are you all in for that?

i am satisfied that in my 2 channel room that i have achieved superior musical bass fulfilling my expectations. right now i am working on doing the same thing in my separate Home Theater in a completely different way. it won't succeed on the level of my no-holds-bared 2 channel room, but in the context of a more limited room and budget it will get a long way there; using a 9.3.6 Dolby Atmos speaker system, Trinnov dsp surround, and 3 18" Funk Audio subwoofers. this won't really get into musical realism, but it will get it's own experiential performance. i'm in the middle of working through the set-up process now. it will be interesting to see how real it gets.

lastly there is more than one way to skin the cat. horns and SET's can achieve magical bass in a whole separate way compared to big dynamic drivers, different but just as legit. not as extended, maybe a matter of taste. the proof is in the hearing, it can sound very real. possibly, but not certainly, more limited in musical choices that will work. it might capture the bass magic of a cello in a perfect way, but not quite be convincing on the sweep of full orchestral. i don't have the personal experience in this to fully know.
 
Last edited:

Lagonda

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2014
3,422
4,673
1,255
Denmark
i certainly have my own views about bass reproduction. i will admit that up to this point my perspective is not based on any technical knowledge or proof. i'm just an observer and someone who follows my ears and intuition. OTOH those weaknesses have not held me back from a significant commitment to large scale music and pursuit of great musical bass performance.

since the topic is not narrowly defined, i'm just going to list some random thoughts related to the topic.

is it free? no, great superior musical bass is not free.

----i think in a perfect world your ideal bass transducer is part of a full frequency, fully integrated, single design, speaker system. that speaker system needs adjustments in the bass to perfectly match it to the room. the speaker system has to have excess headroom in terms of driver surface and amplifier power. the 'system' is in a room with space to breathe, and with solid room boundaries that compliment the speaker system. the speaker system is phase and time coherent with an ideal wave launch to the MLP.

----when i say headroom in driver surface, i also mean headroom in mid bass driver surface, and ideally no crossover in my mid bass. and then an easy load for an amplifier to allow for the most refined and transparent amplifier choice especially important for the mid bass.

----the room needs to have a power grid that is sufficiently clean, but with plenty of headroom for dynamic swings and instant current without limits. the room needs to have a low ambient noise floor and solid build.

a superior musical bass, does it exist?

----assuming the piper is paid on the items above, then yes superior reproduced bass does exist. magic in the bass is from recordings and source gear. particularly analog sources, turntables and tape decks. digital can get there but everything needs to be just right. this comes down to one's definition of musical, and one's expectations. this is not about torture tracks. or extreme deep bass extension. this is about the system having such technical capability and uncanny coherence that there is a frequent suspension of disbelief on bass realism. that the system gets out of the way of the bass magic in the recording. this is very very difficult to achieve and not common to hear. and, of course, there are degrees and a process of moving one's reference as one pursues the tip top of this question. maybe a life long pursuit.

how do we achieve it?

unanswerable except to ask what are your expectations? and how much do you want to reach those expectations?

have you heard this accomplished? are you all in for that?

i am satisfied that in my 2 channel room that i have achieved superior musical bass fulfilling my expectations. right now i am working on doing the same thing in my separate Home Theater in a completely different way. it won't succeed on the level of my no-holds-bared 2 channel room, but in the context of a more limited room and budget it will get a long way there; using a 9.3.6 Dolby Atmos speaker system, Trinnov dsp surround, and 3 18" Funk Audio subwoofers. this won't really get into musical realism, but it will get it's own experiential performance. i'm in the middle of working through the set-up process now. it will be interesting to see how real it gets.

lastly there is more than one way to skin the cat. horns and SET's can achieve magical bass in a whole separate way compared to big dynamic drivers, different but just as legit. maybe a matter of taste. the proof is in the hearing. nothing technical. possibly, but not certainly, more limited in musical choices that will work. i don't have the personal experience in this to know.
Mike, where is your crossover point between main and sub-towers ? Are you using analog or digital adjustments on trouble spots in the bass range, or have you been able to correct everything with room treatment ? Yes having source equipment capable of delivering the goods is of the utmost importance, you wont know how important until you have heard it done right, then suddenly everything has a whole new meaning :)
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,469
11,366
4,410
Where is your crossover point between main and sub-towers ? Are you using analog or digital adjustments on trouble spots in the bass range, or have you been able to correct everything with room treatment ? Yes having source equipment capable of delivering the goods is of the utmost importance, you wont know how important until you have heard it done right, then suddenly everything has a whole new meaning :)

main passive towers are fixed in FR and curve, the bass towers right now cross over at 37hz, which is where the main tower woofers start to fall off until they are down -3db at 32hz and -6db at 28hz. 4 analog pots for each separate 2 driver/amp combo (total of 4, 2 per side). so 4 amps, 8 15" drivers.

