AlsyVox Caravaggio plus subwoofers @ Taiko Audio

[Taiko Audio]

Having only heard the Tintoretto at @Rhapsody I cannot comment on what to expect moving from that to the Botticelli, maybe Bob can weigh in on that as he has had both in his room. I can however comment on the differences between the Botticelli, Botticelli X and Caravaggio. We used the Focal Maestro Utopia EVO prior to the Botticelli. That does not really compare as the Botticelli, being a full range planar system has an entirely different presentation, and it's just plays in a different class altogether. Why I am mentioning this is because there was one thing which the Focals did "better", which was pin point imaging. This is where the "X" comes in. The "X" brings external crossovers to the equation, it's not just the same crossovers placed in an external cabinet, but the crossover circuit is different (though both are still 1st order) and you get higher quality parts. This brings that pin point imaging quality to the table, increases detail levels, drops the noise floor and increases transparency and clarity to shocking levels without negatively impacting musical performance.
Needless to say these external crossovers are standard on the top of the line Caravaggio.

The biggest difference with moving from the Botticelli X to the Caravaggio is in the midrange/upper registers. Low bass performance is similar, it plays with a tad more authority, extension seems similar, it has a bit more kick and bite in the upper bass, all in line with what you'd expect from a ~15% larger ribbon. However the midrange is a different story. The Caravaggio adds dual 37mm wide ribbons moving it from a 3-way to a 4-way design. That is a very significant step up in performance, I can't help but thinking ribbon surface area matters, a lot, especially in the midrange. Of course the crossover points change from 750-5000 to 500-1500-5000 which may very well play a part in this, though I don't believe that is the mayor actor as I'll outline later what happens if you turn it into a 5 way. But anyway, the midrange impact just becomes visceral / physical with the Caravaggio, adding more realism, 3 dimensionality and, just believability to the performance. Images are spawned into existence with an incredible manifestation power and force I have not heard experienced before. Very impressive.

On to the subwoofers. You have 2 ways to use these. You can turn it into a 5 way system by low passing the subwoofers and high passing the Caravaggio woofers at 70Hz, or you can run the Caravaggio full range and have the subwoofers augment low bass output till 70Hz. Cutting to the chase I did not get much from this. Turning it into a 5-way did appear to very slightly lower distortion but overall the performance did not improve notably over just the Caravaggio panels used stand alone. Using the subwoofers to augment low bass (running it in parallel with the Caravaggio woofers) only resulted in just too much low bass for my room. Although fun to play around with it for a while, it does produce some incredible room shaking output, it increases room noise too much with rattling walls furniture and gear. That just moves way to much air for my "humble" 66 m2 (710 ft2) space. The text on the Alsyvox website reads: "Also a separate dedicated subwoofer panel (one each channel) is available and it is recommended only in very big rooms from 80sqm", they're not kidding, I would recommend to not even consider these unless you do have that very large room. As we have a new 112m2 room under construction right now I will follow up on this later on. Right now I cannot even imagine what the Michelangelo with 4 of these beasts would be useful for, but if you have a huge open room and need insane bass output, there appears to be something out there for you. I will just add to this story I've owned a lot of active subwoofers in my life, the last ones being a pair of Rel Gibraltars, those did not move even close to the amount of air of just the Botticellis, let alone be even close to comparable in bass quality, detail or transparency.

 

[Rhapsody]

Having only heard the Tintoretto at @Rhapsody I cannot comment on what to expect moving from that to the Botticelli, maybe Bob can weigh in on that as he has had both in his room. I can however comment on the differences between the Botticelli, Botticelli X and Caravaggio. We used the Focal Maestro Utopia EVO prior to the Botticelli. That does not really compare as the Botticelli, being a full range planar system has an entirely different presentation, and it's just plays in a different class altogether. Why I am mentioning this is because there was one thing which the Focals did "better", which was pin point imaging. This is where the "X" comes in. The "X" brings external crossovers to the equation, it's not just the same crossovers placed in an external cabinet, but the crossover circuit is different (though both are still 1st order) and you get higher quality parts. This brings that pin point imaging quality to the table, increases detail levels, drops the noise floor and increases transparency and clarity to shocking levels without negatively impacting musical performance.
Needless to say these external crossovers are standard on the top of the line Caravaggio.

