Are Bass Horns a MUST HAVE for Great Horn Sound? Any Alternatives if Too Big to Accommodate?

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Are there any alternatives to bass horns for those who cannot accommodate the size? For example, the Avantgarde bass horns and space horns seem larger than many RVs!

Can horn speakers integrate conventional bass drivers via a "hybrid" approach without losing their magic (similar to most martin logan models)?

Can horn speakers integrate subwoofer stacks with their own sub stacks or 3rd party stacks without losing their magic?

Thank you in advance
 

Hear Here

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Are there any alternatives to bass horns for those who cannot accommodate the size? For example, the Avantgarde bass horns and space horns seem larger than many RVs!

Can horn speakers integrate conventional bass drivers via a "hybrid" approach without losing their magic (similar to most martin logan models)?

Can horn speakers integrate subwoofer stacks with their own sub stacks or 3rd party stacks without losing their magic?

Thank you in advance
Yes, of course. You mention Avantgarde but only in respect of their Basshorns that, as you say are vast. Bass horns are inevitable huge, so many / most horn speakers use active subs within their design. For example Avantgarde's Duos use twin 12" drivers within their bass enclosure, but to boost their non horn-loaded sound level (the horns only need a watt or two), AG compensate by making these subs active with built in amp and active crossover. Because these subs are designed to work with the horns, integration if far better than adding third party subs to any existing system, whether this be horns or not. The AG system allows you to adjust the relative volume of the bass compared with the horns, the crossover frequency, etc and in later XD versions can dol low frequency room adjustement if you have a calibrated mic, REW software and you know what you're doing! I don't, so I set the volume and XO to suit my ears. In fact I have a mic on order.

The AG system is rather better than that used by Martin Logan. I had ML Expression 13As for a while and, although the integration between panel and amp is pretty good, there is nowhere near the degree of fine adjustment available compared with the AG Unos and Duos - or indeed the Trios if they are used with their non horn-loaded subs. I hope this helps. I've been using Unos and Duos since 2002. Peter
 
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PeterA

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I don’t know what you mean by large bass horns or the extension you’re looking for. My corner horns have horn loaded bass down to 35 Hz driven by just a few SET watts.

The best subwoofer integration I’ve ever heard was with a large pair of horns and vintage JBL subs driven by SETs.
 

Argonaut

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don’t know what you mean by large bass horns or the extension you’re looking for. My corner horns have horn loaded bass down to 35 Hz driven by just a few SET watts.
Peter, If I may enquire … Have you actually measured that metric in your room ? I ran a dedicated single Vitavox CN-191 mono system for some some time in a second system, and from my own measurements at the time recall 35 Hz without audible compromise to be somewhat unobtainable.
 

PeterA

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Peter, If I may enquire … Have you actually measured that metric in your room ? I ran a dedicated single Vitavox CN-191 mono system for some some time in a second system, and from my own measurements at the time recall 35 Hz without audible compromise to be somewhat unobtainable.

Of course you may inquire. I have not measured them in my room. I was told this is what the specs are without the corner loading. A friend did actually measure my old Magico Mini 2s. They got down to the high 30s. My Magico Q3 is specified as mid 30s and they definitely sounded as though they went lower than the minis. My Vitavox sound like they go lower than the Q3s, so my sense is mid 30s. I have attached below a spec sheet I found.

What do you mean by “somewhat unobtainable”? What results did you get from your measurements?
 

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morricab

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I get just below 40 hz with my Odeon La Bohemes and flat to 30 Hz with my DIY TQWT horn setup. Both are back loaded but the speed and punch I get with them is hard to beat with conventional bass loading and big woofers.
 

morricab

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Of course you may inquire. I have not measured them in my room. I was told this is what the specs are without the corner loading. A friend did actually measure my old Magico Mini 2s. They got down to the high 30s. My Magico Q3 is specified as mid 30s and they definitely sounded as though they went lower than the minis. My Vitavox sound like they go lower than the Q3s, so my sense is mid 30s.

What do you mean by “somewhat unobtainable”? What results did you get from your measurements?
You might be reacting more to the midbass Peter…horns like yours struggle to get much below 40hz but the punch in the midbass is awesome.
 

marslo

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After many years with AG bass sattelites in Duo Omega and short basshorn with DSP in Duo Mezzo XD I wanted to try something different with carbon membrane instead of Beyma paper woofers.
Jugde for yourself if you like the result.
The bass quality depends very much on the recording and the mastering.


 

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bonzo75

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after many years with AG bass sattelites in Duo Omega and short basshorn with DSP in Duo Mezzo XD I wanted to try something different with carbon membrane instead of Beyma paper woofers.
Jugde for yourself if you like the result.
The bass quality depends very much on the recording and the mastering.



hi Marslo, it should be clarified that you are not using bass horns as Caesar is asking for, but REL. nice sound
 

marslo

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hi Marslo, it should be clarified that you are not using bass horns as Caesar is asking for, but REL. nice sound
Sorry if it was not clear.
In my post I tried to answer the 3rd @caesar question.

