As We Get Older - Hearing Aids for High End Audio/Concerts & Home Theatre

[Steve Bruzonsky]

As We Get Older - Hearing Aids for High End Audio/Concerts & Home Theatre
The past five years, as I have slowed down, I have been going to lots of concerts at more "audiophile" settings with easy parking - primarily the Mesa Arts Center, Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum, and even some at a great local nonprofit jazz club The Nash. Jazz whether with or without vocals has been my very favorite music. Now I think I know why!!!!

I have known that I've had high frequency hearing loss for some time (I'm 65). Using a test disc, I can hear a 6 kHz test tone but 8 kHz although I can hear it’s much less in volume! And nothing beyond! At concerts, I too often have difficulty understanding the words! Very frustrating at times! I love fewer instruments with voices because I hear and understand the words better. Also, most days listening to music or watching tv/movies in my home theatre, I get some mild headaches, and also some tinnitus (not bells ringing, but a light to moderate whoosing sound of air that I am used to from a psychological standpoint doesn't really bother me).

I did some web sleuthing and came up with some interesting tidbits:

https://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociet...arry-deniston/ (article has link to click with detailed written presentation from some San Francisco audiologists)

https://www.stereophile.com/content/hearing-aids-4

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread...g-aids.638583/

https://forum.hearingtracker.com/t/h...udiophile/5872

https://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/hear...igh-end-audio/

So I decided to see an ENT doctor to have my ears cleaned (its been about 2 years since last done, a good idea periodically for audiophiles) and see their Audiologist for a hearing test & audiogram, which I did Tuesday this week. Turns out I have mild to moderate high frequency hearing loss. Keep in mind doctors and their equipment only measure to 8k and hearing aids are designed and speced only to 8k (not the full 20k of potential human hearing).

The ENT doctor told me that given my audiophile tendencies, whether a hearing aid would be a positive worthwhile improvement for me might well be subjective, and that I should meet with the Audiologist and she could provide me demo hearing aids at no cost to try.

I immediately thereafter met with the Audiologist (as opposed to a tech you probably get at Costco and some other places, an Audiologist has a Ph.D., and my Audiologist has been one for 17 years). I explained my audiophile needs and concerns in detail and my questions re whether hearing aids might help with my headaches, tinnitus, difficulty understanding some singing words primarily at live concerts, etc. She felt that hearing aids would be of help. In view of my subjective needs and hearing loss, she programmed and provided a pair of Phonak Audeo B-R hearing aids for me to try, with follow up in two weeks. She explained that she programmed them for me as a hearing aid beginner and would make some changes when she sees me again in two weeks. The Phonak hearing aids are pretty neat as they have different modes, including for music, and switch automatically and so far I can't even tell when there is a mode switch!

https://www.phonak.com/us/en/hearing...k-audeo-b.html

Note that my Medicare will not cover the cost of hearing aids. An out-of-pocket "audiophile" expense!

My initial "observations" over using them to watch some tv shows so far, listen to 2 channel music, and attend one live concert last night - Rodney Crowell and what a concert! - are as follows:

Watching tv: Commercials are no longer way louder than the tv program, sound level is about the same! The same volume on my surround processor seems somewhat "easier"/less fatiguing? (sort of a guess as to how to describe). Other than commercials, would this be a reason to get hearing aids - questionable at this short time of use.

Listening to two channel music: Nice improvement, like moving up to a better, smoother, better high end response DAC. E.G., I can now discern brush strokes like on cymbals better than in years! Music and vocals show the better DAC improvement. A given volume level is "easier"/less fatiguing than before (when it didn't seem fatiguing at all before). So far for my two channel music alone I want the hearing aids!

Rodney Crowell concert last night: Rodney was accompanied by two othe outstanding performers, with Rodney singing alone except on a few songs.
I found the instruments to sound more vibrant, dynamic and 3D than I am used to. I could hear guitar plucks and the like more clear and better than ever. But most significant, I understood every single word, whether just Rodney singing, or all three singing! My brain didn't have to work trying to understand words sung. I didn't give up trying to understand the words. This single improvement was revelatory! And frankly, I couldn't have anticipated this "wordy" improvement, it was so "out of wordy/worldy" for me.

Now I get why jazz and vocal jazz has been my favorite music these past years. Aside from the fact that I love jazz, jazz without singing has no words to try to understand, and jazz with singing is often (not always) easier to understand words than say hard rock with more instruments and louder music!

I am so far reasonably impressed!

What about you? How old are you? Do you listen to much two channel music in your audio or home theatre system? Do you attend many live concerts and if so, in more "audiophile" settings as opposed to overly loud and boisterous rock concerts? Have you tested your high frequency hearing loss?

Following is an easy test for high frequency hearing loss to "see" if perhaps you might want to see an Audiologist (and also get your ears cleaned say every 6 months to year by an ENT doctor):

http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/...-hearing-test/

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

A few more articles I just found dealing with hearing aid issues re music vs speech:

https://www.healthyhearing.com/report/52460-Improving-the-sound-of-music-with-hearing-aids

http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm12-8/sm12-8_hearingaids_en.html

I am listening to some higher frequency harp music, Lavinia Meijer "Philip Glass: Metamorphosos; The Hours", from NativeDSD.com. Hauntingly beautiful music! I read that such high frequencies may be problematic or require adjustment in programming for hearing aids. Sounds great without the Phoneks. With the Phoneks, sounds a bit different, may well be my better hearing. But I also seems to be hearing and feeling more vibrations, so of neat, but sort of seem to be giving me a minor bit of a headache. Without the Phoneks no headache issue at all, but don't feel the vibrations as much. This is the sort of thing I need to keep track of and discuss with my Audiologist as she can make adjustments. Although I have the Phoneks back in now and I seem to be doing better - may be my ear/brain getting used to the "improved" sound?

 

[NorthStar]

Last time I've checked I could hardly discern a 12 kHz tone.
Today I doubt that I can hear 10 kHz.
I don't wear a hearing aid, but I do wear prescription glasses.

I'm very young still...mid sixties. I listen to stereo music less than when I was younger but with even more interest. Less but better. ...Same with movies, but more emphasis on the soundtracks.
Live concerts are like movie theaters; I buy less and less tickets.
Today with all the access from the internet, music hits home and on the move...in our cars or bicycles.

I still love Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and Black Sabbath. ...But not with the same intensity of a 16-year old. With the intensity of a 61-year old...more or less. Opera music and classical (orchestral and chamber), plus jazz and blues are what gives me the biggest kicks in my chords. I also very much like Tango music. I love accordion and also gypsy guitars. I'm into electronica and acoustic piano and cello.

* Good read Steve.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

In my car last night I was playing some jazz, and moving the hearing aids in and out of my ears, no questions the cymbals and highs were noticeably better on this particular jazz cut (FM radio) using my hearing aids. Then in my theater when I got home, I played some Diana Panton and I heard this same exact phenomena.

For many years in a car, I've been able to talk to the person next to me, but I unfocus on anyone else because I simply have difficulty making out what they say.
Last night, I rode in the front in my daughter Adria's Mazda CX-5 with her husband Patrick driving, and six week old grandson in the back with my daughter and her friend Rachel. Patrick and I talked, and Adria and Rachel talked, and I could make out and understand what everyone was saying without even trying. In the past the rear sear conversation would have just been bothersome background noise!

Turns out my daughter's friend Rachel is a rare teacher working with children who does sign language. So as I discussed my "new" demo hearing aids, turns out my Audiologist is on her list to recommend for her students, that Phonak (that I have) is the brand they widely recommend and what is generally used, and she discussed the differences make for children who are hard of hearing. Interesting!

 

[NorthStar]

More than interesting, a new hearing life...closer to the music, to people.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

As I am discussing this also at a different AV forum, I am keeping my comments current at that forum and here is the link if you are interested in following my hearing aid adventure and comments. The latest post there is comparing my Costco eval today to the Audiologist.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-u...audio-concerts-home-theatre.html#post57132152

 

[rockitman]

Thanks for sharing Steve. Very informative. This is a concern for all of us now or eventually.