my room adjustments were really (1) adding THX458 Quietrock to the side and rear walls in 2011, and (2) removing bass traps over a 6 year period in three phases, the last one was the sealing the whole ceiling traps which solved a 10db suckout at 30hz. that was late 2015, since then clear sailing. bass nirvana.

recent vinyl upgrades have taken the bass performance through the roof. the CS Port and Saskia. cartridges, arm weights, phono cables, SUT's, active isolation. unreal steps up in bass realism. the system can be sitting there with all this potential, waiting for a recording to be unleashed. who knew?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,469
11,366
4,410
Mike,

Your improvements since I heard your system sound amazing. I would love to hear it again in the near future.
Russ, thank you. i am loving my bass for sure. whenever i even start to think about life changes, or speaker changes, i think about how my room does scale and bass and i change the subject of my thoughts. it's essential.

you would be most welcome any time. :)
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,286
2,958
1,360
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
Russ, thank you. i am loving my bass for sure. whenever i even start to think about life changes, or speaker changes, i think about how my room does scale and bass and i change the subject of my thoughts. it's essential.

you would be most welcome any time. :)
I know speakers with incredible bass ,bass that has speed, scale, transparency and air. It has been my problem with speakers my entire life trying to find a speaker system that does it all, full frequency without compromise. IMHO Oliver has been able to do that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mike Lavigne

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,469
11,366
4,410
I know speakers with incredible bass ,bass that has speed, scale, transparency and air. It has been my problem with speakers my entire life trying to find a speaker system that does it all, full frequency without compromise. IMHO Oliver has been able to do that.
i believe it based on hearing Gobel speakers a few times. very fast and tuneful bass.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
The challenge I hear is an acoustic bass or kettle drum that actually sounds hollow rather than solid. A cello or double bass must have what sounds like a resonant wooden body and the seamless integration of low string texture. Often, bass sounds solid rather than hollow, too fast, too tight and lacks nuance. A lot of systems emphasize bass making the overall presentation not balanced enough. Another challenge is low organ notes with sufficient air.

when talking about the quality of bass in these types of discussions, I find people describe sonic attributes rather than attempting to describe the sound of actual instruments. We know what instrument sound like but it’s difficult to understand what one means by fast tight deep bass. Does it always sound like that on every record? That’s not right And an indication that the system is doing something wrong, in my opinion.

I I’ve been able to improve the bass performance of my system through different power cords and cabling, better source components from cartridge tonearm to turntable and phono stage and speaker set up.

It is a very complex issue and I don’t have the experience or technical knowledge to offer insight to others. I do what I can by being exposed to better references and then lots of work and experimentation in my listening room.

I agree with the comments above that describe bass performance as the most difficult thing to get right. Improvements in this area go a long way toward making one’s system sound more natural and realistic.

There are indeed different levels, but to me it is more important to get the bass to sound natural and balanced then big and extended. But that may be a function of the type of music I like. I’m not convinced that one must spend a lot of money and have a large perfect room, but those certainly don’t hurt.
 
Last edited:

Lagonda

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2014
3,422
4,673
1,255
Denmark
The challenge I hear is an acoustic bass or kettle drum that actually sounds hollow rather than solid. A cello or double bass must have what sounds like a resonant wooden body and the seamless integration of low string texture. Often, bass sounds solid rather than hollow, too fast, too tight and lacks nuance. A lot of systems emphasize bass making the overall presentation not balanced enough. Another challenge is low organ notes with sufficient air.

when talking about the quality of bass in these types of discussions, I find people describe sonic attributes rather than attempting to describe the sound of actual instruments. We know what instrument sound like but it’s difficult to understand what one means by fast tight deep bass. Does it always sound like that on every record? That’s not right And an indication that the system is doing something wrong, in my opinion.

I I’ve been able to improve the bass performance of my system through different power cords and cabling, better source components from cartridge tonearm to turntable and phono stage and speaker set up.

It is a very complex issue and I don’t have the experience or technical knowledge to offer insight to others. I do what I can by being exposed to better references and then lots of work and experimentation in my listening room.

I agree with the comments above that describe bass performance as the most difficult thing to get right. Improvements in this area go a long way toward making one’s system sound more natural and realistic.

