Ambience enhancement subwoofer configuration

Duke LeJeune

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Jul 22, 2013
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The idea in this post is unorthodox, and is an adaptation of something I read in a paper written by David Griesinger, inventor of the Lexicon processor, many years ago.

My understanding is that the brain interprets low frequency phase differences at the left and right ear as hall ambience. To effectively present this phase differential to the left and right ears, we'd position the left and right subs approximately to the left and right of the listening area, rather than in the front of the room near the main speakers. If we're using multiple subs, this implies that we'd use an even number of subs, and perhaps spread them around somewhat (for the sake of modal smoothing) but they would be divided into two distinct sets: "Left-hand-ish side of the room" and "right-hand-ish side of the room".

It is also my understanding that low-frequency left/right phase differences are more likely to be present in live recordings, and more likely among classical recordings than other genres. Which implies that the number of recordings which benefit from stereo subwoofers (as opposed to the same number of mono subwoofers in the same locations) is fairly small.

In my experience the benefits of a left/right phase differential (and therefore the accompanying sense of envelopment) can be extended to lesser recordings by placing the left-side sub(s) approximately 90 degrees out-of-phase relative to the right-side sub(s). This phase relationship is called "phase quadrature", as it is one-quarter of a full 360-degree cycle. Thus we are in effect "synthesizing" a low-frequency phase difference at the left and right ears, from the typically-mono-summed low frequency energy on the recording. So we are using information on the recording, but presenting it in an arguably more psychoacoustically beneficial manner. The intention is to make the suspension of disbelief a little bit easier by enhancing the sense of being immersed in a larger acoustic space. (Imo whether or not that "larger acoustic space" perceptually bears an approximate resemblance to the recording venue also depends on what's happening further up the spectrum).

I have not found this phase quadrature technique to noticeably degrade the sense of envelopment in those live recordings which may already have hall ambience encoded as stereo bass, but it theoretically could, in which case dialing out the 90 degrees of phase differential might make sense for those recordings.

Arguably a beneficial side-effect of this phase quadrature technique is increased de-correlation of the low frequency energy, which helps smoothe the in-room frequency response.

I'm only aware of one professional review in which the reviewer tried the stereo + phase-quadrature technique, and that was when Robert E. Greene of The Absolute Sound reviewed my little multi-sub system in 2015. (If you take a look, see in particular the section entitled "The Spatial Effect".) The general idea can of course be implemented more effectively using much larger and more capable subwoofers... Funks and Seaton Submersives and Gensis SuperSubs and suchnot.

Anyway it was suggested to me that I post about this idea in the subwoofer forum, and I couldn't find an older thread it obviously dovetailed into, and didn't want to hijack the ongoing Genesis SuperSub thread.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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The idea in this post is unorthodox, and is an adaptation of something I read in a paper written by David Griesinger, inventor of the Lexicon processor, many years ago.

My understanding is that the brain interprets low frequency phase differences at the left and right ear as hall ambience. To effectively present this phase differential to the left and right ears, we'd position the left and right subs approximately to the left and right of the listening area, rather than in the front of the room near the main speakers. If we're using multiple subs, this implies that we'd use an even number of subs, and perhaps spread them around somewhat (for the sake of modal smoothing) but they would be divided into two distinct sets: "Left-hand-ish side of the room" and "right-hand-ish side of the room".

It is also my understanding that low-frequency left/right phase differences are more likely to be present in live recordings, and more likely among classical recordings than other genres. Which implies that the number of recordings which benefit from stereo subwoofers (as opposed to the same number of mono subwoofers in the same locations) is fairly small.

In my experience the benefits of a left/right phase differential (and therefore the accompanying sense of envelopment) can be extended to lesser recordings by placing the left-side sub(s) approximately 90 degrees out-of-phase relative to the right-side sub(s). This phase relationship is called "phase quadrature", as it is one-quarter of a full 360-degree cycle. Thus we are in effect "synthesizing" a low-frequency phase difference at the left and right ears, from the typically-mono-summed low frequency energy on the recording. So we are using information on the recording, but presenting it in an arguably more psychoacoustically beneficial manner. The intention is to make the suspension of disbelief a little bit easier by enhancing the sense of being immersed in a larger acoustic space. (Imo whether or not that "larger acoustic space" perceptually bears an approximate resemblance to the recording venue also depends on what's happening further up the spectrum).