 

[NorthStar]

Steve your thread got me passionately interested.
I searched online for the best and it brought me right here

Plus tips

And more tips

 

[astrotoy]

Thanks for the posting. I've been using hearing aids for the last 5 years or so. Started in my late '60's. I first went to Costco which had the best value, but they didn't have hearing aids that were good for music, both hi-fi and live concerts (classical only for me). So after having a pair of Costco hearing aids for a couple of years, I went to an audiologist (at UCSan Francisco) and was fitted with a more upscale pair of aids which the audiologist adjusted the volume and frequency response to better match my music needs. I went back and forth a couple of times after going to concerts and listening to my system, until the adjustments were best for me. My hearing loss is more in one ear than the other, so the adjustments are different. Fortunately my insurance covers the majority of the cost of the hearing aids, so I don't have that much out of pocket. The audiologists at UCSF are all AuD's, Doctors of Audiology, as opposed to the audiologists at Costco who have a masters degree. I think the difference is more training. According to wiki the AuD is now the first professional degree as of about a decade ago. They are not MD's.

I have a pair of Oticon hearing aids and can do some adjustments with my iphone through their app. There are test tones on my tape recorder calibration tapes, and I can now hear 12K, where before I couldn't hear 10K. Can't hear 15K however. It definitely makes listening to music much more enjoyable.

One quick way to test your hearing is to listen to the dial tone of your landline phone and switch between ears to determine whether the sound is different, both in volume and frequency response.

Larry

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Costco has technicians with one month training and one year working with an experienced technician. That's it. I know because I had an exam at Costco this Monday and I asked lots of questions.

OK. I had my Costco hearing aid eval onday (Nov 19) with a tech "Bob". Initially I didn't tell them I had seen an Audiologist and worn hearing aids the past 6 days, not until my hearing evaluation was done with his recommendation did I discuss this with him.

"Bob" is a very very nice person. He has been with Costco some years, moving up to do this the past 8 years. Very honest. Very up front about his knowledge and experience. He was trained for one month coursewise - then spent a year working with an experienced hearing aid tech before being on his own. He admitted Costco is a "volume" hearing aid seller - you come in for the exam, they can give you some demos to try, and then if you buy the setup once and that's it. No further adjustments re your concerns. Costco sells hearing aids strictly for speech intelligibility, he couldn't respond to my audiophile concerns at all. When he was in Scottsdale 55% of his customers bought hearing aids from Costco; in Mesa now this is higher at 70%. And for children with hearing issues, Costco will not sell hearing aids for them without a written prescription and permission from an Audiologist.

The test chamber at the Audiologist was far more damped and was above floor level some, which the Audiologist explained was necessary for proper testing re ear pressure. Costco's test chamber was ground level and not hardly damped in comparison. Whereas the Audiologist was outside the test chamber for the testing, at Costco he was sitting a foot across from me, hitting buttons for the test. And the Costco test earphones/earbuds seemed quite skimpy compared to those at the Audiologist. The Costco tech told me their test tones only go to 6.3 kHz, yet literature and their own test graph, and my Audiologist, confirm testing is to 8 kHz.

The results: Mild to Moderate hearing loss within the tested ranges. Same as Audiologist.

The Costco tech told me within his training and experience he does not even recommend hearing aids. Then I politely educated him how I had been tested 6 days ago by an Audiologist, how I'd been wearing demo Phonak hearing aids since then, how they improved both music/audio and speech intelligibility whether in a car or restaurant or especially at the Rodney Crowell concert where I understood every single word sung without effort.
He was quite amazed! He agreed that I am one of those cases, as an audiophile, where I am far better served with the Audiologist.

My Costco sells the Phonak Brio 3 R-C, and several other brands of hearing aids, including their house brand Kirkland, which are the cheapest. These Phonaks sell for $1,249.99 to $1,349.99, with accessories from $84.00 to $249.99. Costco's Phonak model appears to emphasize speech not music as you go to Costco's website and then it links to a special Phonak website (for Costco only) for the Brio 3 R-C model, which is not listed on the Phonak website:

https://www.costco.com/phonak.html and https://www.brio.phonak.com/us/en.html

https://www.phonak.com/us/en/hearing...k-audeo-b.html

As the Phonek website states, the Phonak Audio B (that I am demoing):

"Phonak Audéo B hearing aids were created to simplify your life and make hearing effortless. What makes Audéo B so special is its unique operating system called AutoSense OS. It senses your surroundings and adjusts your hearing aids every step of the way. All you have to do is turn them on, and the rest is automatic."

The Costco/Phonak website makes no mention of their model having Autosense OS, which I understand has an awful lot of modes including music depending upon what you are hearing and auto adjusts modes so you can't even tell (I sure can't). And the Costco tech didn't seem to have knowledge of this feature.

Now price is another story. It may be you get what you pay for. My Audiologist told me the price, discounted some from MSRP, would be in the range of $2,000 to $2,900 for Phonek hearing aids, depending upon which model I get. The Costco tech thought the Audiologist must have meant per each hearing aid, not for both! I don't think so. I'll find out next week on Tuesday when i go back in to my Audiologist. My Audiologist said she would be following up with me and making adjustments, and that the intitial adjustments already made were for me as a beginner and more adjustments/programming would be made.

I have been a Costco member since like 1981. Love Costco. But when it comes to more expensive items like appliances, I have often found as good or better prices and features elsewhere. You've got to shop!

Also, although Costco online shows it carries like five different company hearing aid models, what each Costco store carries depends on the buyer for each store. The Costco I went to carries all of them. The Costco tech said another store in Mesa only carries Rexton!

 

[vdorta]

There are so many different things involved in hearing aids, and then we audiophiles add our own requirements on top of it all! Thank God, there are new laws and regulations liberalizing the hearing aid market and prices are coming down.

I don't want to add anything to Steve's excellent post except for one thing, so the following is only addressed to audiophiles. I am familiar with different brands of hearing aids and have been using the Eargo Plus hearing aid for close to three years. There is no comparison between it and the rest, because of their patented holding system made of tiny flexible fibers, that make the hearing aid "float" in the middle of the ear canal. The difference is that low-frequency sounds pass through unimpeded, and only high-frequency sounds are amplified. The result is natural sound, something no other hearing aid can offer because they behave like plugs and have to synthesize the whole frequency range. Yes, anything helps, but as we audiophiles know, there is a big difference between sound and high-end sound.
+

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

There are so many different things involved in hearing aids, and then we audiophiles add our own requirements on top of it all! Thank God, there are new laws and regulations liberalizing the hearing aid market and prices are coming down.

I don't want to add anything to Steve's excellent post except for one thing, so the following is only addressed to audiophiles. I am familiar with different brands of hearing aids and have been using the Eargo Plus hearing aid for close to three years. There is no comparison between it and the rest, because of their patented holding system made of tiny flexible fibers, that make the hearing aid "float" in the middle of the ear canal. The difference is that low-frequency sounds pass through unimpeded, and only high-frequency sounds are amplified. The result is natural sound, something no other hearing aid can offer because they behave like plugs and have to synthesize the whole frequency range. Yes, anything helps, but as we audiophiles know, there is a big difference between sound and high-end sound.
+

Thanks for your info on Eargo Plus. However, I can only tell you that I have no issues with low frequency and bass and mid bass sounds so far at all, at two live concerts, watching tv and 4k discs, and two channel in my theater. If anything, everything is better and nothing worse.

Did you have your hearing checked by an Audiologist and what were the findings? Do Eargo hearing aids have you see an Audiologist and require setup by an Audiologist? Or did you simply play some test tones (as I initially did) and realize you had some high frequency hearing loss? My impression from review of the website is they do not recommend or set you up to see a local Audiologist- that the consumer sets them up. And the Eargo Plus hearing aids are still $1,950! https://eargo.com/?utm_adgroup=Eargo Hearing Aids-Exact&utm_ad=Brand&utm_keyword=eargo hearing aids&utm_placement=o&utm_adgroupid=1238050216702652&utm_device=c&utm_adid=77378194131786&utm_location=77892&msclkid=7544c58c2745194bef179e79e7e25480&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SEM-Brand-Lead&utm_term=eargo hearing aids&utm_content=Eargo Hearing Aids-Exact

The Phonak demos I have also fit in my ear so they also do not plug the ear canal - which I'm sure which is why my Audiologist recommended this type as opposed to earplug types.