There are indeed different levels, but to me it is more important to get the bass to sound natural and balanced then big and extended. But that may be a function of the type of music I like. I’m not convinced that one must spend a lot of money and have a large perfect room, but those certainly don’t hurt.
I often hear rooms where the deeper bass notes drown out the mid bass, a region where much of the energy and rhythm of a lot of music lays. Systems with large speakers in smallish rooms or with large subwoofers added, often end up muddying up the mid-bass. Room treatment and bass adjustability can somewhat alleviate the problem, but a large room gives you possibilities that are of a different scale. Deep bass waves are long, they need room to sound right. When i knocked down a wall and extended my listening room from 6,5 m, to 12 m i came to realize, how much room the deepest bass actually needs. o_O
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,777
6,819
1,400
the Upper Midwest
If we're talking about "A Superior / Musical Bass", I'm curious where people think the bass is. We can parse as fine as we want but I like to keep it simple with lower bass and upper-bass, or if it that is too fine, just bass alone. You can do it in terms of frequency which is a clearer definition though in terms of instruments also works to some degree.

For example, R. Harley lays bass out like this:
16-40Hz - Deep
40-100Hz - Mid
100-250Hz - Upper

That puts almost no orchestral instruments in the deep bass range. Maybe the very very bottom end of a harp or contrabass sarrusophone. String bass (double bass) or bass tuba start above 40Hz - the exception being the piano down to ~27Hz. (electric organs don't count here). Most of the instruments we think of as bass instruments have a portion of their range in the Mid-bass and Upper bass, which tops out one note below middle-C on the piano. Actually the vast majority of orchestral instruments are active in H's so called Upper bass region.

I'll speculate that when we hear bass notes we also experience the relative audible intensity (sound pressure) an instrument is capable of producing. To some extent that may account for deeper bass drowning out mid-bass as mentioned by M. Lagonda above.

Heaven forfend I go all Harman on you, but iyo where is the bass?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,620
4,838
940
i certainly have my own views about bass reproduction...

is it free? no, great superior musical bass is not free.

----i think in a perfect world your ideal bass transducer is part of a full frequency, fully integrated, single design, speaker system.
a superior musical bass, does it exist?

... this comes down to one's definition of musical, and one's expectations. this is not about torture tracks. or extreme deep bass extension. this is about the system having such technical capability and uncanny coherence that there is a frequent suspension of disbelief on bass realism...

how do we achieve it?
... i am satisfied that in my 2 channel room that i have achieved superior musical bass fulfilling my expectations...

... lastly there is more than one way to skin the cat. horns and SET's can achieve magical bass in a whole separate way compared to big dynamic drivers, different but just as legit. not as extended, maybe a matter of taste. the proof is in the hearing, it can sound very real. possibly, but not certainly, more limited in musical choices that will work. it might capture the bass magic of a cello in a perfect way, but not quite be convincing on the sweep of full orchestral. i don't have the personal experience in this to fully know.
With cones and boxes I have heard great subwoofer integration that achieves an impressive linear bass extension that creates a very different sense of space. But that is just the start for great musical bass.

Mike’s final observation is completely on point and resonates exactly with my experience as well. That SET and horn can also do magic in bass. In my recent experience SET and horn with OB bass can do completely integrated, coherent, natural and very realistic bass (from deep bass all the way up to mid bass) that steps out of the merely impressive hifi and shifts across into the very believable and thoroughly engaging musical bass and beyond. It can do great moments of realism in large scale classical work and then turn around and rock completely.

I admire the efforts of the many to get really great bass foundations to their systems. But as those who try probably know it is one thing to get doof doof (that’s easy) but realistic natural musically coherent bass seems to me to be just another thing all together... and free and easy it ain’t... and it’s a critical foundation to achieving a great true full musicality across all genres... for me simple coherence seems to be the key.
 
Last edited:

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
1,585
456
405
Salem, OR
mm
If we're talking about "A Superior / Musical Bass", I'm curious where people think the bass is. We can parse as fine as we want but I like to keep it simple with lower bass and upper-bass, or if it that is too fine, just bass alone. You can do it in terms of frequency which is a clearer definition though in terms of instruments also works to some degree.

For example, R. Harley lays bass out like this:
16-40Hz - Deep
40-100Hz - Mid
100-250Hz - Upper
You mean Robert Harley the sound engineer turned editor-in-chief at TAS? The same Robert Harley who declared in the Mar/Apr 2009 issue of TAS that he believes something catastrophic occurs at the recording mic's diaphragms that prevents much of the music from ever reaching the recording? The same Robert Harley who from 2014 to present day declared the wildest most miraculous things with the MQA format?

I didn't know others were still referencing him. :)

That puts almost no orchestral instruments in the deep bass range. Maybe the very very bottom end of a harp or contrabass sarrusophone. String bass (double bass) or bass tuba start above 40Hz - the exception being the piano down to ~27Hz. (electric organs don't count here). Most of the instruments we think of as bass instruments have a portion of their range in the Mid-bass and Upper bass, which tops out one note below middle-C on the piano. Actually the vast majority of orchestral instruments are active in H's so called Upper bass region.