I have not found this phase quadrature technique to noticeably degrade the sense of envelopment in those live recordings which may already have hall ambience encoded as stereo bass, but it theoretically could, in which case dialing out the 90 degrees of phase differential might make sense for those recordings.

Arguably a beneficial side-effect of this phase quadrature technique is increased de-correlation of the low frequency energy, which helps smoothe the in-room frequency response.

I'm only aware of one professional review in which the reviewer tried the stereo + phase-quadrature technique, and that was when Robert E. Greene of The Absolute Sound reviewed my little multi-sub system in 2015. (If you take a look, see in particular the section entitled "The Spatial Effect".) The general idea can of course be implemented more effectively using much larger and more capable subwoofers... Funks and Seaton Submersives and Gensis SuperSubs and suchnot.

Anyway it was suggested to me that I post about this idea in the subwoofer forum, and I couldn't find an older thread it obviously dovetailed into, and didn't want to hijack the ongoing Genesis SuperSub thread.
Hi Duke,
Using subs for ambience enhancement as you put it, with or without playing phase games isn’t a new concept. People have been doing it for as far back as I can remember successfully without the digital manipulation.

I'll be upfront and admit my absolute disdain for digital bass specially quadrature modulation and don't believe that it has a place in true (there are plenty or poseurs) high end systems. Leaving aside all the issues with tonality and naturalness of digitized bass amplitude modulating adds yet another layer of coloration on it's own. For me this type of sound homogenization is fine for cinema but contradictory to the idea of high end. A passive sub can be a very powerful tool if one understands setup and positioning, you can get the natural ambience and size present on the recording instead of faking it digitally. Yes one can argue that recordings aren't perfect to begin with but, they're different from one another and better ones have a lot of ambience information which ideally one wants to hear. IMO you need that variety and it's almost critical for a natural and realistic reproduction of the event. There's no way to have realism with amplitude quadrature or any other type of digital manipulation with a fixed setting.

david
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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Interesting, and I can see that could work well, but have not tried it myself yet.

I've been subwooferless (very happily!) for a few years now as my mains get down to 20 Hz, but I do have a strong preference for stereo subs if you're going to use subs.
 

Mark Seaton

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May 21, 2010
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I still wonder how much of this search for envelopment was a result of limited and expensive acoustic measurement systems of the time (RTA's don't count here). Anyone who has who has run a sine sweep on a single subwoofer in a room with some significant modal issues has hear the bass subjectively "swim" around the room. As complimentary subwoofer locations are found and the severe dips at the listening location are alleviated, the origin subjectively sounds more stable and even. When we start adding subwoofers at places other than L/R symmetrically and say front and rear, then delays and other aspects make even more subjective difference.

I guess my question is has anyone really observed the "bass in your head" problem Griesinger was seeking to remedy from a system that was measured to have relatively even bass response from either multiple speakers or subwoofers? Any time I've experienced a disconnect between the subwoofers and the presentation of the speakers it was crossover and arrival time related, not inherent to the bass reproduction.
 

sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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In my rig I integrate the subs below the acoustic room cutoff of about 40Hz. I use a stereo pair and through phase and amplitude manipulation get very flat bass down to 20Hz (or below if I wanted it). The sense of space that happens with the subs is crazy. It is very easy to listen with or without subs (just push a button). I have had audiophiles and non-audiophiles listen and nobody wants to listen without the subs playing.
 

Duke LeJeune

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Jul 22, 2013
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Hi Duke,
Using subs for ambience enhancement as you put it, with or without playing phase games isn’t a new concept. People have been doing it for as far back as I can remember successfully without the digital manipulation.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, David! I respect and appreciate your opinions even when we disagree.

Just for the record the amps I use, which have a 0-180 degree phase control, do everything in the analog domain. So what I'm suggesting does not necessarily involve digital.

I'll be upfront and admit my absolute disdain for digital bass specially quadrature modulation and don't believe that it has a place in true (there are plenty or poseurs) high end systems."

The phase quadrature technique seems to make a worthwhile improvement in the three-grand-ballpark subwoofer system market where I compete. Move the decimal point one or two places to the right and that may no longer hold true, but I don't think the psychoacoustic principles change.