 

[vdorta]

Steve, you're welcome, and of course I believe you when you say your are hearing much better than before. Remember that I'm comparing Eargo audiophile-friendly hearing aids with normal, earplug-type hearing aids that go from $500 to $5,000 and way beyond. Yes, there are cheaper ones and every single one of them helps with hearing (I know it very well and thank them all!) but, as I said, I am only addressing high-end sound requirements as befits the What's Best Forum. By the way, I'm working on a post regarding cellular phones, where only one brand stands tall against all the others regarding high-end audio, but you'll have to read the post.

OK, because of your question, I'll go beyond my previous limits on this. The "audiologist check" is one of the many tricks the oligopolies use to force us to pay tons of money for hearing aids, as you'll get the hearing test, and then buy the hearing aid through the audiologist. This has been taken care of by the new laws and regulations. All you need is to check your hearing with a specialist, but now you don't have to buy any one among a certain number of "accepted" hearing aid brands. Because all hearing aids have to pass government tests and be approved for sale. Are there good and bad ones? Yes, as in everything we buy every day. I have seen $12,000 for hearing aids; the price you show for Eargos should be peanuts for audiophiles who are willing to pay hundreds of thousands for systems they can't hear well, or am I not right?

Update: I forgot to say that, for an extra charge, Eargo will adapt the hearing aid to your individual hearing if you supply them with a copy of the test.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Steve, you're welcome, and of course I believe you when you say your are hearing much better than before. Remember that I'm comparing Eargo audiophile-friendly hearing aids with normal, earplug-type hearing aids that go from $500 to $5,000 and way beyond. Yes, there are cheaper ones and every single one of them helps with hearing (I know it very well and thank them all!) but, as I said, I am only addressing high-end sound requirements as befits the What's Best Forum. By the way, I'm working on a post regarding cellular phones, where only one brand stands tall against all the others regarding high-end audio, but you'll have to read the post.

OK, because of your question, I'll go beyond my previous limits on this. The "audiologist check" is one of the many tricks the oligopolies use to force us to pay tons of money for hearing aids, as you'll get the hearing test, and then buy the hearing aid through the audiologist. This has been taken care of by the new laws and regulations. All you need is to check your hearing with a specialist, but now you don't have to buy any one among a certain number of "accepted" hearing aid brands. Because all hearing aids have to pass government tests and be approved for sale. Are there good and bad ones? Yes, as in everything we buy every day. I have seen $12,000 for hearing aids; the price you show for Eargos should be peanuts for audiophiles who are willing to pay hundreds of thousands for systems they can't hear well, or am I not right?

Update: I forgot to say that, for an extra charge, Eargo will adapt the hearing aid to your individual hearing if you supply them with a copy of the test.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

You are entitled to your opinion. You certainly requote and believe Eargo's sales pitch at https://eargo.com/pres Anyone who may have hearing issues can evaluate all of this stuff and determine what's right for them and what they can afford. But to put down Audiologists with a Ph.D. and years of experience is rediculous. Whatever works for you. Eargo has a direct sales method, Costco have their method, and Audiologists have their method. Me, with all the $$ I spend on this hobby, I am willing to pay extra for the best, not a Costco hearing aid tech, not a mail order adjustment.

 

[vdorta]

Not really, I don't "requote and believe." As I said, I have used it for three years. The key thing to understand is that before the new rules, the hearing aid manufacturers and doctors were on top of consumers and that's why the aids used to cost so much. But hey, this isn't a life or death thing.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Not really, I don't "requote and believe." As I said, I have used it for three years. The key thing to understand is that before the new rules, the hearing aid manufacturers and doctors were on top of consumers and that's why the aids used to cost so much. But hey, this isn't a life or death thing.

