Another integrated question for new system

[Ratbastrd]

Hi all,

Long time lurker, that has gleaned so much from this forum. Thanks in advance for all the great information.

I've recently come into some funds, and it is time to upgrade my 2 channel system to something far more serious and enjoyable. First stop is here...

Current system: Extensive digital library (FLAC)/Tidal > SOtM SMS-200 > Peachtree Nova 300 > Acoustic Zen Hollogram II > Paradigm Ref Studio 40's. This system was relatively cheap to build and has been a very enjoyable platform cost/benefit wise.

About me: Love music, don't get enough time to just relax and enjoy, time for a change. Have worked in and around the audio ODM industry, so have had a chance to listen to some amazing systems over the years, and have developed some good relationships that I will lean on once I go to purchase (F&F). I listen to mostly Jazz & Classical at modest volumes w/ periodic need to turn it up to rock out a bit. My listening room is 12'x18', with the system facing the shallow side. Prefer a bit of warmth vs totally neutral sound, but abhor muddy or noisy digital reproduction. My preference would be towards a very quiet, more neutral, fast and clean musical experience with a defined sound stage. Not looking for perfection, but want to achieve 95% w/ an easy listening (no fatigue) experience.

Budget: $20k, Leaning towards a top notch integrated as the core of my system. Will pair DAC, Speakers etc. based on the integrated I choose.

Comments/Questions on integrated's:

So I've spent a bit of time reading about the current generation of Integrated Amps (all in ones). From my reading the Luxman 509x, Accuphase E-380, Gryphon 120/300 seem to resonate. Curious about Devialet though I'm not quite sure I understand the concept, and Hegel seems to be something I should also consider.

1. What if any manf/devices, am I missing from this list?
2. Which of these is likely to be most reliable and present the best possibility for future proofing (thinking 5 year time horizon). Seems some are concerned about Gryphon's long term reliability?
3. Best bang for buck?
4. Given my preferences, and assuming I start with the amp, which system will be easiest to build around in pursuit of the musical experience I want to achieve? Most flexibility?
5. Lastly, given that it is essentially impossible to trial systems in the age of covid, is there a "safe" choice here that I can proceed without trialing, knowing that I can tweak around the Integrated with high probability of success?

Am I missing anything?

Thanks all!

 

[thedudeabides]

Auditioning prior to purchase, with a money back guarantee, is clearly the best option. Music Direct carries the Luxman line and offers a 60 day, money back, audition period. Luxman has a reputation for full bodied sound and their integrateds have received numerous positive reviews. And it's likely that it will satisfy your sonic priorities. Only downside is that it includes a MM / MC phono section. So if you don't do vinyl, that may or may not be a consideration. I own the D06u CDP and am very happy with the musicality of the unit. Good place to start IMHO.

 

[gestalt]

You may want to consider the darTZeel LHC-208 in that budget class. Integrated/DAC/Streamer/Headphones. It's lovely.

 

[GSOphile]

I have had a Gryphon Diablo 300 (no DAC or phono) for a bit over three years. Terrific integrated used to drive Magico's. Rock solid in daily use. Reviews of this amp have been uniformly excellent. Gryphon has a well earned reputation for long product life cycles.

 

[JayR]

I have a system built around a Devialet D200/Rega RP6/AudioPhysic Virgo 25 for the past 5 years. It’s turned out to be an enjoyable one. The Devialet has been reliable and readily configurable. Dead quiet backgrounds, excellent phonostage, and good sound all around. Maybe not the last word in tonality or musicality but still pretty good.

I recently auditioned a NAD M33 at home. It got my toes tapping to the music better than the Devialet. I have ordered one for a new system as I am implementing Bluesound audio distribution.

Where are you located? If in the Pacific Northwet in US, you are welcome to listen to my system and see if you like it. Not a really high end setup but it works for us.

Edit : I would start with the speakers and build a system around it. IMO, YMMV....

 

[VerdantAudio]

I would agree with JayR. Start with speakers unless you intend to keep your Paradigmsor are going to stick with Paradigm as a brand? If you were to choose Paradigm or Vandersteen speakers, you are going to want to choose very different amplification and by extension, the million other brands on the market.

Take your list of brands above. Gryphon, Accuphase and Luxman are neutral to warm and wonderful products to drive more forward speakers like Paradigms or Focal. Devialet is completely different and quite forward and would be amazing with Vandersteen. The prior three would lead to a darker sound with Vandersteen while Devialet and Paradigm might be unpleasantly bright.

Speakers are usually harder to deal with as you are looking for just the right sound profile and aesthetic. They are typically larger and more visually intrusive and have complex requirements in terms power and impednce. Find the speaker you like and the amp will follow.

 

[Ratbastrd]

I would agree with JayR. Start with speakers unless you intend to keep your Paradigmsor are going to stick with Paradigm as a brand? If you were to choose Paradigm or Vandersteen speakers, you are going to want to choose very different amplification and by extension, the million other brands on the market.

Take your list of brands above. Gryphon, Accuphase and Luxman are neutral to warm and wonderful products to drive more forward speakers like Paradigms or Focal. Devialet is completely different and quite forward and would be amazing with Vandersteen. The prior three would lead to a darker sound with Vandersteen while Devialet and Paradigm might be unpleasantly bright.

Speakers are usually harder to deal with as you are looking for just the right sound profile and aesthetic. They are typically larger and more visually intrusive and have complex requirements in terms power and impednce. Find the speaker you like and the amp will follow.

I was afraid this is what i was going to hear...LOL. If you guy's will humor me, I'm curious why I can't achieve the same goal working the other way around? My thinking was to tackle what is my mind the hardest part first, identifying the right amplifier with the right I/O, at the right cost point, sound profile, quality etc. (This is the area where I have least experience, and am most uncomfortable). Then fit the right components/speakers to the system.

I've had my Paradigms for years. Their old, and a bit boxy sounding at times, with a tendency to get hissy/muddy on the very top and bottom ends I've listened to much better speakers along the way (reputation wise), but always fell back to the paradigms, in part because I know them so well. I used to work for a company called Tymphany, who is Chinese ODM for drivers and full production speaker systems (high end stuff). One of (british) engineers tweaked the crossover and "re-tuned" the speakers a bit a few years ago to make them a bit more neutral and revealing, which dramatically improved their performance. Now I know them so well, they are like an old pair of boots that fit really well.

Because I know them so well, my assumption was to use them as my baseline for identifying the right amp.

Having written this though I can see your point.

 

[Ratbastrd]

Another question:

What is the general opinion on Devialet Integrated, specifically the pro line? Its hard to find much out there on them other then owners gushing about how much they love their unit.

 

[JayR]

I have used a Devialet D200 for a while now. The one word I would use to describe it in my system is Clarity. The noise floor is extremely low and music seems to emerge from a black background. Soundstage is wide and deep with appropriate layering. I am using a speaker with SAM profile which augments the bass. It does make an audible difference as I find the bass a bit more tight and defined with SAM engaged. Treble is extended and detailed. Midrange is excellent. I would call it neutral. Phonostage is excellent and easily configurable. Cool remote.

I cannot comment on the Expert Pro as I have not heard one. General comments on the Pro have been that it is better sounding than the Expert pieces. They do have better streaming capabilities. Head over to www.devialetchat.com for all Devialet information.

I have used mine for the last 5/6 years without any issues.

I would consider a used Devialet Expert/pro a really good bargain.

 

[VerdantAudio]

If you pick your amp, you are going to limit the speakers that you can choose from. Same goes for the speaker. You pick your speaker, you are going to limit amps you can choose from. If you are likely to go with Paradigm or another forward speaker, then you are probably pretty safe. If you are going to consider more neutral or potentially warm speakers then you may not be happy with your approach.

Speakers are large and obtrusive in a room. Amplifiers are 18" to 19" wide black or silver boxes that are about 6" to 8" high. True, they have different displays and some can be ugly. But it is not hard to find an aesthetically neutral amp. That can't always be said for speakers.

 

[Ratbastrd]

Quick update. I found a screaming deal on a Mark Levinson 585.5, which I jumped on. I'm actually quite amazed at the significant jump in musicality the new amp provides in my modest existing system. Its very enjoyable even through low end speakers.

Now I need to narrow down the speaker search. I've posted in the speakers forum (for reference Loudspeaker recommendation) Trying to narrow down search to <$10k range (new or used) for a set of floor standing loudspeakers.

Thanks guy's!