I'll speculate that when we hear bass notes we also experience the relative audible intensity (sound pressure) an instrument is capable of producing. To some extent that may account for deeper bass drowning out mid-bass as mentioned by M. Lagonda above.

Heaven forfend I go all Harman on you, but iyo where is the bass?
For me, the bass range I'm thinking of is that frequency range which has the potential for being transformed if/when a speaker is acoustically coupled to its associated room up to the frequencies where that coupling ceases or tapers off. So my SWAG for the bass range in question is the lowest Hertz to perhaps somewhere around the 150-200Hz range. Good question and nice potential rabbit hole too. Glad we got that out of the way otherwise we could be here all night. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: izeek

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
1,585
456
405
Salem, OR
BTW, I’m suspecting some of us are talking apples and oranges regarding this so-called superior / musical bass because to the best of my knowledge it's entirely free. Provided of course one already possesses reasonable or better hardware for the frequency range in question and the desire to make it happen. Not to mention having a somewhat reasonable room that includes minimal furnishing e.g. carpet/rug with pad and a few select in-room furnishings.

To the best of my knowledge and given those basic conditions or requirements, a superior / musical bass:

- Cannot be achieved by adding room acoustic treatements.

- Cannot be achieved by building a custom room.

- Cannot be achieved with playback system upgrades or products. (if full-range speakers no subwoofer is required)

- Cannot be achieved with some-to-many consultants / professional services.

- Cannot be achieved with any playback system tweaks or tuning config changes - that is aside from speakers and/or subwoofers.

IOW, if the above is true, not only is a superior / musical bass free it cannot be purchased.

I also suspect any tweak or accessory that no matter how well they might improve the overall presentation incuding the bass regions they cannot and will not transform the bass from the average or typical bass over to the other side of the fence where we find a superior / musical bass. Though if such tweaks or accessories genuinely improved bass reproduction on one side of the fence, chances are very good it will work likewise on the other side of the fence.

I suppose one could pay dearly to acquire a superior / musical bass but assuming the above cannots are true, I'm unsure what one might purchase aside from perhaps consulting fees who in turn may or may not achieve a musical bass as they may not even know such a thing exists. I suppose one could purchase varioius products or even entire replacement systems, and/or build new rooms and perhaps if all the planets were in perfect alignment one just might achieve a superior / musical bass. Otherwise, I'd venture the chances are excellent they'd still be in much the same boat as before the purchases but now with a new bag of issues.

My two cents anyway. And you get what you pay for, right? :)

On second thought. Let's say one could acquire a superior / music bass by any and/or all options in the incomplete list in my OP. Of course we know that's not happening otherwise every exhibiting room at every audio show would be demonstrating a variation of a superior bass and we'd all know how it sounds and most of us would already be there ourselves. But still, even if it were possible (I'm still guessing it's not) to achieve a superior bass by any combination of the many options in the OP, why go that route when one could go the free route with no additives? Less is always more, right?
 
Last edited:

izeek

Member
Mar 30, 2021
16
7
5
69
Maryland
After reading all this it seems superior/musical bass is achievable but also quite subjective though I feel like I understand what you mean.
My insufficient defintion would be bass where you hear all or most of the notes comprising a bass tone instead of a dull expression of that tone that many are familiar with.
I agree kit can make a difference but isn't THE sole definer.
I'd further that what you wish is achievable in some degree in any kit for that kits level and the level of preference or sophistication of the owner.
While I own a modest kit, in really just the past few months have I been able to achieve what "I" would describe as superior/musical bass as I've gradually gone from that familiar boom to quite tight, definitive, muscular, and truly to my ears, musical bass.
Flight of the Cosmic Hippo from Bela Fleck and the Flecktones is so much more sumptuous now and I thought it was already sounding good. The bass player's fingers sliding up and down the strings. The low banjo notes.
Piano sounds amazing now, like hearing the attack of the notes (think Bob James' 3AM), and the timbre of some of the lower registers.
The build-up and ending crescendo of Ravels Bolero by Zubin Mehta and the Los Angeles Philharmonic. Mehta gives it such a lively energy. I can now hear so much more seperation of the instruments.
I made the best of speaker placement, hugely successful, especially with the sub.
I made a gigantic leap in bass quality by repositioning it after seeing someone else's sitting catty-corner. And then moving it forwards and backwards till it fell in place to my taste. Someone mentioned matching speaker planes with the sub. That worked, too.
And by using isolation at every juncture possible(no to cable stands).
The difference here is actually palpable.
And while not exactly free, free, free, most of it was. Some of it as cheap as 26 cents each.
Gotta run what ya brung to paraphrase Dominic Toretto.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing