Are We the Last Generation?

[Bill Hart]

I'm not saying the world will come to an end when I'm gone. Or that there will be no hi-fi. But, most of us, a lot anyway, are geezers. We came up in a world where almost everybody had a stereo system- not necessarily the best- maybe a changer or plastic-y turntable, receiver and some bookshelf speakers. It was part of being an adult. Some of us went beyond the norm-- perhaps to the level of crazy-- but we came up in a culture that prized that and there was a physical, not just online community, at least in places where I lived.
I think today is different. I'm sure the NYC market is different than it was when it was booming in the '80s. And of course, there is the uber gear, (some of which is blue sky and/or may not be for the casual enthusiast, whatever) but it is a different world now. As most of you know, I'm now in Austin which is a "young" town- the university here is huge and casts a big profile, and there is a ton of tech here of all sorts-- and money. Construction is like gold rush towns. But, even these folks who have money don't necessarily think of hi-fi as important in their lives. (My impression, not a scientific study). The younger generations may earn, but have different priorities- housing, for one, is quite expensive. And I wonder whether we may be the last of a generation who managed over decades to afford to refine our systems, our listening skills, our interest. Some of us have been at this for 1/2 a century.
As you likely know, the "pro" side and studios aren't necessarily the same as hi-fi. They address different needs. There is not much retail hi-fi on the ground here despite the influx of some affluent folks. Obviously, I don't know what's hidden behind the closed doors of a craftsman cottage or run down victorian mansion. Record sales here seem to be good, but that's not all audiophile; I'd guess most of it isn't.
Are we the last generation who grew up with hifi for the pursuit of best sound? And for various reasons, were able to realize that?
Know that I'm of the view that the mass market is based on convenience and cost, and think that has always been so.
And you guys lean toward the hi-end. So, this might resonate, I dunno. I think many of us are of a certain age, too.
I don't mean to be a buzzkill about this-- it's just that I'm thinking about how the world is changing and one of the important things in my life may not be as important to as many as our generation passes on. (BTW, I did leave instructions about the viking funeral, with burning pyre on a ship, horned helmet, and Steppenwolf at high db).

 

[tima]

Are we the last generation who grew up with hifi for the pursuit of best sound? And for various reasons, were able to realize that?

We're the last who grew up before the Internet, and the last who grew up when audio was relevant compared to video. Remember brick and mortar audio dealers tried to stay in business as Home Theater A/V dealers. Video led the turn toward more and more mindless passive input. But ... we will survive.

 

[ddk]

I'm not saying the world will come to an end when I'm gone. Or that there will be no hi-fi. But, most of us, a lot anyway, are geezers. We came up in a world where almost everybody had a stereo system- not necessarily the best- maybe a changer or plastic-y turntable, receiver and some bookshelf speakers. It was part of being an adult. Some of us went beyond the norm-- perhaps to the level of crazy-- but we came up in a culture that prized that and there was a physical, not just online community, at least in places where I lived.
I think today is different. I'm sure the NYC market is different than it was when it was booming in the '80s. And of course, there is the uber gear, (some of which is blue sky and/or may not be for the casual enthusiast, whatever) but it is a different world now. As most of you know, I'm now in Austin which is a "young" town- the university here is huge and casts a big profile, and there is a ton of tech here of all sorts-- and money. Construction is like gold rush towns. But, even these folks who have money don't necessarily think of hi-fi as important in their lives. (My impression, not a scientific study). The younger generations may earn, but have different priorities- housing, for one, is quite expensive. And I wonder whether we may be the last of a generation who managed over decades to afford to refine our systems, our listening skills, our interest. Some of us have been at this for 1/2 a century.
As you likely know, the "pro" side and studios aren't necessarily the same as hi-fi. They address different needs. There is not much retail hi-fi on the ground here despite the influx of some affluent folks. Obviously, I don't know what's hidden behind the closed doors of a craftsman cottage or run down victorian mansion. Record sales here seem to be good, but that's not all audiophile; I'd guess most of it isn't.
Are we the last generation who grew up with hifi for the pursuit of best sound? And for various reasons, were able to realize that?
Know that I'm of the view that the mass market is based on convenience and cost, and think that has always been so.
And you guys lean toward the hi-end. So, this might resonate, I dunno. I think many of us are of a certain age, too.
I don't mean to be a buzzkill about this-- it's just that I'm thinking about how the world is changing and one of the important things in my life may not be as important to as many as our generation passes on. (BTW, I did leave instructions about the viking funeral, with burning pyre on a ship, horned helmet, and Steppenwolf at high db).

I don’t think we were ever the norm. Being audiophiles, gear whores, looney tunes or whatever name we go by is very different from the average person/family with a console or the plastic player you mention, we’re fringe they’re not. In reality nothing’s changed for the masses and their listening habits what’s different is the tech. Higher end console is now Sonos and plastic player is Alexa, Google home, or some type of bluetooth speaker. Phones and tablets have replaced the cassette, 8 track and record players and streaming instead of physical media, the only major change I see is solitary listening, something audiophiles engage. I believe the next generation of highend lovers already exist and they’ll find their own path like we did only their highend will be probably different from ours.

david

 

[Uk Paul]

Good thread Bill, and it is something I think about quite often; more so given the cost of top end products rising exponentially over recent years. We are absolutely a minority in our interest as we all realise, but the most concerning thing looking to the future is the likelihood of AI actually creating a majority of music for people to tune in to based upon their listening preferences, ultimately leading to musicianship becoming a thing of the past, as sad and horrific for humanity as that may sound.

 

[treitz3]

Good thread Bill, and it is something I think about quite often; more so given the cost of top end products rising exponentially over recent years. We are absolutely a minority in our interest as we all realise, but the most concerning thing looking to the future is the likelihood of AI actually creating a majority of music for people to tune in to based upon their listening preferences, ultimately leading to musicianship becoming a thing of the past, as sad and horrific for humanity as that may sound.

Well now, that's a thoroughly depressing thought. One that I hope never comes into fruition.

My "seed" was planted when I was 8 years old....been having fun my entire life with audio. Along my journey, I know I have planted a few seeds....as I am sure many of us have as well. Being in this hobby as long as we have, I am quite sure that many of us have been witness to some of the seeds you planted start to grow and mature. Point being, there may be seeds you planted that you don't even know about yet. Some seeds take years, if not decades to start growing.....but they are still there.

Me thinks that we would be living in our own bubble, if we were think that we are the last of the bunch. David hit the nail on the head, IMO. There will be others, but their music/gear might be drastically different from ours.

Tom

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i think the reality of the USA audiophile is somewhat a baby boomer heavy membership due to how our generation grew up. and subsequent generations are not nearly as active in that same way. lots of alternatives for recreation focus. so to that extent i agree with Bill.

however; there are more different realities in other parts of the world where living density does drive all generations to an audiophile level 2 channel stereo focus, as an attractive hobby, and then there is the headphone culture which includes a high performance segment which dwarfs the world wide audiophile count.

so maybe we are dinosaurs in our own neighborhoods, but we are not the last generation....everywhere.

 

[gadawg58]

I agree that the newer generation will continue to listen to and value music but how they do it will be very different than us I think. My son has a nice set of headphones but has zero and I mean zero interest in any kind of an audio system. I asked him how many of his friends have audio systems and his answer is zero. He’s 22 and in his last year of college but when I was in college I was already working on my second system far upgraded from my high school rig. Don’t get me wrong … he will spend some money when he has it but it goes for high end gaming pc, video capture and streaming equipment. I’m not sure his generation will ever want to appreciate large in room speakers like many of us do … hope I‘m totally wrong and out in left field! Cheers!

 

[Bill Hart]

Cleeds, over on the 'Gon (not sure if he posts here) grabbed some old consumer data from the mid-70s that showed after the purchase of a bed, the second priority was the purchase of a stereo.
I do think the hobby will survive- I'm not a pessimist- just realizing that the era and culture a lot of us came up in is so different from today. I know the legacy press has been bleating about this for years- how do we attract younger hobbyists, address "mobile" computer gear, etc.
I do think people will always make music. The AI thing is fascinating but I don't think it will ever replace human involvement in the creative and performance arts.
I guess my point was, we came up at a unique time--the post-war boom, the technology and the "youth explosion" in music. Record sales went from Perry Como to The Doors in a few short years. I was told that the major label execs were caught flat-footed after Monterrey Pop Festival--suddenly, they realized the market was us!
In some ways, I find young people to be less siloed about genre or artists than we might have been-- it's like a giant blender-genre agnostic.
But the big systems- like many of you run--are a tiny portion of the market (as David rightly points out). And of course, there are so many other forms of home entertainment, gaming, etc. per Tima.
I do think we occupied a unique time period for these reasons and more.

 

[Bill Hart]

i think the reality of the USA audiophile is somewhat a baby boomer heavy membership due to how our generation grew up. and subsequent generations are not nearly as active in that same way. lots of alternatives for recreation focus. so to that extent i agree with Bill.

however; there are more different realities in other parts of the world where living density does drive all generations to an audiophile level 2 channel stereo focus, as an attractive hobby, and then there is the headphone culture which includes a high performance segment which dwarfs the world wide audiophile count.

so maybe we are dinosaurs in our own neighborhoods, but we are not the last generation....everywhere.

Interesting point about the scene outside of the States. I know David has a fair amount of contact with Far East. Also on my bucket list--a trip to the East. I have a dear friend, perhaps my oldest at this point- in HK--so there are several reasons to make the trip. I'm also fascinated by the Japanese quest for perfection-- whatever that is called in Japanese.

 

[Lee]

Music remains very popular among younger men. And so is hi-fi. Look at the young folks at the Warsaw show in Fremer’s latest video.

 

[DSkip]

Threads like this always intrigue me because I feel the huge disconnect between generations in this industry. Most don't just 'arrive' at the high end - it is a journey. You have to discover the hobby and then you have to develop financial freedom to pursue it. It takes time to get in the deep end.

Today, it is easier to keep your ignorance of the depth of hifi because there aren't as many brick and mortars to peruse. You have to search for them and almost stumble into it if you don't know someone already in hifi. I'm 37 now and even when I was in my teens, we had many mainstream stores to shop at: Best Buy, Circuit City, Tweeter, Fry's, Modia Home Theater... While these weren't dedicated high end shops, they satisfied a need and generated deeper interest beyond what brands they carried. A variety of stores planted seeds that there was more than just what Best Buy carried and research was needed. As you know, three of those five are no longer around. 2008 changed the industry and did create a barrier for entry-level consumers since now we basically just have Best Buy. Our culture as a whole is homogenizing as you see the same stores and restaurants in each city you travel in.

Regarding financial freedom, one only needs to compare the purchasing power of a dollar then vs. now to see why that is a barrier. A 'small' night out with the wife tends to run us about $250 for a few hours. This includes dinner, an activity, and paying a sitter. Daycare for young families also eats up massive income, running about $200 per week. Diapers are now $30 a box. You can obviously go on but I think all here understand that aspect.

With these barriers, there are still those of us in my generation that are planting strong roots and carrying the torch forward. Young dealers tend to attract young clients and as our numbers increase, so will our client base. There are young dealers who play at high levels, such as myself at AudioThesis, Aaron Sherrick at Now Listen Here, and Nathan Vander Stoep at NVS Sound. Youtube has many young stars such as ZeroFidelity, Jay's Iyagi, and Andrew Robinson. There are paradigm shifts in the industry as we reshape the model to fit these younger buyers, but don't be fooled into thinking there isn't interest budding. It just looks vastly different than it did in years past.

Also keep in mind that it is easy to forget how far you've come as an audiophile. My reference system now retails for around $240,000. That is a level far above what my average client can afford, but I think it fits into an average system investment at WBF. My generation is rarely investing that kind of money because we don't have it. Give us another 20-30 years though....

 

[Bill Hart]

Threads like this always intrigue me because I feel the huge disconnect between generations in this industry. Most don't just 'arrive' at the high end - it is a journey. You have to discover the hobby and then you have to develop financial freedom to pursue it. It takes time to get in the deep end.

Today, it is easier to keep your ignorance of the depth of hifi because there aren't as many brick and mortars to peruse. You have to search for them and almost stumble into it if you don't know someone already in hifi. I'm 37 now and even when I was in my teens, we had many mainstream stores to shop at: Best Buy, Circuit City, Tweeter, Fry's, Modia Home Theater... While these weren't dedicated high end shops, they satisfied a need and generated deeper interest beyond what brands they carried. A variety of stores planted seeds that there was more than just what Best Buy carried and research was needed. As you know, three of those five are no longer around. 2008 changed the industry and did create a barrier for entry-level consumers since now we basically just have Best Buy. Our culture as a whole is homogenizing as you see the same stores and restaurants in each city you travel in.

Regarding financial freedom, one only needs to compare the purchasing power of a dollar then vs. now to see why that is a barrier. A 'small' night out with the wife tends to run us about $250 for a few hours. This includes dinner, an activity, and paying a sitter. Daycare for young families also eats up massive income, running about $200 per week. Diapers are now $30 a box. You can obviously go on but I think all here understand that aspect.

With these barriers, there are still those of us in my generation that are planting strong roots and carrying the torch forward. Young dealers tend to attract young clients and as our numbers increase, so will our client base. There are young dealers who play at high levels, such as myself at AudioThesis, Aaron Sherrick at Now Listen Here, and Nathan Vander Stoep at NVS Sound. Youtube has many young stars such as ZeroFidelity, Jay's Iyagi, and Andrew Robinson. There are paradigm shifts in the industry as we reshape the model to fit these younger buyers, but don't be fooled into thinking there isn't interest budding. It just looks vastly different than it did in years past.

Also keep in mind that it is easy to forget how far you've come as an audiophile. My reference system now retails for around $240,000. That is a level far above what my average client can afford, but I think it fits into an average system investment at WBF. My generation is rarely investing that kind of money because we don't have it. Give us another 20-30 years though....

Your post is good insight for me because I obviously don't know much about the younger generation. One thing that you reminded me of--there used to be an ABC Carpet & Rug in lower Manhattan that was like a Thieve's Market of stuff- from cheap exotic furniture to Herman Miller and everything in between and even that store had an area which was a "lifestyle" section to show how home theatre and some hi-end-ish gear could fit into the home. I know retail in everything has gotten turned on its head- I rarely go out "shopping" but someone here or on another forum might have mentioned getting some hi-fi into other stores simply to showcase it. I thought 'pop up' type stores might make sense too--you give me more optimism that there is interest in our "hobby." Fair point about generating the money to buy. I found a photo of my system back in 1975- I was 20 years old:

45549279075_a1261cb64a_c by William Hart, on Flickr

(Sorry for the image quality- it was a Polaroid that I took an iPhone image of).

 

[Joe Whip]

I for one feel the future of audio playback is bright but will be different that what audiophiles have preferred over the past 40 years I have been involved in this hobby. For me, the whole point has always been the enjoyment of music. I really do not care all that much about the gear. If it makes my listening experiences enjoyable, that is all I care about. Oh, and that it is reliable. As they say in sports, the best ability is availability. Hence I look for equipment with long term value and reliability. As a result, I keep my equipment for a long time. We will continue to have folks will value good sound but in more convenient and less expensive kit. I am all for that. As for video, I do not understand the dislike for it in audio forums. I am rebuilding my HT room around an 83” OLED and in the process of adding Atmos. Damn, it is fun to experience. Atmos music decoding can add so much to the experience. As an example take the recent Billy Joel Live at Yankee Stadium on blu ray. Shot with 16mm film, I was not expecting a fabulous picture even with a 4K scan. It is good enough, but the Atmos mix places you right in the crowd, it is almost like a remembered from being at his shows over the years. The stereo mix is terrible as was the DD mix in the old DVD. The Atmos mix is what live concert sound in the home can be. And it can be accomplished with inexpensive speakers and an AVR. Amazing value compared to high end audio.

 

[DSkip]

I for one feel the future of audio playback is bright but will be different that what audiophiles have preferred over the past 40 years I have been involved in this hobby. For me, the whole point has always been the enjoyment of music. I really do not care all that much about the gear. If it makes my listening experiences enjoyable, that is all I care about. Oh, and that it is reliable. As they say in sports, the best ability is availability. Hence I look for equipment with long term value and reliability. As a result, I keep my equipment for a long time. We will continue to have folks will value good sound but in more convenient and less expensive kit. I am all for that. As for video, I do not understand the dislike for it in audio forums. I am rebuilding my HT room around an 83” OLED and in the process of adding Atmos. Damn, it is fun to experience. Atmos music decoding can add so much to the experience. As an example take the recent Billy Joel Live at Yankee Stadium on blu ray. Shot with 16mm film, I was not expecting a fabulous picture even with a 4K scan. It is good enough, but the Atmos mix places you right in the crowd, it is almost like a remembered from being at his shows over the years. The stereo mix is terrible as was the DD mix in the old DVD. The Atmos mix is what live concert sound in the home can be. And it can be accomplished with inexpensive speakers and an AVR. Amazing value compared to high end audio.

With my younger clients, I am often pulling them AWAY from such systems for music playback. They want something these types of systems can't deliver, and they find it here. It isn't right or wrong, but I don't find heavy processing/mixing to be the solution - just a different avenue. These clients often haven't experienced quality stereo or even understand what the term even means. They follow the Best Buy trend of receiver/speaker with little to no investment in 'accessories'.

As an aside, you could also argue that my generation has been the biggest boon for the headphone market growth over recent years. Many I know do this because living situations prevent a stereo, not because they don't appreciate hifi stereo systems.

 

[Joe Whip]

Could be. I am fortunate enough to have a 2 channel room and a separate HT room. I enjoy both equally. A quality AVR gives one great bang for the buck.

 

[properlydeafened]

I'm 'only' 45 (coincidently also in Austin)...maybe we'll get some good deals on high end gear when the 'geezers' here are gone and nobody else is interested.

I think there may be more life out there than you think. It's been interesting to watch companies like Schiit market to a younger crowd and deliver products at a price point they can afford. How good they are can be debated, but it's a gateway and a jumping off point. I also think @DSkip is right about the headphone market. There are a LOT of young people on Head-Fi with some really nice headphone rigs on their desk in what looks like a dorm room or their bedroom at their parents house. Those people will grow in their careers and living situations and expand to larger systems. The return of vinyl sales (even if mostly casual listeners) has proven that even in the age of streaming people have a craving for things that are tangible and the experience of acquiring...some percentage of them are bound to get the bug for better sound and go down the rabbit hole like the rest of us. I think there is hope.

 

[Leekg]

 

[BillK]

When I was 16 my Dad thought audiophiles were nuts.

Now, because of me, he knows they are.

 

[BillK]

View attachment 102920

Charts like this are ridiculous as they don’t account for age or choice.

My Dad worked a full time job in a factory and then a part time job after that as an auto mechanic to keep food on the table and his family in a house a 30 minute drive from work so it was affordable. No vacations, no college, never would dream of spending more than the 5 cents the vending machine wanted for coffee, brown bagged lunch for over forty years and never paid interest on a credit card.

Still doesn’t own a cell phone let alone a smart phone.

Many in today’s generations make other lifestyle choices.

 

[Ron Resnick]

My Studer technician, who also is a recording engineer, told me yesterday that he does not like audiophiles.
He said I seemed a bit less annoying than the average audiophile. (I think it helped that I have an amateur radio license and that I used to build Heathkits.)