”Can horn speakers integrate subwoofer stacks with their own sub stacks or 3rd party stacks without losing their magic?”

Imho - yes, they can. To the certain degree.
 
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shakti

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Tom in Vienna is using a quattro Stack of BetonArt Subs for his Trio.


 
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tima

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You might be reacting more to the midbass Peter…horns like yours struggle to get much below 40hz but the punch in the midbass is awesome.

The lowest note on a standard piano is a touch below 3 octaves below middle-C -- an A at 27.5 Hz. The next lowest acoustic instrument is a harp at 32.7Hz. String bass starts at ~41Hz and a tuba is about the same. Granted these are the fundamental. I recognize that articulated intonated bass is a key element of natural sound. No doubt synth can go lower. but there's not much classical or jazz that calls for the subterranean.

Could someone please explain why FLH is such a big deal? If it is 'higher quality' bass, what does that mean? Is it integration with higher frequencies of other horns? What are the problems using large cones -- or are there such problems, or is it good vs mediocre integration?
 

Don Reid

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I don't know how big too big is, but I use a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice designed HT Tuba quarter wave, 25 Hz folded corner horns with my triamplified, fully horn loaded DIY speakers. They are eighteen cubic feet each, but being placed back in the corners they don't seem overwhelming to me. In my DEQX DSP equalized system the output at 25 Hz is identical to the output at the one kHz reference tone with a roll off of about 18 dB/octave below 25 Hz. They are articulate, impactful and accurate transducers. They blend beautifully with Oris 150 horns with AER BD3 drivers and Fostex t900a bullet super tweeters. I feel that only horn loaded bass is best for any horn system. It truly is the icing on the cake.
Listening to an instrument that plays partly in the bass horns and partly in the midrange horn such as a cello going up a scale from low to high I never hear the crossover from one to the other. I have not found this to be possible when using other bass enclosure types such as sealed, ported, transmission line, etc. with horns no matter how large the bass drivers are.
 
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kodomo

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Well, in my own experience bass horns are not a must but that great horn sound is more to the with midbass, from about 100-140hz. I consider "bass" frequencies are below 100hz and there can be many different bass solutions for that, I prefer open baffle bass. It blends vey well with midbass horns, especially if the midbass horns and ob bass are crossed around schroeder frequency fo the room.
 
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when I replaced my custom matrix BD woofer towers, the whole system snapped into focus, so my opinion is that a horn system should be hornloaded in FR
mine are WxDxH= 23,6x27,5x78,7 and contain a 21" 18Sound LW1400 in a one fold frontloaded horn and are lopassed at 65 24db/oct LR minus 3 db is at 23Hz , but in room they have useful output to 15ish
sens is about 100@30 and close to FLH at X/O
pretty small footprint
my son has TUBA HT which is a very potent contender as well and usable much higher up
have heard many DIY horn systems here in Norway, many with huge SLOBS and OB floor to ceiling, but nothing beats the integration and speed with horns IMO
 
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Solypsa

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I recently had the opportunity to chat with Rune Skramstad and Tim Gurney who collaborate. Horn loaded bass to match the WE systems 13audio makes is a challenge as the xo is not so low. Anyway was interesting to see he is able to mix solid state amplification on the bass horn with the tube amplified main horns.

Was written about briefly b Resistor Mag
 
Jan 18, 2012
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It was me who hooked them up,when Tim was on the lookout for some subhorns for his WE clients
Both Rune and Tim was at ETF recently and we set up the main system with JC Morrison and Devon Turnbull
main source was my Studer A80RC with the new NextGen reproboards from Jeff Polan and Charles King and a load of safety masters
 
Jan 18, 2012
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I recently had the opportunity to chat with Rune Skramstad and Tim Gurney who collaborate. Horn loaded bass to match the WE systems 13audio makes is a challenge as the xo is not so low. Anyway was interesting to see he is able to mix solid state amplification on the bass horn with the tube amplified main horns.

Was written about briefly b Resistor Mag
since this spring I´ve been using Powersoft modules 1ch in 3 out to drive my subhorns and FLH.....the 3 chs have separate dsp and I run slightly less delay on upper FLH to create focus up towards CD/4003
FLH is lopassed@550 24db/oct LR and TAD 4003 is hipassed @600 with passive X/O and goes all the way to 20K driven by my all out 300Bs
cannot with my best effort hear transition between the Powersoft and the 300B
saturday I aquired a pair of FW SIT-1s for fun....quite close to 300B but no cigar....until after having mailed with the man NP that it was ok to bypass the dc blocking caps on amp outputs since I had passive filters
that removed a slightly plastic like veil from the electrolytics bypassed by a Clarity polystene cap....suddenly the gap to 300B is much narrower
It´s all about having fun :D
 
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DHT4ME

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BD Designs has several bass bin designs. The Compact Bass fitted with the rare JBL Everest / Summit woofer (E145) is incredible. Insane dynamics, authority and freedom from coloration is exemplary. I have this setup and went with the E145 after being floored by the JBL Everest and Summit. I never thought that I could possibly be impressed with a JBL speaker.
 

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