The biggest difference with moving from the Botticelli X to the Caravaggio is in the midrange/upper registers. Low bass performance is similar, it plays with a tad more authority, extension seems similar, it has a bit more kick and bite in the upper bass, all in line with what you'd expect from a ~15% larger ribbon. However the midrange is a different story. The Caravaggio adds dual 37mm wide ribbons moving it from a 3-way to a 4-way design. That is a very significant step up in performance, I can't help but thinking ribbon surface area matters, a lot, especially in the midrange. Of course the crossover points change from 750-5000 to 500-1500-5000 which may very well play a part in this, though I don't believe that is the mayor actor as I'll outline later what happens if you turn it into a 5 way. But anyway, the midrange impact just becomes visceral / physical with the Caravaggio, adding more realism, 3 dimensionality and, just believability to the performance. Images are spawned into existence with an incredible manifestation power and force I have not heard experienced before. Very impressive.

On to the subwoofers. You have 2 ways to use these. You can turn it into a 5 way system by low passing the subwoofers and high passing the Caravaggio woofers at 70Hz, or you can run the Caravaggio full range and have the subwoofers augment low bass output till 70Hz. Cutting to the chase I did not get much from this. Turning it into a 5-way did appear to very slightly lower distortion but overall the performance did not improve notably over just the Caravaggio panels used stand alone. Using the subwoofers to augment low bass (running it in parallel with the Caravaggio woofers) only resulted in just too much low bass for my room. Although fun to play around with it for a while, it does produce some incredible room shaking output, it increases room noise too much with rattling walls furniture and gear. That just moves way to much air for my "humble" 66 m2 (710 ft2) space. The text on the Alsyvox website reads: "Also a separate dedicated subwoofer panel (one each channel) is available and it is recommended only in very big rooms from 80sqm", they're not kidding, I would recommend to not even consider these unless you do have that very large room. As we have a new 112m2 room under construction right now I will follow up on this later on. Right now I cannot even imagine what the Michelangelo with 4 of these beasts would be useful for, but if you have a huge open room and need insane bass output, there appears to be something out there for you. I will just add to this story I've owned a lot of active subwoofers in my life, the last ones being a pair of Rel Gibraltars, those did not move even close to the amount of air of just the Botticellis, let alone be even close to comparable in bass quality, detail or transparency.

Going from Tintoretto to Tintoretto X (X is with external Xovers), then to Botticelli and then to Botticelli X, which I have experienced is interesting. I could have lived with the Tintoretto as I loved the sonics. BUT adding the external Xovers was BIG step up.

I remember doing a demo for someone that bought my demo Tintorettos. In literally 5 seconds after I switched to the external Xovers, he said stop, it's like a different experience with the external Xovers inserted. Instantly noticeable.

In my 700 sq. foot space the Botticelli pressurized the room more adequately than the Tintoretto. The midrange was more present. The bass was in another league as the Botticelli were more appropriate for my size space. Stronger, clearer bass but overall a more relaxed sound.

Again, adding the external Xovers to the Botticelli X is not subtle. It gives more of everything. Larger soundstage, better layering, greater palpability, more textured bass notes, more micro resolution and definitely more slam in the lower registers.

Above the Botticelli X then I refer to Emile's experience noted above.

 

[Taiko Audio]

In my 700 sq. foot space the Botticelli pressurized the room more adequately than the Tintoretto. The midrange was more present. The bass was in another league as the Botticelli were more appropriate for my size space. Stronger, clearer bass but overall a more relaxed sound.

That is encouraging for potential subwoofer benefits in our new space.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Again, adding the external Xovers to the Botticelli X is not subtle. It gives more of everything. Larger soundstage, better layering, greater palpability, more textured bass notes, more micro resolution and definitely more slam in the lower registers.

I forgot about the bass performance improvements you get from the external crossovers, just checked my notes from back then and indeed!