My priority is recreating the perception of hearing live music, which imo involves the suspension of disbelief. But that's not necessarily the same thing as reproducing what's on the mastering tape or what the recording engineer heard or recreating the original musical event.

For me this type of sound homogenization is fine for cinema but contradictory to the idea of high end... Yes one can argue that recordings aren't perfect to begin with but, they're different from one another and better ones have a lot of ambience information which ideally one wants to hear. IMO you need that variety and it's almost critical for a natural and realistic reproduction of the event. There's no way to have realism with amplitude quadrature or any other type of digital manipulation with a fixed setting.

My customers who have tried this (analog) phase quadrature technique report greater variation in spatial qualities from one recording to the next, and from one track to the next on the same recording. This has been my observation as well. The net result is GREATER variety, which makes listening more interesting. I have maybe two dozen customers who have tried the phase quadrature technique (most of my customers drive their four subs with a single amp rather than with the two amps which would be required) and thus far all the feedback I've received on it has been positive.

As for whether or not the phase quadrature techinque is consistent with "realism", that's hard for me to really say without having a reference, and I've never heard a recording made in a concert hall that I've been in. But others have. One time at an audio show where we were doing the phase quadrature thing an apparently skeptical Andy Quint (of Stereophile) handed us a thumb drive and said that he'd like to "challenge" my claims. It was a recording made in the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, a hall he knows well. When the piece was over I asked him how we did. He said, "It passed. It's not a gimmick. I could clearly hear the Concertgebouw hall."

So to the best of my knowledge the technique tends to be subjectively beneficial. I have not yet encountered a situation where it was detrimental, but do concede that it can be philosophically objectionable.

I guess my question is has anyone really observed the "bass in your head" problem Griesinger was seeking to remedy from a system that was measured to have relatively even bass response from either multiple speakers or subwoofers?

I have not, and frankly don't know what he was referring to. Aside from headphones, I can't recall ever having the impression of "bass in your head".
 
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sbnx

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Duke, I do remember reading somewhere (Maybe Toole's book. But it seems like it was in a paper) that the sense of envelopment came from the differential in pressure between the left and right ear which is caused by left to right movement of the air. Mostly our stereo moves air forward/backward and not left/right. This is especially true in the bass as below 80Hz everything is pretty much mono-bass.

Do you know the reference that talked about the left/right movement of air??
 
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Mark Seaton

WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
May 21, 2010
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Mark Seaton said:
I guess my question is has anyone really observed the "bass in your head" problem Griesinger was seeking to remedy from a system that was measured to have relatively even bass response from either multiple speakers or subwoofers?
I have not, and frankly don't know what he was referring to. Aside from headphones, I can't recall ever having the impression of "bass in your head".

We know you can't separate frequency/power response from any subwoofer comparison. From this we have no idea if what they are really reacting to, as I imagine it would be a rare case that shifting the phase 90 deg between subs on 2 sides of the room would not have a notable effect on the frequency response. With measurement systems now available for less ~$100 + computer, we can do some sanity checks to see what we are really comparing which decades ago were often only available to those trained on complicated measurement equipment.
 
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ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Thank you for taking the time to reply, David! I respect and appreciate your opinions even when we disagree.

Just for the record the amps I use, which have a 0-180 degree phase control, do everything in the analog domain. So what I'm suggesting does not necessarily involve digital.



The phase quadrature technique seems to make a worthwhile improvement in the three-grand-ballpark subwoofer system market where I compete. Move the decimal point one or two places to the right and that may no longer hold true, but I don't think the psychoacoustic principles change.

My priority is recreating the perception of hearing live music, which imo involves the suspension of disbelief. But that's not necessarily the same thing as reproducing what's on the mastering tape or what the recording engineer heard or recreating the original musical event.



My customers who have tried this (analog) phase quadrature technique report greater variation in spatial qualities from one recording to the next, and from one track to the next on the same recording. This has been my observation as well. The net result is GREATER variety, which makes listening more interesting. I have maybe two dozen customers who have tried the phase quadrature technique (most of my customers drive their four subs with a single amp rather than with the two amps which would be required) and thus far all the feedback I've received on it has been positive.