You are referring to:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/health-fitness/fda-hearing-aid-regulation-changes/


"Have you heard? Big changes are in the winds to improve access to hearing aids. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recently issued a guidance statement with two elements that promise to dramatically change the way people in the U.S. get help with hearing loss. Changes in required medical exams and a potential new category of over-the-counter hearing aids are primed to shake up the status quo.

According to the FDA, 30 million people in the U.S. have significant hearing loss, which can affect communication, social participation, overall health, and quality of life. However, only about 20 percent of people with significant hearing loss who could benefit from hearing aids seek help. After three years of studies by a range of agencies and groups, including the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST) and the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (NAS), a consensus was reached that the FDA’s own regulations regarding the sale of hearing aids were a potential barrier to their availability and accessibility, with little to no patient benefit.

The studies found the cost of hearing aids, which can easily exceed $2,000 each ($4,000 for a pair), is far beyond the means of many people. The high cost plus the current FDA requirement that anyone seeking a hearing aid must have a medical evaluation or sign a waiver were both part of the problem.
The PCAST studies also concluded that the current barriers to distribution “may limit new entrants who could achieve technological breakthroughs that could offer a greater variety of lower-cost hearing aid options to those suffering from hearing loss.” We need only look at the new “hearing assistance” devices coming in 2017 from Bose, Human Inc., Doppler Labs, and others to see evidence of tech companies developing products that may serve significant numbers of the hearing impaired population at a fraction of the cost of hearing aids and with none of the medical or consultation requirements.

Effective December 7, 2016, only people under 18 will still need medical evaluations, a the FDA will no longer enforce the regulations for those 18 or older. The change is “Immediately in Effect,” which according to the FDA “means it is implemented without prior public comment because it presents a less burdensome policy that is consistent with public health.

The FDA is going to seek additional public input on over-the-counter hearing aids, but intends to address the recommendations from both the PCAST and NAS studies that the FDA establish a “regulatory framework” for over-the-counter hearing aids without requiring evaluation or consultation.

Chances are this opening door to the hearing aid/assistance market will attract some companies that just want to pile on, so consumers who choose to explore alternatives to traditional hearing aids will still want to be cautious. However, the potential to spend hundreds rather than thousands of dollars to regain sufficient hearing to improve communication, and to enjoy everything else that better hearing entails, for the “other 80 percent,” is an exciting prospect."

_________________

This doesn't mean using a top notch Audiologist and buying a more expensive hearing aid may not be the best option for a dedicated Audiophile with the budget to do so - (as you would say), this is the "What's Best Forum", an audiophile forum for crazy audiophiles too many of whom may spend (too?) much money on their audiophile hobby! And Costco has used techs, not Audiologists, for years to sell and set up hearing aids. Now less expensive hearing aid devices can be marketed and sold to anyone under 18 and not subject to any FDA approval or regulation. As the above article states, "Chances are this opening door to the hearing aid/assistance market will attract some companies that just want to pile on, so consumers who choose to explore alternatives to traditional hearing aids will still want to be cautious."

Doppler Labs started marketing an inexpensive such device (like $500, not the$2,000 range of Eargo) about 4-5 years ago, but the device was discontinued. I had a preorder in for the device but cancelled it after reading some early reviews. https://hereplus.me/

I found some more info on your Eargo:

https://www.hearingtracker.com/direct-to-consumer-hearing-aids/eargo-hearing-device
https://www.hearingtracker.com/direct-to-consumer-hearing-aids/eargo-plus

 

[BlueFox]

Knock on wood, but at 69 my hearing is still decent.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Excellent article on over the counter hearing aids/devices:

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/otc-hearing-aids-are-coming-but-theyre-not-for-everyone/

Excellent articles discussing how earing aids work and types of hearing aids:

http://www.hearingreviews.com/best-hearing-aids/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hearing-loss/in-depth/hearing-aids/art-20044116

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

My demo hearing aids are Phonak Audeo B-R (B for Bolero, R for rechargeable).

Next week Phonak's new Marvel series is coming out, with nice improvements albeit somewhat higher price. I will be discussing this with my Audiologist next Tuesday.

Detailed info on the new Marvel series:

https://www.hearingaidknow.com/phonak-launches-marvel