 

[Gregadd]

Ribbon Subwoofers?​

I love planars. The promise of ribbons have never been realized in my opinion. What bass they have is good. Trying to mate a /woofer/subwoofer with them has always been difficult. Mostly the lack of coherency. Enter AlsyVox. Claiming a two panel woofer/subwoofer. How do they do it? Part of it is obviously a massive surface area. What else.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ribbon Subwoofers?​

I love planars. The promise of ribbons have never been realized in my opinion. What bass they have is good. Trying to mate a /woofer/subwoofer with them has always been difficult. Mostly the lack of coherency. Enter AlsyVox. Claiming a two panel woofer/subwoofer. How do they do it? Part of it is obviously a massive surface area. What else. View attachment 73408

 

[Gregadd]

Thank You. I did read that on their website. Magneplanar and Soundlab have a similar approach. Neither went so far as to call it a subwoofer.

 

[Rhapsody]

Thank You. I did read that on their website. Magneplanar and Soundlab have a similar approach. Neither went so far as to call it a subwoofer.

Have you heard Alsyvox?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thank You. I did read that on their website. Magneplanar and Soundlab have a similar approach. Neither went so far as to call it a subwoofer.

The big difference is the 20mm excursion capability, that is incomparable to (maybe 10 times as much as?) Magneplanar / Soundlab.

 

[Gregadd]

Intuitively that makes sense. Although moving that distance might cause it to *slow down" compared to the other drivers.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Intuitively that makes sense. Although moving that distance might cause it to *slow down" compared to the other drivers.

From the horse's mouth:

The push-pull arrangement creates a symmetrical and more constant magnetic field which avoids a slow down effect. The neodymium magnets create a much higher magnetic field strength translating into more force, higher acceleration and more control over the diaphragm movement by the amplifier. Combined this creates a technically viable environment for a ribbon based subwoofer to be able to seamlessly blend in with the rest of the system.

 

[Gregadd]

So then in a conventional speaker the the panel ls pushed by a charge and is passively reurned to its static state. I n this speaker it is being pulled back. is that correct.

 

[Taiko Audio]

So then in a conventional speaker the the panel ls pushed by a charge and is passively reurned to its static state. I n this speaker it is being pulled back. is that correct.

Quote:
Not 100% correct but partially: in a conventional speaker when the diaphragm is at its maximum displacement the magnetic field and therefore the force driving it is lower than what it was when the movement started, this means a partial loss of control

 

[Gregadd]

OK and the consequence of that is...?

 

[Taiko Audio]

PK and the consequence of that is...?

Less control means lower dynamics, higher distortion and a slow subwoofer.

 

[Taiko Audio]

A customer send me this link : https://www.pure-low.com/?lang=en

I was unaware of this product, although perhaps unpractically wide at 126x126cm, it is another planar subwoofer offering with some serious lf extension.

 

[LL21]

A customer send me this link : https://www.pure-low.com/?lang=en

I was unaware of this product, although perhaps unpractically wide at 126x126cm, it is another planar subwoofer offering with some serious lf extension.

Fascinating. I have emailed them to find out more. Surprised to see they say it can be placed against a wall or in a corner. Although 1m-1.4m high by 1.4m high...it is only 12cm thick and if it can be against a wall, that is pretty good.

 

[dr k]

As some of you may know, I sold my Botticelli last year to upgrade to the Caravaggio last year. Daniele has told me my Caravaggio is essentially done with final tuning to be completed, if he hasn’t already. He has sent me several photos of the speakers, one including internal photo of the speaker itself. To my knowledge, no one has published such photo. With his permission, I’ve been allowed to post them. Stay tuned.

 

[marty]

A customer send me this link : https://www.pure-low.com/?lang=en

I was unaware of this product, although perhaps unpractically wide at 126x126cm, it is another planar subwoofer offering with some serious lf extension.

A VERY interesting subwoofer. The weight of each speaker is enormous, 231 lbs and 286 lbs respectively for the small and large subs. For their size, that's a wow! And the cost, by my take, about 42K each (for the larger unit), is a double wow! (that's without a crossover or amp to run it). Double up of course for a stereo pair. Oh my.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It does seem like a very interesting design. But I am a bit skeptical that any planar subwoofer can achieve the percussive (and concussive) impact of cones.