As for whether or not the phase quadrature techinque is consistent with "realism", that's hard for me to really say without having a reference, and I've never heard a recording made in a concert hall that I've been in. But others have. One time at an audio show where we were doing the phase quadrature thing an apparently skeptical Andy Quint (of Stereophile) handed us a thumb drive and said that he'd like to "challenge" my claims. It was a recording made in the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, a hall he knows well. When the piece was over I asked him how we did. He said, "It passed. It's not a gimmick. I could clearly hear the Concertgebouw hall."

So to the best of my knowledge the technique tends to be subjectively beneficial. I have not yet encountered a situation where it was detrimental, but do concede that it can be philosophically objectionable.



I have not, and frankly don't know what he was referring to. Aside from headphones, I can't recall ever having the impression of "bass in your head".

All my negative comments and experiences are with digital bass not analog nor was I referring to your products Duke. I never heard analog quadrature nor did I know it exists commercially my experience is mostly with computer based digitization or digital crossovers like the type used with JL subs, it's a gimmick. Sony had some type of digital

We're on the same page regarding spacial cues they do enhance the listening experience and are important and subs are the best tool I know for that.

I have no problem with $3k subs nor do I look down on them, price isn't always indicative of performance in audio I often recommend modestly priced components over underperforming high priced ones.

david
 
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Duke LeJeune

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Duke, I do remember reading somewhere (Maybe Toole's book. But it seems like it was in a paper) that the sense of envelopment came from the differential in pressure between the left and right ear which is caused by left to right movement of the air. Mostly our stereo moves air forward/backward and not left/right. This is especially true in the bass as below 80Hz everything is pretty much mono-bass.

Do you know the reference that talked about the left/right movement of air??

I don't know where that reference might be. Can't say that I remember the term "air movement", but do recall reading about "pressure waves" or maybe "pressure differential" of something like that being an ambience characteristic of large venues. I THINK that's what the phase quadrature thing is simulating, but I'm not sure. I'll try to find it.

If you decide to play around with the idea, that 90 degree figure is not carved in stone. You can go beyond 90 degrees, but you may have to dial in some EQ or otherwise adjust your settings because you'll be getting more cancellation.

We know you can't separate frequency/power response from any subwoofer comparison. From this we have no idea if what they are really reacting to, as I imagine it would be a rare case that shifting the phase 90 deg between subs on 2 sides of the room would not have a notable effect on the frequency response.

Agreed, multiple things are happening when we start shifting the phase of subs relative to one another and it MAY WELL BE that the dominant effect is improvement in the in-room frequency response, as THAT is something we would likely perceive. Most of my quote "data" unquote on the subject is anecdotal, coming from verbal descriptions, nor I have tried to isolate the perceived spatial improvement from what's happening in the frequency domain. That might be worth doing, but I don't have the kind of EQ horsepower it would take to get the two different frequency response curves (the one using phase quadrature, the other not) to line up.

I THINK the perceptual effect is related to what sbnx is recalling, so I hope I can find the reference.
 

Folsom

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All my negative comments and experiences are with digital bass not analog nor was I referring to your products Duke. I never heard analog quadrature nor did I know it exists commercially my experience is mostly with computer based digitization or digital crossovers like the type used with JL subs, it's a gimmick. Sony had some type of digital

We're on the same page regarding spacial cues they do enhance the listening experience and are important and subs are the best tool I know for that.

I have no problem with $3k subs nor do I look down on them, price isn't always indicative of performance in audio I often recommend modestly priced components over underperforming high priced ones.

david

I’m not afraid of digital bass below 60hz. But there’s no way you could make me use those JL’s... too many companies just made bad products meant to put out big SPL from small boxes, without the right kind of adjustments on them to even get close to good.

People poorly mix the type of subs and settings. If you want really high SPL then you need more drivers or acoustic gain, not excursion. So many just go for excursion which means sloppy suspension so the tools to naturallize the bass are already way past neutral, and there is no coming back because the control you can exert on subs is limited.

Phase is key but without Q adjustment you can’t win. Those sloppy suspension subs are already at say +15 and they’re only adjustable from +13 to +20, which is a huge problem is the sweet spot is around +5. Those are arbitrary numbers but the example is pretty accurate. Even if the sloppy suspension subs could adjust to +10 on a dial, it would just be an estranged +13 and not get lower.
 

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