Are modern pianos too powerful sounding?

Barry2013

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I'm prompted to ask after having heard earlier today on my FM tuner an excerpt from a new release by Ronald Brautigan of Mendelssohn's Second Piano Concerto.
It has been recorded deliberately on a much earlier piano and I was impressed by the balance between the piano and the accompanying instruments. It sounded so integrated and well balanced.
I would be interested in hearing what others think.
 

Al M.

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I'm prompted to ask after having heard earlier today on my FM tuner an excerpt from a new release by Ronald Brautigan of Mendelssohn's Second Piano Concerto.
It has been recorded deliberately on a much earlier piano and I was impressed by the balance between the piano and the accompanying instruments. It sounded so integrated and well balanced.
I would be interested in hearing what others think.

Whenever I go to hear a live piano concerto with a modern grand, the sound is well balanced -- if anything, the orchestra sometimes has the tendency to drown out the piano in loud passages where they play together. The forward balance of the piano on many recordings is a decision by the recording engineers, which is not necessarily reflective of what you hear in the concert hall.

So no, modern pianos are not too powerful sounding.

By the way, in many cases I welcome the decision to bring the piano forward in recordings for the sake of greater musical intelligibility and involvement, as long as it is not driven to an extreme.
 

still-one

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Live it is not always balanced. I was at a live performance in Vienna and was sitting much too close to the Bosendorfer and its power overwhelmed the vocalists and strings.
 

Al M.

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Live it is not always balanced. I was at a live performance in Vienna and was sitting much too close to the Bosendorfer and its power overwhelmed the vocalists and strings.

Sure, it depends on where you sit as well. But I don't think there are many seating positions in a concert hall where a piano can overpower the other performers, other than sitting close up.
 

astrotoy

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We typically try to sit no closer than about the 7th to 12th row center left (to see the keyboard) at a concert with a piano concerto. Mostly we are in large halls. The balance is generally very good. SInce the sound falls off as the square of the distance and the piano is closer than the orchestra, the farther away you are from the stage the less prominent the piano is compared to the orchestra. However, you will generally see the conductor quiet the orchestra when the piano has a solo part in a concerto, since a full orchestra can overpower a piano.

On the other hand, it does depend on the recording and the performer. In John Culshaw's autobiography he tells about a recording session for RCA that Decca did with Arthur Rubinstein in 1959, where Rubinstein wanted the piano louder and louder so every note could be heard above the orchestra. Rubinstein sent his son into one of the playback sessions and he asked whether the piano could be more prominent. They ended up scrapping the session because the piano was too prominent.

Larry
 
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Audiophile Bill

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Barry - the Fazioli is known to be a somewhat controversial modern sound. I personally don’t like them, preferring a vintage Steinway presentation. It might be that you have heard a few Fazioli recordings of late (not sure).
 

bonzo75

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I have heard modern pianos in concert halls and old pianos on recordings. Neither are too powerful. I am lucky not to have heard the old ones in concert halls
 
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HedgeHog

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Coincidentally, I was just watching a couple of recommended YT vids that compared harpsichord, clavichord, vintage piano, and a modern grand piano. Both vids are approx. 8'.

Part 1
Part 2
 

Barry2013

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Barry - the Fazioli is known to be a somewhat controversial modern sound. I personally don’t like them, preferring a vintage Steinway presentation. It might be that you have heard a few Fazioli recordings of late (not sure).

Thanks Bill
The excerpt I referred to in the OP, and the deliberate decision not to use a modern piano, followed a growing sub conscious feeling that the sound of the piano seemed to be too prominent in an increasing number of modern recordings.
It rather crystalised that perception. It's little while since I attended a live concert, but it may be that more care is taken in such settings and that it's the recording engineers who are at fault.
Ronald Brautigan clearly believes there is a problem, which suggests that this is a real issue, so it will be interesting to read other contributions.
 

GSOphile

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Powerful (and well integrated): Stephen Kovacevich's 1994 Brahms Piano Concerto No. 2 playing a Bosendorfer, Sawallisch, London Philharmonic, EMI Classics.
 