 

[defride]

Have a hunt through Roy Gregory's writing. The Audio Beat, Hifi+ & Absolute Sound. He uses and regularly references the 585 in speaker reviews, may offer some pointers

 

[Sallingboe Audio]

FIrst I have not read all the above, so if I repeat something please forgive me.
Considering your preferences in music jazz/classical, volume, sound - warmth/neutral I will say forget any of the ones you initially ask about. I am from Denmark so should probably speak nicely about Gryphon. I have a few times listened to a Gryphon system 10 times your budget, it is nice and pleasant but boring.
Look for a good tube integrated amp like Allnic which I will highly recommend.
As for what to choose first it is a personal choice and I dont believe that one is more important than the other. Speakers are what defines the sound you prefer more than amp though. Also your speaker choice will determine which amps are available. If you look at tube amps which I will highly recommend for you, you may be limited to what speakers you can choose. In your budget though the option available will probably be a good push pull construction which has more W and can drive more speakers. Again for instance the Allnic T-2000 could be a good choice.

 

[bonzo75]

Quick update. I found a screaming deal on a Mark Levinson 585.5, which I jumped on. I'm actually quite amazed at the significant jump in musicality the new amp provides in my modest existing system. Its very enjoyable even through low end speakers.

Now I need to narrow down the speaker search. I've posted in the speakers forum (for reference Loudspeaker recommendation) Trying to narrow down search to <$10k range (new or used) for a set of floor standing loudspeakers.

Thanks guy's!

With Mark Levinson, if you have the space get Henk from Netherlands to make you an apogee duetta for 7k euro. These speakers are modded apogees and there is not much margin so very cost effective unlike in production commercial speakers where retail price will be 10 times more. If the Levinson stays stable at 1 ohm ask Henk to make you an apogee scintilla at 11k euro

Martin Logan hybrids are the other option

Or change amps and go vintage tannoy, modded, at 5k GBP, especially if you have room constraints

 

[Cellcbern]

Quick update. I found a screaming deal on a Mark Levinson 585.5, which I jumped on. I'm actually quite amazed at the significant jump in musicality the new amp provides in my modest existing system. Its very enjoyable even through low end speakers.

Now I need to narrow down the speaker search. I've posted in the speakers forum (for reference Loudspeaker recommendation) Trying to narrow down search to <$10k range (new or used) for a set of floor standing loudspeakers.

Thanks guy's!

Look at Bache Audio's line of speakers.

 

[soundman]

Quick update. I found a screaming deal on a Mark Levinson 585.5, which I jumped on. I'm actually quite amazed at the significant jump in musicality the new amp provides in my modest existing system. Its very enjoyable even through low end speakers.

Now I need to narrow down the speaker search. I've posted in the speakers forum (for reference Loudspeaker recommendation) Trying to narrow down search to <$10k range (new or used) for a set of floor standing loudspeakers.

Thanks guy's!

I am a VERY new member here and coincidently came across your posting from Feb 2021. I say coincidently because I too just received what I consider a great offer from an authorized dealer on the 585.5 which now retails for $19,500 including the phono card. I was offered a price of $13,995 drop shipped directly from them. Ordinarily when I buy new gear I usually split the 40 point margin with a dealer who is glad to do it meaning I pay .80 of the retail. Here he is offering .28 off and the reviews from people I trust like Roy Gregory and others have been uniformly very good; not the very good for the money praise either. Did you ultimately buy this integrated? Instead of dip switches in the back the phono settings can be made from the front.
https://www.stereonet.com/au/reviews/review-mark-levison-n585-5-integrated-amplifier ,
https://hifiplus.com/articles/mark-levinson-audio-systems-585-integrated-amp-and-dac/

Goldmund Telos 590 Nextgen, CH Precision I1, Jeff Rowland Daemon, Gryphon Diablo 120 - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

 

[Ratbastrd]

I am a VERY new member here and coincidently came across your posting from Feb 2021. I say coincidently because I too just received what I consider a great offer from an authorized dealer on the 585.5 which now retails for $19,500 including the phono card. I was offered a price of $13,995 drop shipped directly from them. Ordinarily when I buy new gear I usually split the 40 point margin with a dealer who is glad to do it meaning I pay .80 of the retail. Here he is offering .28 off and the reviews from people I trust like Roy Gregory and others have been uniformly very good; not the very good for the money praise either. Did you ultimately buy this integrated? Instead of dip switches in the back the phono settings can be made from the front.
https://www.stereonet.com/au/reviews/review-mark-levison-n585-5-integrated-amplifier ,
https://hifiplus.com/articles/mark-levinson-audio-systems-585-integrated-amp-and-dac/

Goldmund Telos 590 Nextgen, CH Precision I1, Jeff Rowland Daemon, Gryphon Diablo 120 - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

Yea, I'm essentially done now. I have a ML 585.5, that I'm quite happy with. I paired it with a Antipodes K50, Innous PheonixNet,, and Devore Gibbon X, and Black cat Graceline L3's. It's a very musical system, with what seems to my ear a very wide frequency response. Precise but not glaring. Maybe a bit light on the sound stage compared to bigger more powerful systems. It's a tradeoff I'm happy with. Let us know how this works out for you.

 

[soundman]

I am really happy for you and it turned out to be all that you had hoped for; do you use the phono stage? According to many built in phono stages have shortcomings unless we are speaking about the built in phono on the new Gryphon 333 and even it has dip switches with the ML all the adjustments can be made from the front panel. Is the sound in line with the reviews?

 

[Ratbastrd]

I don't. I've moved completely to a digital library, augmented with HD streaming. My ML obviously has the phono stage, but I've never used it.

The biggest challenges Ive encountered was layering the networking elements to achieve the musicality I was looking for, while not shading the music (too much). It's a delicate balance, and I've learned a lot along the way.

One thing I'm also realizing is that it's easy to get lost in the pursuit, over tweaking with out really stopping to appreciate what I've achieved so far. When I took a more measured and analytical approach, forcing myself to sit with changes for extended periods of time, the changes became more transparent and easier to appreciate.

Hope this helps.

PS, I suspect you have as much amp as you need. The ML, is a top performer. I've listened to my ML is several different high end systems (taking it to friends houses and inserting it in their systems to hear differences) it stands up to pretty much everything I've compared it to. Literally to the point where I'd argue the biggest changes come from the components around it.

 

[soundman]

I suspect you have as much amp as you need. That is quite amazing what you wrote and here is why. There is a dealer in Canada who has the Accuphase E-4000 at THIRTY PERCENT LESS than it is selling for retail in the US Specifically it is 14K here and with the phono card and the currency conversion it is 11K there plus they will pay for the roundtrip air fare to Vancouver. They cannot ship into the US but if a customer physically enters his store and they place the order and ship it to me all is well. Plus no taxes and no duty. Accuphase has a policy that they will not perform any warranty work on pieces that were not purchased in the country where you reside. So I would ship it back to them should an issue arise and it is taken care of. In the course of our conversation I saw that he is a Gryphon dealer and Ron suggested a dealer demo regarding a Diablo 300 because I am seeking a one box solution. So he had one that has been on the floor for 2 years I would get full 3 year warranty and with the phono stage it would be 16K which was breath taking and then I remembered the deal on the ML for 14K new and I asked him about it and here was his reply (keeping in mind it is his job to sell me something) He said, regarding both the E-4000 and the 585.5 you are going to spend $11,000 USD and get 20% improvement. He was saying unless I went for the Gryphon I would be disappointed.

I used to tell my students my last name is Frank so I must be frank with you and they would say, oh Mr. Frank that is so corny! It's true, I'm honest and direct but never in a mean way. I thanked him and told him I appreciated his candor, got off of the phone and remembered your message this morning. "I suspect you have as much amp as you need." I couldn't believe it. Moreover someone else wrote that they had the Technics SU-R1000 they liked a great deal with ML 11 and it shut down when played loudly. I thought it odd because we have had our humble Marantz Reference Integrated PM 11S3 with Martin Logan Expression 13A ESL in a 20x20 room open in the rear for five years and never once did it shut down.

FWIW these below are the reviews of our present integrated; begs the question why am I seeking for a new one? The sound is laid back I like amps that have large transformers, torque if you will. What we have now mediates musicality and grip and I had an intuition that the ML would be what we have now enlarged and I am sure it is but not for another 14K. Still up in the air about the E-4000; did you consider and or audition it when choosing? Thank you again for what you wrote; between it and what the dealer said has really given me pause.

https://www.qualifi.com.au/media_content/media/Marantz PM11s3_AHF_Feb14.pdf



https://www.theabsolutesound.com/ar...tegrated-amplifier-and-sa-11s3-sacdcd-player/



Translated from German: https://www.connect.de/testbericht/marantz-pm11s3-im-test-1462070.html



Translated from German: https://www.i-fidelity.net/testberi...eite-1-marantz-pm-11s3-bie-i-fidelitynet.html



Translated from French: https://www.opus51.fr/le-blog/item/361-marantz-pm11s3-en-écoute



Gene DellaSala is only about measurements; https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/marantz-pm-11s3