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Audiophile Bill

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Thanks Bill
The excerpt I referred to in the OP, and the deliberate decision not to use a modern piano, followed a growing sub conscious feeling that the sound of the piano seemed to be too prominent in an increasing number of modern recordings.
It rather crystalised that perception. It's little while since I attended a live concert, but it may be that more care is taken in such settings and that it's the recording engineers who are at fault.
Ronald Brautigan clearly believes there is a problem, which suggests that this is a real issue, so it will be interesting to read other contributions.

It is true that the Fazioli was designed to be more powerful and dynamic sounding with the ability to fill concert halls more easily. But still this may not answer the criticism unless potentially other brands are trying to compete too.
 

christoph

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It is true that the Fazioli was designed to be more powerful and dynamic sounding with the ability to fill concert halls more easily. But still this may not answer the criticism unless potentially other brands are trying to compete too.
Loudness war also in Classics now? :rolleyes:
 

astrotoy

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There has been a movement (often called HIP - historically informed performances) which use old instruments or modern copies of old instruments for performances which are trying to create the sound qualities and techniques of the performances from the period of the compositions. So a Mozart piano concerto would use an early piano (much smaller and less powerful than today's concert grand), string instruments with gut strings, a lower bridge with less tension on the strings, different bow and bowing technique, valveless brass instruments, lower pitch, etc). Part of the issue is that early pianos didn't have the current full 88 key range, so they can't be used to play a big Rachmaninoff or Tchaikovsky concerto. Typically in these HIP recordings the orchestras are also much smaller.

I've never heard a recording of a piano concerto played on an instrument which predates the concerto. For example, the Brautigam Mendelssohn Piano Concerto referred to by the OP is (according to a review I read) a reproduction of an 1830 Pleyel fortepiano, which would have been similar to the instruments of Mendelssohn's time, not a fortepiano from Mozart's time (which would be smaller and less powerful and have fewer keys).

So rather than choosing an instrument because it was less powerful than a modern instrument, I think most pianists like Brautigam are playing instruments to emulate those of the time (along with orchestras with instruments of the time.)

One final point, there are a fair number of pianists who specialize in playing these earlier instruments, including Brautigam. They have to use a different playing technique than most pianists, and gain a reputation for their expertise in playing the earlier fortepiano. They are not competing with Danill Trifonov or Yuja Wang or Mitsuko Uchida or the myriad of great pianists who play the modern piano. I don't know of any pianists (there are some I would guess) who move back and forth between playing the modern piano and the fortepiano.

Larry
 

Bruce B

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Then you have the recording side where some producers/engineers stick the microphones inside the piano right on top of the sound board, rather than put mics several feel away.

070508_21302.jpg
 
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Barry2013

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The Times today has a review of a new recording by Andras Schiff of Schubert's A Major Piano Sonata on ECM to which it awards 5 stars.
He used a Brodman forte piano c 1820 "blessed with four pedals (not the modern two) and a variety of tones and attack beyond the grasp of the louder more powerful pianos of today."
More fulsome praise in the review but it reminded me of this thread.
 
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jeff1225

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The Times today has a review of a new recording by Andras Schiff of Schubert's A Major Piano Sonata on ECM to which it awards 5 stars.
He used a Brodman forte piano c 1820 "blessed with four pedals (not the modern two) and a variety of tones and attack beyond the grasp of the louder more powerful pianos of today."
More fulsome praise in the review but it reminded me of this thread.

ECM seems to really know how to record and reproduce piano.
 

Audiophile Bill

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The Times today has a review of a new recording by Andras Schiff of Schubert's A Major Piano Sonata on ECM to which it awards 5 stars.
He used a Brodman forte piano c 1820 "blessed with four pedals (not the modern two) and a variety of tones and attack beyond the grasp of the louder more powerful pianos of today."
More fulsome praise in the review but it reminded me of this thread.

What does the 4th pedal do, Barry?
 

Audiophile Bill

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It allows you to change the key action or response to allow you to play softly....

That is normally the 3rd pedal, Bruce.
 

Audiophile Bill

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